Curse

freekedoutfish · Sep 16, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

And here you thought you had a clue what it's about. You really don't. no one is soloing Duncan (And if someone is anyway, congratulations!)....

.....No

One

Is

Running

The

Dungeon

ok....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Anyone who has been to Umbral Grotto recently will have noticed a never ending stream of people offering runs to Duncan for 1k.

To kill Duncan from start to finish it takes about 30-45 minutes and can easily be done with Hero/Hench as a Spoil Victor hero can easily, but slowly, solo Duncan. His chest will always drop 1 Deldrimor Armour Remnent, value around 10-15k and an Onyx Gemstone ~10k (i think) along with a 3rd random item (occasionally another Gemstone). Then once you go outside the chest for some reason updates to show you've killed all the other bosses and you can then collect your 2.75k gold reward. A guaranteed 20k worth in an hour.

This really does need to be stopped. 1 of 2 things will come out of this abuse. They'll fix it, and make it so only party members who have cleared all 4 other bosses can enter (similar to Mallyx), which is the way it was intended i would think. Or they'll nerf the drops you get from Duncans chest and screw over people who do all 5 bosses legitimately.

If they refuse to deal with the issue then this problem will only get worse in Hard Mode if they up the number or drops from the chests.

Anyone else agree with me on this?

I was just going by the description which the OP gave about the "exploit"! By the OP own words people are being run to Duncans dungeon and then solo'ing it while others watch and then open the end chest!

What am I not understanding about the issue? If ive missunderstood, then blame the OP, not me!!

Ok so its an easy 4 credits, but you can do far easier dungeons then Duncans and get those 4 credits! Also getting the 2k each run, is exactly the same as walking out into an instance and killing everything in site and selling all the drops.

Basically the OP is saying this exploit will help you make gold easily. Ok... how is that any different to doing a run through DOA or the factions elite zones and selling the contents from those chests?

Im not saying its acceptable! But its not the only aspect of GWs that can be run/solo'd/exploited to make easy gold.

Gli · Sep 16, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Evilsod is talking about running to the dungeon. You are talking about running through the dungeon. Two different things, especially, because the former is happening and the latter isn't.

He's also not saying that people are soloing it. He's saying people run it with heroes and henchies, and that, having done that until you reach the final boss, a single hero can kill him, just using one skill.

The funny thing is, this has been explained by numerous posts in this thread; incidentally, also by myself, in response to an earlier post by yourself. How do you figure that, huh?

Also, it's not an easy four credits, it's an undeserved four credits.

There's no blame on the OP, he was quite clear. What you're reading is not what he posted.

Firebaall · Sep 16, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Show how my comparisons are bizarre, please. Just stating it doesn't make it so.

Try reading my response again, but slower this time.

Comparing what's happening with the Duncan run, and botting is a retarded comparison. I find it bizarre that anybody with a healthy mentality doesn't understand that.

Gli · Sep 16, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebaall

Try reading my response again, but slower this time.

Comparing what's happening with the Duncan run, and botting is a retarded comparison. I find it bizarre that anybody with a healthy mentality doesn't understand that.

Reading your response doesn't hit me with anything except a strong suspicion that you're an exploiter who's rationalizing his misdoings. Really, anyone with a basic understanding of this game who sees the mechanics of this exploit at work, would recognize it as an exploit. Freud would've had a field day on this thread.

CyberNigma · Sep 16, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Because those things are different. You don't get credit for the Kilroy, Alkar, Galen Trask and Orozar quests when you lift along with someone's Final Assault quest. You don't get credit for the first 24 missions when you kill the Lich in Prophecies. The things you mention are nothing more than doing things out of turn. The Duncan thing, that the exploitation of a bug; getting credit for things you didn't do.

Gli is right on this point here. You don't get credit on the missions by doing the last one. I think this goes a long way in pushing the idea that if you go through Duncan's it only marks off Duncan. This way people would still be required to defeat the other bosses if they want to get the credit and reward for the quest (15k xp and 2.75k gp). All they would get by only doing Duncan is the chest reward for that particular dungeon. Let ANet decided whether that reward is too much for only that dungeon or not. The reward for doing ALL of them should be given as the quest reward, not merely the last dungeon.

Two things would be accomplished here. 1) People would have available parties for going and doing the Duncan dungeon once their quest reaches that point (as the other players don't have to be at that point). 2) Players that aren't to that point don't get quest credit for defeating all the other bosses and still have to do that if they want the quest credit.

EDIT: As an aside for those mentioning Sorrow's Furnace: Once you complete the pre-requisite quests and you do any of them at any point, including just going in and doing Final Assault over and over without re-doing the other quests. Other people can also come in with you and do Final Assault to get the green drops and such from the bosses that are lined up on your way in, it's just that they can't get the quest reward for doing so. It's a good example I suppose.

CHunterX · Sep 17, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Would you all stop complaining if the quest didn't give you 2,500g each time you beat Duncan? Is that what this argument has honestly come down to? If this was an "exploit on the level of botting." It would have been caught before the release of EotN, or they need to fire some testers. Comparing it to botting is the stupidest thing I've heard in this thread, barring what freeked has been saying. The chest rewards are pretty much crap 80% of the time, lower onyx prices everyone is welcoming, and like Chthon and Firebaall said, turning this into another DoA-force-dungeon-completion will do more harm than good. Have you even been to DoA lately? Neither has anyone else. It sounds like a bunch of people who paid 10k+ for their onyx are pissed that they jumped the gun. Probably the same people who bought a PS3 and IPhone on release day.

I agree that it shouldn't give you 2,500g each time you kill him, but it's just 2,500g, no reason to get your panties in a bunch and start labeling people "no better than botters."

(And by the way freeked. Go actually do a Duncan run, its only 20 minutes. Surely you can run a simple Elementalist Savannah Heat build; you don't even need to beat EotN to get into the dungeon. Then come back and try to argue some more. You clearly have no idea what's going on in Umbral Grotto.)

Gli · Sep 17, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

I only compared it to botting in the context that this exploit also rewards you for work you never did. Which is true, undeniably, for the full 100%. Thank you.

Apart from the money, there's also the undeserved Dungeon Guide entry and 10 undeserved Mastery of the North points, but that's just academic at this point, because really no one at all gives a damn about those I guess.

Jessyi · Sep 17, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

I'm going to keep doing it anyways. Screwing myself out of cash is stupid.

It might be undeserved, but that's a fault on ANet's part. The individual would be an idiot not to take any advantage given, and an idiot I am not. It should be fixed, but people should also exploit it. Those aren't mutually exclusive assertions. So get the stick out of your ass and go farm some cash before it's all worthless or ANet patches it.

-Jessyi

Evilsod · Sep 17, 2007, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

I'm going to keep doing it anyways. Screwing myself out of cash is stupid.

It might be undeserved, but that's a fault on ANet's part. The individual would be an idiot not to take any advantage given, and an idiot I am not. It should be fixed, but people should also exploit it. Those aren't mutually exclusive assertions. So get the stick out of your ass and go farm some cash before it's all worthless or ANet patches it.

-Jessyi

I wasn't expecting people to stop doing it until its stopped by Anet tbh. I have scrupels (sp?)... that and i've got better things to do than farm Duncan with heroes, i don't need the money anyway. Plus if i wanted it i'd help some sucker through FoW for 10-15 ecto. What i am expecting is a bunch of new registers to the board whining that there taxi service got nerfed because they can't play the other 3 areas.

Quote:

Would you all stop complaining if the quest didn't give you 2,500g each time you beat Duncan? Is that what this argument has honestly come down to? If this was an "exploit on the level of botting." It would have been caught before the release of EotN, or they need to fire some testers. Comparing it to botting is the stupidest thing I've heard in this thread, barring what freeked has been saying. The chest rewards are pretty much crap 80% of the time, lower onyx prices everyone is welcoming, and like Chthon and Firebaall said, turning this into another DoA-force-dungeon-completion will do more harm than good. Have you even been to DoA lately? Neither has anyone else. It sounds like a bunch of people who paid 10k+ for their onyx are pissed that they jumped the gun. Probably the same people who bought a PS3 and IPhone on release day.

No that should be fixed NOW. Theres no point trying to make money sinks in the game then giving away free doses of 3k gold. The skipping should just be asap because its wrecking the entire point of the elite dungeon.

I read that wiki thread... Gaile says it'll be looked at 'sooner rather than later'. Meaning by the time they do something about Deld. Armours and Onyx Gemstones will be already worth next to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO all and the entire dungeon will be pointless.

Chthon · Sep 17, 2007, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mineria

H+H the entire dungeon? ^^

EDIT: And I'm not even joking

If you had read the rest of my post, you'll see that I did exactly that.

Then I went and found myself 7 people who needed a ferry and finished off Duncan. For a PUG, I found them polite, helpful, and competent teammates, no doubt thanks to being able to practice because of their previous ferries. They were a hell of a lot better than Mhenlo and friends and a hell of a lot easier to make a team out of than the comparatively tiny handful of people in Umbral who had actually finished the first 4 subquests. In fact, in the entire time it took me to build the team, I did not see one single monk who had finished the quests.

Bottom line: shut down the ferries and you make PUG-ing this area impossible due to lack of eligible teammates.

"Sorry Guildie, my monk can't help you. I just did it yesterday with my monk, now I can't go back till I do the other 4 again."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT:

Saw this on gwonline and thought it was worth reposting:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightow (@ gwonline)

In my personal opinion, Anet should make the quests chained where the first one is to defeat the first four bosses and then make a separate, repeatable quest to destroy Duncan the Black. Divide the reward evenly between the two and make it so that:

a)Everyone must have finished GW:EN before anyone in the party even enters Slaver's Exile.

b)Everyone in the party must have the second quest in their quest logs.

also,

c)Make it so that the entrance to Slaver's Exile is it's own outpost.

Now, I don't think any sort of nerf to ferrying is needed. But, here at least is a pro-nerf person who's thinking. Building a party under this system would be do-able once a sizable pool of people finished the first quest. That's a hell of a lot more than I can say for most of the people mindlessly chanting "nerf! nerf! nerf!"

plasmasword · Sep 17, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

ok....

I was just going by the description which the OP gave about the "exploit"! By the OP own words people are being run to Duncans dungeon and then solo'ing it while others watch and then open the end chest!

What am I not understanding about the issue? If ive missunderstood, then blame the OP, not me!!

You still have absolutely no idea what your talking about. The runner runs them TO the dungeon, door is open, everyone pays runner. Then the 7 people proceed to FIGHT their way to Duncan. When you finally reach Duncan the SV necro solo's it while a monk prots him. There is no running the dungeon, get it?

CHunterX · Sep 17, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Its ok, alliance is running out of ideas. He's now trying to base this entire quest been skippable purely on 1 word in the quest log.

Defeat and Destroy means the exact same thing with regard to this quest. Defeat would mean you beat him/his mob into submission clearly showing your better than them. Or it would mean killing them. Either way you've got to fight them to do it.
Destroy means only the latter. You kill him, without mercy.

For all we know they just got bored or typing 'defeat' over and over and went for something more original.

Come up with some better arguements or stop posting.

Writers don't just "get bored of typing defeat over and over" if they want to get a point across. And it's not just "one word" in the quest log. If Areanet intended "The Last Hierophant" to be played like the Domain of Anguish, this is exactly what they would have put in the quest log for it:

1. Go to Justiciar Thommis' Dungeon and destroy Justiciar Thommis.
2. Go to Justiciar Thommis' Dungeon and destroy Rand Stormweaver.
3. Go to Selvetarm's Dungeon and destroy Selvetarm.
4. Go to Forgewight's Dungeon and destroy Forgewight.
5. Report your success in defeating the Summit hierophants to Veth the Storyteller.
6. Speak to Veth the Storyteller to commence the assault on Duncan the Black.
7. Seek out and destroy Duncan the Black in his Dungeon.
8. See Veth the Storyteller for your reward.

Again, I agree that the bosses should not be instantly cleared upon defeating Duncan the Black, letting you accept the 2,500 gold, but the ability to "ferry" is a bi-product of purposely letting people fight Duncan without forcing the entire party to defeat other dungeons. Which leads me to the point that this sounds like an argument over 2,500g and people who paid 10k+ for onyx.

And by the way, I hero'd the 4 dungeons prior to Duncan so I could run as well, so don't try throwing the "too poor of a player to beat the first four."

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

I only compared it to botting in the context that this exploit also rewards you for work you never did. Which is true, undeniably, for the full 100%.

I could go into the Cathedral of Flames, flag my heroes and henchmen, watch TV for 3-4 minutes, come back, and flag them to the next mob. Eventually, I would get to the end, open the chest, and get a reward for work I never did. Is this an exploit as well? Stop trying to make this sound much worse than it is. Running to Duncan just a bi-product of letting people form parties easier by not requiring all four bosses to be complete, making it more accessible for average players.

Cyan Rhae · Sep 17, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

A runner earns 7k in a bout 3-5 min the run.
The average team needs about 16-20 min to clear the Duncan quest.

Its actually pretty fun to do but then again its really easy and the chest rewards arent a big deal and neither is the quest reward.

I think this is just another typical area that pugz enjoy playing together i guess thats why people do this.

Evilsod · Sep 17, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHunterX

...blah blah... defeat...blah blah

Come back when your not basing your entire theory that this is what was meant to happen on 1 word in the quest log that proves absolutely nothing.

Quote:

And by the way, I hero'd the 4 dungeons prior to Duncan so I could run as well, so don't try throwing the "too poor of a player to beat the first four."

Ok, so do it again then. Doing it once is still not an excuse for allowing you to skip the entire quest just because you can do it. By that logic i should just be able to walk in and get some items from Duncans chest. I've killed him before.

CyberNigma · Sep 17, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyan Rhae

A runner earns 7k in a bout 3-5 min the run.
The average team needs about 16-20 min to clear the Duncan quest.

Its actually pretty fun to do but then again its really easy and the chest rewards arent a big deal and neither is the quest reward.

I think this is just another typical area that pugz enjoy playing together i guess thats why people do this.

I didn't even think about that part. Essentially they are paying people to PUG together lol. Are there any other areas in the game like that? Maybe Sorrow's Furnace is still like that but I haven't been there lately. If that's the tradeoff that people make some decent gold by PUGing, then that rocks.

I am curious now as to how many other places are real big on building PUGs now that you've said that. DoA was pretty dead the past few times I've been there. I guess it's just the other elite areas. Again, Final Assault is a decent base for it. Since people apparently don't like DoA or don't think it's worth the effort, I wouldn't base it off of that one.

CyberNigma · Sep 17, 2007, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Come back when your not basing your entire theory that this is what was meant to happen on 1 word in the quest log that proves absolutely nothing.

Ok, so do it again then. Doing it once is still not an excuse for allowing you to skip the entire quest just because you can do it. By that logic i should just be able to walk in and get some items from Duncans chest. I've killed him before.

Final Assault doesn't make you re-do the pre-requisite quests (scouting it out before assaulting). That may be a good quest to base this one off of since people enjoyed doing it. Again I don't think I'd base it off of DoA if you want people to have fun.

Evilsod · Sep 17, 2007, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Yeah they were also 2 individual quests, with 5 individual NPCs associciated with them, who in turn had 5 quests for each part. There was NEVER any doubt that the 2 main quests were 1 offs and the rest were fully repeatable at any time.

And DoAs reasons for been crap were nothing even remotely to do with the quest setup. Get a frigging clue and stop up pathetic points because your running out of ideas. The only thing this place has in common to Sorrows Furnace is that the enemies are Stone Summit.

CyberNigma · Sep 17, 2007, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Truthfully I hope they don't take any suggestions from the forum. Like Jeff Strain said, the people on the forums don't represent the player base. I hope they look it over, figure out which method will be the most enjoyable for the majority of players that are playing and go with that. If it's making it a long quest then so be it. If it's leaving it somewhat the same so people will PUG, then so be it. Hell, I'd prefer they turn all the elite missions around and pay out maybe 10-15k for completing them (making them more worth the effort). Items are shit for most people without some easy method of selling them. They'll go to the merchants and their prices will fluctuate even if they do trade them. Gold on the other hand works wonders because things like Armour and Weapons from the traders do not fluctuate.

I imagine most people do not give a damn about the in-game economy. Collector's take drops. Crafters take cash and materials.

CHunterX · Sep 17, 2007, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I didn't actually read your post so I don't have to argue against it

ok!RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO

lursey · Sep 17, 2007, 07:31 AM // 07:31

when I look into this thread these questions come in my mind

1) what is the reason an outpost is full of players?
a) because players feel being and playing there is fun or
b) they are forced to be there

note that, some players may be forced by a lot of factors, such as
i) developer's designs
ii) player's relationship
iii) the force of losing opportunities
iv) etc

if players have a choice, which answer will players choose to be in an outpost to play the game?

2) will an intended exploitation attract and stimulate more interest for players to play, given players tends to take shortcuts than taking the long way?

I think here is a chance for game developer to look at, whether it can increase sales of the game, and number of customers.

3) what are the advantages and disadvantages of taxi-ing in the short-run and long run

taxi-ing seems to do benefit to the game in the short run, such as
more players able to pug together, working together towards a common goal

the uncertainty will arise, in the long run, when everyone has x mil gold, and all the items that they like, will they still play the game at all?

4) and finally what is the goal of the game (or this game)?