Curse

william1975 · Aug 28, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

ran about doig the primary stuff ont his all weekend on my mesmer, had no trouble with these drakes, though sometimes they used nasty obsidian flesh but i just battled through it, mind you my mesmer is maxed out on fast casting and uses the sunspear and kurzick skills in conjunction with arcane echo, to do mass damage to them.

i did have troubles at first with Jotun, but this was simply due to overconfidence and tackling three groups of them, got owned pretty quickly since then i learned to tackle them one group at a time at to take out the mesmers first.

Actually had most difficult taking out bison in the norn tournament with my mesmer, but decided to give up on hexing and build a new mesmer spirit spam, cost a fortune but wipes out bison every time, unfortunatley doesnt seem to work as well on Argo or Danika, damn its hard to kill a monk and two necro's solo

yesitsrob · Aug 28, 2007, 02:29 AM // 02:29

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And TNTF sucks hard on anything else than a para

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I am ashamed how Yesitsrob and all people here bash

You're so bad.

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I find it higly unlikely that warrior can spam 15 energy skill every 4 seconds, with or without zealous.

10 seconds actually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yichi

BTW Paragons r imba.

No wai! paragonz are bad at pve, thats what the people on guru said!

Solar_Takfar · Aug 28, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wulfgast

Okay, aside from all of this junk, who else laughed out loud when a Chromatic Scale dropped? :P

While I didn't get that drop, I can see the idea behind it (bass player

)

Komradkyle · Aug 28, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

a mm and 2 hench monks took the pressure off of me no problem i would usually loose like 1 character but I was rushing to get more bonus points fromt he time attack and stuff

Midnight08 · Aug 28, 2007, 03:39 AM // 03:39

I love these things... Theyre insane and its become my goal to find a hero based team that can handle em - IMHO i am glad there is something that works a bit differently here - sliver armor is probably the worst part of them for AI opponents but all in all 1 of the most interesting creatures ive seen yet.

Emanuel Zorg · Aug 28, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by knockturnal

Gwen was horrid, but Norgu is the man. He shuts down everything for me, no problems at all.

Then you need to revise her skill bar. Individual heroes aren't good or bad; it's all about the skills you give them.

Dougal Kronik · Aug 28, 2007, 06:06 AM // 06:06

I usually use the mobs of Chromatic Drakes to get rid of any DP is anyone in my Hero/Hench party has died.

knockturnal · Aug 28, 2007, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel Zorg

Then you need to revise her skill bar. Individual heroes aren't good or bad; it's all about the skills you give them.

What makes you think I had different bars on them?

I tried running Gwen on Domi with the exact bar I use on Norgu (as the bar seems to work for me in all other elements that I play). Gwen didn't pass, therefore she'll be designated to Illusion or something.

And while I understand the point you're making, it does seem certain heroes favor certain lines of skills. Ever run Dunkoro on Prot? I have. Not good.

tmakinen · Aug 28, 2007, 08:12 AM // 08:12

It's an interesting suggestion that hero NPCs would have individualized AI instead of a generic one. However, to gauge the merit of that hypothesis one should first:
1. eliminate other possible causes of difference in performance like different equipment, runing/insignias or behavior setting (attack/defend/avoid)
2. eliminate external influences like changes in party makeup
3. conduct a statistically significant amount of tests with objective, measurable results

After all, Norgu is by default set on illusion and Gwen domination, so there shouldn't be any reason for why Norgu had an upper hand in dom. If you don't want to tinker with builds to suit every situation separately, just give Gwen Power Block in addition to the skills that she comes with and she works just fine.

Etta · Aug 28, 2007, 09:05 AM // 09:05

I didnt have that much trouble dealing with those drakes. I have gwen set as ineptitude-interrupter, myself a burning-interrupter ranger, a UG warden ele, the other also have a few interrupt skills in their bar apart from monks.

SotiCoto · Aug 28, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Surprise: I also frequently just c-space with necro, paragon, ele and ranger.

Not everyone has heroes with good bars, not everyone brings the better henchies. People who try to c-space with crappy heroes/henchies are obviously going to die. I run master with heal party, vekk with aegis and extinguish, a monk hero, 1-2 monk henchies, and the rest are usually random. I never have a problem unless I aggro 2-3 groups. I am very well aware that people can exaggerate, but why the hell would people want to exaggerate for this? Chromatic drakes are easy, no need for exaggeration. You can believe that people with better team builds then you do can c-space them, or you can not believe. The people who do it know its true, and thats all that matters.

The terms "build" and "C-space" really don't go together.
If you're using a build, you're not c-spacing. If you're c-spacing, then that implies a complete lack of skill use. It certainly does NOT count as c-spacing if you have a full team of at least moderately competant herohench to do the skill-using and killing for you. I mean.... I've quite often waltzed through Nightfallen Jahai for Lightbringer points not doing anything personally but Ctrl+Shift+Spacing .... but that isn't the same as bringing a team full of c-spacers with no skill-use.

How much more clear can I make myself?

-_-;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The Charr and Destroyers were a lot more dangerous than either...though the Charr made only a token appearance in the preview, and Destroyers didn't show up in appreciable numbers to really be dangerous.

Wailed handily on both. Only the Mesmer Destroyers and the Cores with Knockdown were anything even close to a problem. The Charr though.... no problem at all. I practically ate the lot of 'em for lunch... Never got to see that R9 emote that people go on about.

No.... quite seriously... the Drakes I found tougher than either of the above groups (or indeed the laughably poorly skilled Jotun). I just don't deal well with multiple elementalists.

SetsunaSamurai · Aug 28, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Off Topic: I gave Gwen my shut-down build and she wasn't playing too hot. It's been suggested prior to this thread that certain Heros and Henchies have certain AI's (Ogden is about as bad as Alesia), and I think this helps push that arguement into the right direction. Jora, on the other hand, is easily the best Warrior AI in the game.

On topic: The Drakes can be trouble for a tank if you don't pay attention, but if you watch for Sliver Armor they are no more dangerous than anything else. Honestly, the only mob I had trouble with during the entire Preview was the Sepulchre boss. The rest was disappointingly easy.

arcanemacabre · Aug 28, 2007, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

The terms "build" and "C-space" really don't go together.
If you're using a build, you're not c-spacing. If you're c-spacing, then that implies a complete lack of skill use. It certainly does NOT count as c-spacing if you have a full team of at least moderately competant herohench to do the skill-using and killing for you. I mean.... I've quite often waltzed through Nightfallen Jahai for Lightbringer points not doing anything personally but Ctrl+Shift+Spacing .... but that isn't the same as bringing a team full of c-spacers with no skill-use.

How much more clear can I make myself?

Eh, I use the term "c-space" to mean "no strategy," effectively using a team build that either works so well, or just so simple/powerful for the area I'm in that you don't need to pull, kite, worry about overaggroing or proper energy management, etc. Saying you can "c-space" something means it is so easy, you don't need any of those strategies and can just hit 1-2-3-4 while playing Solitaire and watching a movie. It's just a phrase, not to be taken that literally. At least, that's how I use it.

I would say most of the game is of this caliber, too. Not GWEN, so far. I love the "just hard enough to be interesting, but not DoA/Urgoz/Deep overkill" difficulty of it. Chromatic Drakes aren't exactly "c-space," but they aren't overkill, either. Just right, IMO.

thorion · Aug 28, 2007, 10:38 AM // 10:38

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Originally Posted by tuna-fish_sushi

I also believe they are overpowered I saw one go use obsidiand flesh + stoneflesh + ward of melee add in Mind Shock + Mind Freeze + Mind Burn +Firestorm

Although they are takin out pretty fast and theres no way you can interrupt a group of 6 of them.

Also, Never heard of Overpowered Monsters look at argo in the boreas seabed mission Instant casting Meteor shower and Double the damage = 300 damage Meteor show + 400 damage Fireball.
That is in Normal Mode, wouldnt dare fight him in hard.

I play a mesmer and with the cry of pain skill you can easily inerrupt a whole lot of drakes at the same moment.

.defekt · Aug 28, 2007, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

The terms "build" and "C-space" really don't go together.
If you're using a build, you're not c-spacing. If you're c-spacing, then that implies a complete lack of skill use.

so am i allowed to c-space if i bring no skills on my bar? i don't think i should bring a res cause that may turn my bar into a build and thats against the rules

fenix · Aug 28, 2007, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

And TNTF sucks hard on anything else than a para, because it's only 4 sec duration, and unless you have maxed Sunspear title so these 4 secs are worth it, it sux. And even more on a warrior, who will hard time to sutsain a 15 energy cost every 10 seconds (warriors have 2 pips of energy, so 0.66 points in 1 seconds, 7 in 10 secs).

You cannot be serious. Here's the math for you, since you don't understand.

1 TNTF on a Paragon = 35% less damage for 12 seconds (ish), then a 60 Heal
3 TNTFs on X/P = 35% less damage for 12 seconds, with 60 heal every 4 seconds, total of 180 heal after 12 seconds.

Now, which would you prefer? I know I'd like the constant 60 heals, since it negates party wide damage.

SotiCoto, here's a lesson for you:

C = Nearest Target
Space = Action, in this case, attack

C+Space = Attack nearest Target.

What's so hard to understand?

For EVERYONE, if you have trouble beating Chromatic Drakes, or anything in EOTN, then YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. It's all easy to beat, just don't run stupid builds. Run something that will counter what you're against. No one is stopping you...

mikez himself · Aug 28, 2007, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

You cannot be serious. Here's the math for you, since you don't understand.

1 TNTF on a Paragon = 35% less damage for 12 seconds (ish), then a 60 Heal
3 TNTFs on X/P = 35% less damage for 12 seconds, with 60 heal every 4 seconds, total of 180 heal after 12 seconds.

Now, which would you prefer? I know I'd like the constant 60 heals, since it negates party wide damage.

SotiCoto, here's a lesson for you:

C = Nearest Target
Space = Action, in this case, attack

C+Space = Attack nearest Target.

What's so hard to understand?

For EVERYONE, if you have trouble beating Chromatic Drakes, or anything in EOTN, then YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. It's all easy to beat, just don't run stupid builds. Run something that will counter what you're against. No one is stopping you...

Yeah, 'cause tntf has no recharge.

drakes are no problem, if you have a problem with them then have 1 person such as a warrior go and maintain agro of them all, with the hench/heros or players slightly behind then just well... kill them lol

glountz · Aug 28, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

You cannot be serious. Here's the math for you, since you don't understand.

1 TNTF on a Paragon = 35% less damage for 12 seconds (ish), then a 60 Heal
3 TNTFs on X/P = 35% less damage for 12 seconds, with 60 heal every 4 seconds, total of 180 heal after 12 seconds.

Now, which would you prefer? I know I'd like the constant 60 heals, since it negates party wide damage.

I won't do my Yesitsrob and just say you just suck at GW to make my point, but your math is incorrect.
TnTF has a 10 secs recharge. WHatever you're doing, you will heal only your 60 HP (which is considering you have grinded out max sunspear title, at 5 sunspear for a nongrinder it will heal 39 Hp and reduces only 24% damage) every 10 secs, no matter what. 10 seconds. What is varying is the duration of the damage reduction.
Unless you bring a QZ as Mistress Yitchi said, but then you'll need some energy AND be slower as QZ has itself a 5 sec cast (which forces people to wait before engaing a mob) and a 60 sec recharge. To max QZ use you need to pull mobs to where QZ is because of its so slow recharge. And then we're beginning to use tactics vastly complex and slow for something that doesn't need it (maybe for Urgoz and DoA, but certainly not for GWEN.)
Healing 40 HP on warr at a cost of 15 energy is like packing an instant Heal party on him: that's just not worth it.
I don't claim TNTF is not powerful, it is, no doubt.
But only a para can take out the most of it. It is acceptable on a caster with good e-management, added to the fact this caster will protect all the softies with him (no ear shot issues). But on a warrior? It is seriously the class the less suited for this shout, considering its energy management. You need to bring Save Yourselves on a warrior, not TNTF. Save yourselves on a Dragon Slash/For good justice is so good as you literally spam SY! (DS-SY!-DS-SY! etc...)
A critical Agility sin (for soti) is also particularly well suited to SY! as its +33% attack and +15-25 armor, added to the double strikes and no adre use outside of SY! will make you spam it almost every 4 secs. Even at Kurzick 1 its 75% of the time +100 armor to all your teamates.
TNTF must be kept for casters/midline like para or rangers.

Additionally, when you're packing TNTF on every character you can, as well as SY!, you begin to rely and build alls your support around the same skill/kind of skill. And them you take an aphony in the face, ruining the build. I hope A-Net will put more of these nasty necros out there.

yesitsrob · Aug 28, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

but your math is incorrect

I'm pretty sure and think it's pretty obvious that Fenix is actually suggesting you chain TNTF on 3 seperate characters, which is very much possible, and has been very common practice for some of the groups I play in. Namely when I play with [SMS] and [SoF] alliances. So while you can go an and tell us it won't work, I can confirm we've actually done it in the past with immense success.

As far as SY goes, well yes, our warriors take that too - since with FGJ and Dragon Slash it can be maintained for a solid 20 seconds 100% of the time. Now +100 AL on all your party for 20 seconds is pretty sick... if only the Chromatic Drakes could post on forums.

fenix · Aug 28, 2007, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I won't do my Yesitsrob and just say you just suck at GW to make my point, but your math is incorrect.
TnTF has a 10 secs recharge. WHatever you're doing, you will heal only your 60 HP (which is considering you have grinded out max sunspear title, at 5 sunspear for a nongrinder it will heal 39 Hp and reduces only 24% damage) every 10 secs, no matter what. 10 seconds. What is varying is the duration of the damage reduction.
Unless you bring a QZ as Mistress Yitchi said, but then you'll need some energy AND be slower as QZ has itself a 5 sec cast (which forces people to wait before engaing a mob) and a 60 sec recharge. To max QZ use you need to pull mobs to where QZ is because of its so slow recharge. And then we're beginning to use tactics vastly complex and slow for something that doesn't need it (maybe for Urgoz and DoA, but certainly not for GWEN.)
Healing 40 HP on warr at a cost of 15 energy is like packing an instant Heal party on him: that's just not worth it.
I don't claim TNTF is not powerful, it is, no doubt.
But only a para can take out the most of it. It is acceptable on a caster with good e-management, added to the fact this caster will protect all the softies with him (no ear shot issues). But on a warrior? It is seriously the class the less suited for this shout, considering its energy management. You need to bring Save Yourselves on a warrior, not TNTF. Save yourselves on a Dragon Slash/For good justice is so good as you literally spam SY! (DS-SY!-DS-SY! etc...)
A critical Agility sin (for soti) is also particularly well suited to SY! as its +33% attack and +15-25 armor, added to the double strikes and no adre use outside of SY! will make you spam it almost every 4 secs. Even at Kurzick 1 its 75% of the time +100 armor to all your teamates.
TNTF must be kept for casters/midline like para or rangers.

Additionally, when you're packing TNTF on every character you can, as well as SY!, you begin to rely and build alls your support around the same skill/kind of skill. And them you take an aphony in the face, ruining the build. I hope A-Net will put more of these nasty necros out there.

You saying I'm bad by using a quote from Rob would be HILARIOUS. As for saying W/P isn't as good as Paragon, then you're just plain wrong. It IS good on a Paragon, no doubt. But having the heal more often, is clearly better. Also, almost everyone I play with has at least rank 8 Sunspear. And I plan on keeping it that way. There is no reason to have low rank Sunspear, it's just too easy to get through playing the game, questing, and Hard Mode.

This Warrior bar basically wins the game better than anything else you could try to think of:

Dslash, Standing Slash, Sun and Moon, Flail, Save Yourself!, TNTF!, FGJ!, Res

It adds HUGE party support, and having 2 of them means that no one will die. Even if it gets nerfed, I'm not a bad player, so I'll just run something else.