Curse

lord dragon · Sep 10, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Lord your entire arguement has been blown out the water on that other thread. It isnt Anet whos is causing the unbalance and forcing people to use these skills and increas ranks.

Its elite players like yourself who are trying to force players in FOW, UW and faction elite zone into using pve only skills and then telling them "you cant join because your rank isnt high enough".

Despite the fact people were playing those zones long befor pve only skills were added! It not anet causing the problem. The problem is this usual attitude of...

"right we have new skills that will make elite zones easier, so you either use them, or you cant jon us and you need a high rank so get grinding"

...its just pathetic! You guys are the ones ruining it for everyone else, because you try to inforce your build and your opinion on them! Its not Anets idea of joining skills to titles which is the issue.

Its elite players forcing people to use those skills and then feeling pressured to increase them. So once again its the elite class who are causing the problems and blaming Anet.

I guess you spent to much time at the pub before you started posting and are not reading correctly. Put this one down to one you can read after you sober up a little bit.

I can not require anyone to have skills. I don't have them. So, if you are calling me an elitist as you have, how can I be elite if I don't have the skills because GWEN sucks and I refuse to GRIND?

Please don't answer now though, as like I said, want and answer after the effects have worn off.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

freekedoutfish · Sep 10, 2007, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

I guess you spent to much time at the pub before you started posting and are not reading correctly. Put this one down to one you can read after you sober up a little bit.

I can not require anyone to have skills. I don't have them. So, if you are calling me an elitist as you have, how can I be elite if I don't have the skills because GWEN sucks and I refuse to GRIND?

Please don't answer now though, as like I said, want and answer after the effects have worn off.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

Ok then, maybe im getting confused with the other thread because there are two with excatly the same subject going on.

But either way, what is the importance about pve only skills that people need them to be 100% effective?

They are not required for any aspect of the game, including elite zones! They are just nice new skills that we can use if we choose.

If you think otherwise and you can think of an instance ingame where you desperately need to use a pve only skill to complete a task, area, quest or a mission then tell me (again not including LB gaze).

If not then your agruement is invalid because there is no pressure to use these skills at all. Then it falls back onto being a choice to use them or not.

If there are certain people ingame, in elite zones who are forcing players to use these pve only skills, and forcing them to increase ranks to use them...

..then that is the problem. Not because the skills are connected to titles, but because certain elite players are dictating that their important and pressuring people into using them.

MithranArkanere · Sep 10, 2007, 11:34 AM // 11:34

All of this is fixed with hard mode, and by making those books giving real reawards, not the 2500 ridiculous points you can easily get by clearing half an explorable.

haggus71 · Sep 10, 2007, 11:54 AM // 11:54

A) Fish does have a point. It's not Anet that requires us to have these skills(other than Norn for quests. LB isn't even needed). It's the players GLF'ing that are. I wouldn't even call them elitist players(c'mon, they're PUG's!). Call them misguided. They see a "summon whatever" skill and forget that someone could put a more useful skill to the party in that skill slot. Most true elite skill players recognize the skills for what they are - flashy gems to make the game more fun for casual players. If you are truly eleite, you can do better with the skills you have most trust, not something that is a flash-in-the-pan.

B) At the pub? The guy is at home holding an orange juice. Check your own eyes before you get on him.

freekedoutfish · Sep 10, 2007, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggus71

B) At the pub? The guy is at home holding an orange juice. Check your own eyes before you get on him.

Well in all fairnes, ill be in my local in Newcastle in about..... 2 hours! So he was almost right, just a bit early on the assumption I was drunk yet.

lord dragon · Sep 10, 2007, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Ok then, maybe im getting confused with the other thread because there are two with excatly the same subject going on.

But either way, what is the importance about pve only skills that people need them to be 100% effective?

They are not required for any aspect of the game, including elite zones! They are just nice new skills that we can use if we choose.

If you think otherwise and you can think of an instance ingame where you desperately need to use a pve only skill to complete a task, area, quest or a mission then tell me (again not including LB gaze).

If not then your agruement is invalid because there is no pressure to use these skills at all. Then it falls back onto being a choice to use them or not.

If there are certain people ingame, in elite zones who are forcing players to use these pve only skills, and forcing them to increase ranks to use them...

..then that is the problem. Not because the skills are connected to titles, but because certain elite players are dictating that their important and pressuring people into using them.

That would not have existed if they didn't exist to begin with correct?

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

lord dragon · Sep 10, 2007, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggus71

A) Fish does have a point. It's not Anet that requires us to have these skills(other than Norn for quests. LB isn't even needed). It's the players GLF'ing that are. I wouldn't even call them elitist players(c'mon, they're PUG's!). Call them misguided. They see a "summon whatever" skill and forget that someone could put a more useful skill to the party in that skill slot. Most true elite skill players recognize the skills for what they are - flashy gems to make the game more fun for casual players. If you are truly eleite, you can do better with the skills you have most trust, not something that is a flash-in-the-pan.

B) At the pub? The guy is at home holding an orange juice. Check your own eyes before you get on him.

Well, considering I have been saying all along, I do not have these skills. I figured, as he has said in other posts that he must have been at the pub before he got here.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

TabascoSauce · Sep 10, 2007, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Haggus, when you say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggus71

omeone could put a more useful skill to the party in that skill slot

and I read:

Quote:

"Finish Him!"

10 E 15 Sec Recharge

If target foe has less than 50% Health, that foe takes 20...80 damage and suffers from Cracked Armor and a Deep Wound for 5...20 seconds.

I begin to wonder what part of superpowerful skills you missed?

You and fish there are not thinking critically, so let me help you.

They are tied to time spent in-game, and obviously not skill, so really all you have to do to get the max title rank is clear Drakkar Lake again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

What part of skill > time are you missing? That skill seems to be a no-brainer I am gonna bring it along cause it is a super powerful skill, if you have it at max rank.

Again, what part of skill > time are you not getting? This is grind, and it breaks the original concept of the game every day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Mordakai · Sep 10, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

1st question: why do we have two threads on same topic? With same posts?

2nd question: (directed to Tobasco Sauce)

Who's telling you you must have maxed out "Finish Him!" to join their PUG?

I've never, EVER had anyone tell me what skills to bring. And if someone did, I'd kick them from my group (I always start my own PUGs).

You are not at the mercy of anyone to play this game. Play the way you want, with the skills you have.

TabascoSauce · Sep 10, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Actually, it is lord dragon who advocates that the skills will be required to enter PUGs. I think his argument has merit, but it is not mine. I do -not- object to grind for vanity items and textual titles, as long as they have no-ingame effect on gameplay. I -do- object to the increasing amount of grindable title tracks that are tied to superpowerful skills, and how this breaks the original game premise of skill > time.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Mordakai · Sep 10, 2007, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Actually, it is lord dragon who advocates that the skills will be required to enter PUGs. I think his argument has merit, but it is not mine. I do -not- object to grind for vanity items and textual titles, as long as they have no-ingame effect on gameplay. I -do- object to the increasing amount of grindable title tracks that are tied to superpowerful skills, and how this breaks the original game premise of skill > time.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

I addressed this point in the other Grind thread, but will paraphrase it here.

Skill > grind does not apply to PvE. Never has, or else, all Elite skills would be available at the start of the game. (Oh, and don't tell me that no Elite skills are "that hard" to get. I hated having to complete games just to get to elites, especially on a third or fourth character).

Grind is subjective. I never understood why killing monsters over and over ina quest or mission is not "grind", but kill those same monsters in an area to get "points" is?

And, again, you do not need to be maxed out in these skills for them to be effective. I find Rank 2 in Ursan Blessing to be fine at killing monsters.

TabascoSauce · Sep 10, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Now you know why we have 2 threads - because you're posting the same data in both just like we do.

If the mods want to close one, then I understand.

Seriously, read the other thread, but like you I'll paraphrase here.

Mordakai, if you want that kind of an experience, then choose an appropriate game - for example WoW has 70 levels of increasing power.

Guild Wars started as a no-grind MMO, based on skill. We did not invent the "skill > time" text blurb we keep mentioning. This game maxes out at level 20, which you can achieve in a few days at most.

This new concept of grind is turning the game from what it was into something that other MMOs do better, to put it bluntly.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

nugzta · Sep 10, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Skill > Time is BS. In order to be good at something, the more you dedicating yourself to it and invest more time to it, the better you are at doing that. Thats why my friend fail at math test because he rarely does math homeworks and exercises as well as only spends little time reading math textbooks. The same applies to everything else: sports, jobs, hobbies, etc.

freekedoutfish · Sep 10, 2007, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

You and fish there are not thinking critically, so let me help you.

Tabasco if a skill was critical to the game, it would mean you couldnt complete a task, quest, dungeon, mission or elite zone or some other aspect without it.

Understand this... you can complete all 3 games and do all elite zones and do all dungeons without the use of any of the pve only skills (except LB gaze for abaddons minions).

And you cannot deny that!!!! There for they are not critical to the game.

Yes they are oober powerfull and no one is denying that, and its great that you want to use them in some way or another. But nothing and no-one is forcing you to use it and you dont need to use it.

Can you not understand that? It is purely your choice to use them and it impacts no one but you.

Yes having someone in your team with that skill maxed out is nice and yes it will help, but you do not need it and them to complete that part of the game.

Why can you not understand that?
Why do you keep insisting there is some priority to using these pve only skills?
Why do you keep trying to say they critical to the gameplay when you know their not?

You are only complaining about this, because you want these skills maxed out without any effort so you can use them in elite zones!!

Its got nothing to do with balance in the slightest!

TabascoSauce · Sep 10, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Um, the phrase thinking critically would be best defined as "including all possible processes of reflecting upon a tangible or intangible item in order to form a solid judgment that reconciles scientific evidence with common sense."

You are interpreting critical as in, required to complete the game, which is not my argument.

I believe that elitism definitely exists and is a problem, and ANet seems to be encouraging it by allowing grind grind grind to build up super powerful skills, but that is lord dragon's thunder, and I will not steal it.

Back to what I have been saying, which is a direct refutation of you, and all this malarkey about the grind extends the game nonsense. I am the one telling you that you're wrong.

Remember the Advanced Lawnmower Simulator?
Remember "clear Drakkar Lake again and again and again and again..."?

Grind =/= game. I go out and mow my lawn every weekend, and that's grind.

I get that $&*! for free. I'll do it for physical tangible results, like a nice looking lawn, but I'll be damned if I am going to do for some intangible game that was founded on the premise of no grind. I am not going to do it now, and I am not going to do it in GW2. I can get a vastly superior grind experience in say, LOTRO, which was build from the ground up to support it.

We're back again to the same old thing I keep mentioning, and you keep trying to change the subject - that this is a clear trend to reward ad nausaeum zone clearing grind repeated again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

I do not like that.

It is a bad idea. It violates the original principle of the game - that sold me on it. Skill > time. I like the game, and would prefer it to keep to its original premise. Level 20 max reached quickly is the best way to put it - and grind was not supposed to be in the game. You can face the fact, I'm going to protest grind in GW in any shape or form, whether you like it or not.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

korcan · Sep 10, 2007, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

You can face the fact, I'm going to protest grind in GW in any shape or form, whether you like it or not.

considering all mmos have some form of grind, youre fighting a losing battle.

if you dont like grind, dont play mmos.

its just a suggestion but if you dont want grind, you should consider playing single player rpgs. there are some good ones out there with no grind whatsoever.

xArcaeus · Sep 10, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Well, being a completist going for 30+ maxed titles on my char, I'm happy to admit I will most likely be doing whatever necessary to max all these new GWEN titles. Why? Because I like to hit 'H' and see all those green bars, I guess :P. Am I doing it for 'teh uber PvE skills'? Absolutely not. My summoned Mursaat doesn't even have Spectral Agony, which is proof enough that if any of these maxed skills becomes unbalanced, the nerf hammer will smack it nicely. No one should worry about *needing* any of these, the game is really easy enough w/o them. They're even more unnecessary since your heroes can't even use them. The only skill worth grinding for IMO is triple shot. I was very happy when I reached that first Luxon title

.

As far as grinding to get more than ONE Onyx after 25 dungeon runs (and wanting all 11 types of Destroyer weapons for my HoM), that's just plain ridiculous. I'll finally have enough when I'm 120 years old.

lord dragon · Sep 10, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugzta

Skill > Time is BS. In order to be good at something, the more you dedicating yourself to it and invest more time to it, the better you are at doing that. Thats why my friend fail at math test because he rarely does math homeworks and exercises as well as only spends little time reading math textbooks. The same applies to everything else: sports, jobs, hobbies, etc.

First question I have is, why do we keep going back to a school mentality. Is everyone in school that is defending GWEN?

As for the second, if you friend had skill in math, he may get a great grade in it. I know, I did, right up to calc 2. Some are just good at certain things.

Tell me you have never seen a born pianist, sports player, ect. They are out there.

And last, but not least, math is required for a job and life. GW is not. It is supposed to be for pleasure, to be enjoyed, to have fun with. Obviously it fails at that with GWEN, but did well with the other areas.

So, please remember, some of us are not in school anymore. We don't believe that GW will give us life lessons we can not live without.\

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

Stolen Souls · Sep 10, 2007, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by korcan

considering all mmos have some form of grind, youre fighting a losing battle.

if you dont like grind, dont play mmos.

its just a suggestion but if you dont want grind, you should consider playing single player rpgs. there are some good ones out there with no grind whatsoever.

Thing is, that at one time GW was able to boast that it HAD no grind. Those "other MMOs" always had it. It was one of the main selling points to a lot of us (including me), and it's one of the things that, you know....made GW...crap, what's the word?....oh right...DIFFERENT! You're basically admitting now that it's just another clone of every other MMO out there. How is that a good thing? :/

When the only argument left is "if you don't like it, play another game"...it's a kinda bad sign. >.>

BlackSephir · Sep 10, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by korcan

considering all mmos have some form of grind, youre fighting a losing battle.

if you dont like grind, dont play mmos.

its just a suggestion but if you dont want grind, you should consider playing single player rpgs. there are some good ones out there with no grind whatsoever.

Breaking news: Prophecies didn't (still doesn't) have grind.
More after this.

Whoops, forgot that Proph was utter failure- look, no grind and only 2 more chapters, 1 expanion and a sequel coming in...
It's official, MMO's without grind don't sell

Whoops #2 and edit, I said 2 expansions ;d Silly me