Curse

Moloch Vein · Aug 25, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

^ I have, and I am aware of how the spell functions. The 2% does not count as sacrifice, however, the initial sacrifice most definitely counts. That means a casting of Order of Undeath will cost you 10-{Masochism return}

http://hellfire.darktech.org/gw/gw018.jpg

Are we clear?

[EDIT:] There is another thing I must add. The notions of "overpoweredness" etc must be taken into context. All classes get more powerful by the inclusion of new skills.

Moloch Vein · Aug 25, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Could someone please move this thread to Necromancer - PvE forum? It's where it belongs.

SotiCoto · Aug 25, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Pfah...

Necromancers have enough energy management anyway.
Soul Reaping gives a chunk in itself.
The signet may be conditional but works very nicely.

A meagre 1-3 energy for every health sacrifice ... or even 4 if high enough soul reaping... isn't even going to be noticed for anything other than maybe Cultist's Fervor.

Moloch Vein · Aug 26, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

SotiCoto, are you able to run an MM with constant coverage of Order of Undeath with no energy management and no energy problems?

Until you can, don't claim we couldn't use more energy.

Moloch Vein · Aug 30, 2007, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Again, I am please asking a moderator to move this thread to Necro PvE forum.

Muspellsheimr · Aug 30, 2007, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

SotiCoto, are you able to run an MM with constant coverage of Order of Undeath with no energy management and no energy problems?

Until you can, don't claim we couldn't use more energy.

Don't forget to mention that this also allows you to perma-BiP a full 8-player group. That is what I was running during the preview weekend, and it worked wonders.

Cebe · Aug 30, 2007, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwny Ride

And Hexer's Vigour hasnt sparked any remote interest? I'm pretty sure Hexers Vigour, being imba, will have more of an impact.

I suspect Hexer's Vigor may become very overpowered with Mesmers using Signet of Illusions whilst spamming Illusion Hexes.

Surely it would have to be altered to "ends if you cast no necromancer hexes"

Onto Masochism. Will be insane with Cultist's Ferver and Vampiric Spirit. Looking forward to using it very much, though I feel that this, like many many other Eye of the North skills will be nerfed into oblivion when wammos find out Mending can't outheal their effects in PvP...

cataphract · Aug 30, 2007, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens

I'm looking forward to testing it in FoW. Monks are always like "My Energy is x of x" like 50 times and its bad enough that I've died BR'ing them while Awaken The Blood is active but I gotta give up 10 of my energy. So I'll be able to keep both Monks BR'ed and make sure I don't bottom out myself. MMs don't really need it but I have to say it will be strong in Tomb, especially in HM. Those Scythe of Chaos are constantly casting Mind Wrack!

Word of advice: those monks are teh sux and you would do well to stop playing with them.

Chthon · Aug 30, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

After looking through the recent skill additions in GW:EN and having the opportunity to play with them, it is very obvious that none of the N skills are even remotely as important as Masochism. It is a ground-breaking skill and I believe it will change a LOT of Necromancer builds.

Some things to consider:

The penalty of Vampiric Spirit can be completely negated with Masochism while using sacrificing skills.

It does indeed. Too bad vampiric spirit isn't much good outside of RA/TA. "Nearby" is not terribly safe for necros in PvE. And the untargetability of vamp spirit has always bothered me. Maybe for a farm build?

Quote:

Cultist's Fervor in combination with Masochism creates a godly energy engine for powering high-cost spells, possibly from other caster schools.

I was using this on a 55 build in the bison tourny during the preview. The infinite energy engine was frighteningly powerful. But, ultimately, it used up both the elite slot and another skill slot, and that left my killing power so low I often had to map out since I couldn't kill strong self-healers.

Quote:

BiPpers will love bringing the skill in many areas.

I've never known bippers to really need e-management, but, if they do, this would be excellent.

Quote:

MMs, especially enchantment-reliant MMs, will find the skill extremely useful and it might even replace Signet of Lost Souls.

I absolutely agree on it as a replacement for SoLS. Tabbing around for a low-health foe is time consuming and distracting. Often a target gets healed or dies just as you cast. Sometimes what looks like 50% is really 53% or whatever (though lifebar mods help with that now). All in all, SoLS rarely operates anywhere near it's optimum rate of about 1e/sec. My intuition is that the long-term average on SoLS well under .5e/sec. Tied to the baseline 1 BotM every 6 sec, Maso is good for a consistent, reliable, passive .5e/sec at 12SR. IMO, a consistent, reliable, passive .5 is better than an inconsistent, unreliable active amount that (I think) averages under .5. Even if SoLS, with excellent use, averaged above .5, the reliability, consistency, and passiveness of Maso might put it ahead.

A few other thoughts on the topic of MM's and Maso:

I look at the breakpoints on Maso and I see that 13SR breakpoint, and I wonder if that's worth trying for. That means either a sup SR rune to keep 8 in the self-healing attribute or a major SR rune and only 6 in the self-healing attribute. Hmmmm...

I'm not sure if all of this is moot. I don't use SoLS. I just manage my SR energy very tightly. Generally there's enough for 10 minions, OoU, and a couple of direct damage/utility spells. If SoLS doesn't justify displacing one of those direct damage/utility spells, then I'm not sure Maso will either, even if it's better. Can I make up for giving up one of those direct damage/utility spells with increased OoU spam?

That brings me back to what I said when I first saw this skill. It's a slap in the face to everyone who objected to the SR nerf. "Here, if you play with a 7-slot bar, you can have this nice shiny skill that replaces the SR we took away from you."

= pissed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

If an MM can "ignore he has an energy bar" he is running a suboptimal build.

Agreed, 100%. If you're not using every last drop of energy, you need to improve your build. If you can't even understand that you should be using every last drop of energy, you're an idiot who needs to stop trying to play MM and go back to hamstorm.

Quote:

"Order Of Undeath: Skill details: Sacrifice 10% of your maximum Health. For 5 seconds..."

Indeed. The initial use of OoU is a sac, so it will trigger Maso once. I haven't the faintest clue why someone is trying to argue that it won't.

Quote:

Enchantment-reliant MMs are relying on Mystic Regeneration, and thus Masochism would provide them with one more +3.

The AotL/mystic regen MM is only worthwhile in AB. At least some of the foes in AB are smart enough to make a beeline for any MM they see, and it does a very good job of not dying to them. In PvE, the foes aren't smart enough to prioritize you over those 10 enticing low-armor meatbags, and you need to worry more about offsetting your life sacs in an energy efficient way than taking hits. If you've already got AotL on your bar, putting the energy into casting AotL on the recharge gets you much, much better life/energy returns than anything you can do by diverting that energy to mystic regen.

One final thought on Maso: It might finally make blood a viable skillline. Blood's always had trouble with energy, even back when SR worked right. Now dark pact and blood of the aggressor spam nearly for free, and for a net gain under cultists fervor. If we can find a way to get some decent DPS out of blood, the energy is finally there to support it.

zwei2stein · Aug 30, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Energy problems for bipers eventually happen. You usually see someone calling his energy with bip answring call with his low energy.

Masochism enables bip to keep on bipping 24/7 even without stuff dying.

The Lurch · Aug 31, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

When I read Masochism, I instantly combined it with Cultist's Fervor. Think about it, a necro Nuker. Hed have good energy management with Masochism and Cultist's Fervor, not to mention SoLS and Soul Reaping. The only think he would have an issue with is health, that is if he went straight SR and lets say, Fire Magic.

Moloch Vein · Sep 04, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Re: Chthon

First, the Bippers. While it's true that in most areas a bipper will seldom if ever run out of energy, it happens frequently in Domain of Anguish, especially in City. There are some powerful energy-denial environmental effects in many areas of Realm of Torment that makes bipping less than a walk in the park.

Second, about the infamous meleemancers. While putting a necromancer on the front line might be very foolish in many instances, there are, actually, ways to make it work by the /D combination. As a test, I used a Mystic-powered N/D melee build with a hero-hench party to complete Hell's Precipice, with the necromancer as the only frontline figure. This worked. (By the way, this was before the release of Eye of the North.)

There are some instances, when you fight with only hero-hench, where it's a huge benefit to be the one leading the charge for strategic purposes.

I resorted to the same strategy while completing a GW:EN Masters quest for Kilroy Stonekin where you had to kill a huge amount of Stone Summit who loved eating up your corpses before the hero-MM could get to them. This time I went with a Vampiric Spirit/Masochism/Mystic build utilizing Verata's Aura as a fourth enchant, and Angorodon's Gaze since I kept getting conditions on me (by the way - Angorodon's obsoletes Vampiric Gaze. Totally.) Initially I tried doing it with my standard SV build but it proved difficult. The melee character swiped it, easily. Again this is a specific advantage of being at the frontline - Verata's simply wouldn't have worked otherwise.

As for the viability of the /D Mystic MM, there's much to be said. I nearly always use /D for MM in every PvE area. It creates an anchor character that is ridiculously stable and hard to kill. However, I never use Aura of the Lich. My specific build is:

Dark Bond - Infuse Condition - Mystic Regeneration - Order of Undeath - Animate Bone Fiend - Animate Bone Horror - Signet Of Lost Souls - Blood of the Master

I have recently replaced Signet with Masochism and this does a better job.

The synergy between Mystic and the maintained enchantments is simply supreme. At 8 Earth Prayers it does a FAR better job healing you in battle than anything Healing Prayers has to offer. It counters degeneration, it muffles damage, it does everything.

Even if you only bring Dark Bond (which most MMs definitely do) and Masochism, Mystic Regeneration will heal you for 18*20=360HP over 20 seconds. This makes it easy to spam BotM and OoU. If you do add the fourth enchant, you pop it up to +12, which makes you have a positive health regeneration while bleeding and burning at the same time. (And as a side note, of course these conditions won't take effect until you've lost your last minion.)

My Olias runs the exact same build as I rarely play MM myself, preferring a Curses/Blood build that is difficult for hero AI to handle properly, and he's the most resistant hero on my team (if you discount the rare instances where I utilize Sousuke as an ele-tank.)

And again, please move this to Necromancer PvE?

Cheers!