Curse

SotiCoto · Sep 18, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I guess you could say that you lost the right puzzle piece, or that you need to make a new one, or....something?

All meanings have now been lost in metaphor...
I don't deal well with metaphor. Consider this aspect of the conversation dropped by proxy.

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Why should some encounters be impossible to beat? It is in this sense that Guild Wars PvE is balanced: There is a counter to every single build, monster, boss and dungeon.

Selective words there...
Assuming an average level of skill... of the average player, that is.... the very highest echelons of the game (Hard Mode Domain of Anguish) is rendered unbeatable even with the perfect build.... if for no other reason than that simply spamming 1-8 won't cut it.

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There's not much skill to rock, paper, scissors. You just have to know which is which. Sure, it takes some time to identify and prioritize targets, know when to move out of an AoE, and know what skills should be interupted (interupting is probably the most "skilled" form of PvE, btw). But that's pretty much common knowledge. It all has to do with experience, not skill. Clicking on an enemy and pressing keys 1-8 isn't really "skill".

...... If what you were saying were true... then "skill" as we know it wouldn't exist. The inate differences in any person's body and mind that allow them to be better or worse at any given activity influence Guild Wars just the same.... because oddly enough, any activity can be systemised the same way. Some just take more "experience" than others... relatively speaking.
I'm guessing you're just not familiar with the full range of people with different physical and mental abilities out there.... *Shrugs*

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You may want to be a little more open-minded to that, then. This is pretty much how a lot of strategy games are: Test it out, learn from it. That's probably the only similarity that PvE has with PvP.

Open-mindedness has little to do with it. It is as instinctive a response as you pulling your hand away from an open pain. I mean sure... you can resist it, or even train yourself to ignore it... but make one mistake and it will all crumble back into place because that very thing is hard-wired to the brain.

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Still keep your minions. They *do* make great meat-shields. But Warriors are the best to take that first hit from Mind Blast or whatever nasty spell the enemies have in store.

Erm.... Warrior get damaged by Mind Blast. Health go down. If it gets spammed, a not-so-competant warrior might die. Minion get hit by it and minion explodes... There are plenty more of 'em. MM makes a new minion. No loss. *Shrugs*
Besides... I've noticed the AI seems to like wasting skills on Minions...

Bryant Again · Sep 18, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

All meanings have now been lost in metaphor...
I don't deal well with metaphor. Consider this aspect of the conversation dropped by proxy.

My point was that even if your character is disabled in one aspect, you should see what else you can do to aid/benefit the party. I've already said the same thing quite a few times in this thread what I've done with my warrior: Give him "You Move like a Dwarf", "Finish Him" (can't get Gash in), and "Disrupting Dagger". These are what I use when I'm blinded, which is some large % of the time. The other % of the time my Rit hero is using Sight Beyond Sight on me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Selective words there...
Assuming an average level of skill... of the average player, that is.... the very highest echelons of the game (Hard Mode Domain of Anguish) is rendered unbeatable even with the perfect build.... if for no other reason than that simply spamming 1-8 won't cut it.

If they don't know what they're up against or what they using, then yeah they'll lose. Given the fact that numerous people have been able to vanquish Hard Mode DoA, it's safe to say that it's very possible to beat. I'm not sure where you're going here.

Nothing is unbeatable in PvE.

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Originally Posted by SotiCoto

...... If what you were saying were true... then "skill" as we know it wouldn't exist.

In Guild Wars? Not really. Again, as I've said, the difficulty lies in putting together a successful build, be it for yourself or for your party. That's just how it is.

I'm sorry, but I have yet to see something that takes "skill" in Guild Wars PvE (besides putting together your builds).

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

I'm guessing you're just not familiar with the full range of people with different physical and mental abilities out there.... *Shrugs*

Are you saying that some people are physically or mentally inept to play this game? If yes, then it's not the game that's the problem. But if not, I have barely any clue what you're saying here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Open-mindedness has little to do with it. It is as instinctive a response as you pulling your hand away from an open pain. I mean sure... you can resist it, or even train yourself to ignore it... but make one mistake and it will all crumble back into place because that very thing is hard-wired to the brain.

...Okay so you don't like to have to experiment with builds and whatnot? Because that's pretty much Guild Wars in a nutshell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Erm.... Warrior get damaged by Mind Blast. Health go down. If it gets spammed, a not-so-competant warrior might die.

It's not likely to get spammed on the Warrior. And if it does, you should have competant monks and he should be fine.

SotiCoto · Sep 18, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

My point was that even if your character is disabled in one aspect, you should see what else you can do to aid/benefit the party. I've already said the same thing quite a few times in this thread what I've done with my warrior: Give him "You Move like a Dwarf", "Finish Him" (can't get Gash in), and "Disrupting Dagger". These are what I use when I'm blinded, which is some large % of the time. The other % of the time my Rit hero is using Sight Beyond Sight on me.

Really.... dropped by proxy.
You're still completely missing the point I was trying to make....
.... and additionally, you're lying (or not paying attention to your own words).
Sight Beyond Sight : Read the description. Your Rit hero cannot use it on you.

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If they don't know what they're up against or what they using, then yeah they'll lose. Given the fact that numerous people have been able to vanquish Hard Mode DoA, it's safe to say that it's very possible to beat. I'm not sure where you're going here.

Nothing is unbeatable in PvE.

Don't deal too well with hypothetical scenarios... do you?
I might as well round this one down too by saying those people who vanquish Hard Mode DoA are obviously skilled AND experienced. I doubt I could ever do it... personally.

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In Guild Wars? Not really. Again, as I've said, the difficulty lies in putting together a successful build, be it for yourself or for your party. That's just how it is.

I'm sorry, but I have yet to see something that takes "skill" in Guild Wars PvE (besides putting together your builds).

NO! Obviously not just "in Guild Wars"... but entirely... full stop. I'm talking about reality and everything else here. If I'm supposed to take what you're saying for granted then there is no such thing as skill anywhere or anywhen under any circumstances in any context.
The word exists though, and it clearly applies to something.
Guild Wars to some extent is influenced by the same player conditions as any other game... or indeed many other activities... and thus if skill can be said to apply to any of them then it applies to Guild Wars. Simple as that.

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Are you saying that some people are physically or mentally inept to play this game? If yes, then it's not the game that's the problem. But if not, I have barely any clue what you're saying here.

That is the extreme example... but basically... yes.
Some people are too physically or mentally inept to play it to the same standards as others.... and likewise some are physically and mentally adept enough in certain ways that they can play it above and beyond the norm and get results like no other.

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...Okay so you don't like to have to experiment with builds and whatnot? Because that's pretty much Guild Wars in a nutshell.

It isn't a matter of like.... and it isn't a matter of absolutes. It is a matter of my having an inate tendency hardwired into me to do the same thing over and over again and not like to deviate much from one way of doing things. I will eventually... gradually deviate.... but it isn't easy for me, as comfort comes in pattern and familiarity, while unfamiliarity just stresses me out.

*Sighs*

And on a slightly related note... what is it with you people and assuming everything is black and white when almost nothing at all is? It truly baffles the mind. I've never encountered a single example in a real environment where, without the limits being defined beforehand, the situation can be summed up as "not A therefore B". Nothing works like that unless limits are strictly defined in advance... and most of the time they're not... and yet people will still conclude that there is no such thing as "average" or "slightly _____"; they just seem to conclude that if it isn't one total extreme that it has to be the other...
A product of completely irrational thinking, IMHO.... and it bugs the heck out of me. Bloody neurotypicals.... And they have the nerve to call ME "disabled". ¬_¬

Bryant Again · Sep 19, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

.... and additionally, you're lying (or not paying attention to your own words).
Sight Beyond Sight : Read the description. Your Rit hero cannot use it on you.

So that's been on there for no reason?...Well, shit, then I guess that area isn't as blind heavy as I thought.

But anyways, I look back and take another look at your point, and I realize that it explains why you made this thread in the first place.

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Don't deal too well with hypothetical scenarios... do you?

Ah thanks, read it wrong.

Since that is the case, I'd probably assume that that party had never gone in there before. They might not even know the difference between a margonite anur vu and a margonite anur ki. Like I said: it takes a fair amount of knowledge of what you're going against and how to kill it if you plan to be successful against it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

If I'm supposed to take what you're saying for granted then there is no such thing as skill anywhere or anywhen under any circumstances in any context.
The word exists though, and it clearly applies to something.

Then, where? Where does PvE take skill? What certain aspect of PvE do you need to be *good* at? Clicking on an enemy is not hard, using your skills on him is not hard, show me where this *skill* is shown that is not in creating the build.

This is something I've said repeatedly: The skill is shown in the build. If a person says they're having trouble in an area, what's the first thing someone asks them? "Did you bring such and such skill?" "What build did you take in there?" "Did you make sure that you had an X in your party?" The *skill* is all built around *skills*. This is why Guild Wars is so vastly different from other RPGs, it's not about how hard you swing that sword, not that you know the proper strategy for a boss, but it is what you bring to the fight that determines how good of a player you are, that determines your victory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

It isn't a matter of like.... and it isn't a matter of absolutes. It is a matter of my having an inate tendency hardwired into me to do the same thing over and over again and not like to deviate much from one way of doing things. I will eventually... gradually deviate.... but it isn't easy for me, as comfort comes in pattern and familiarity, while unfamiliarity just stresses me out.

Then Guild Wars doesn't sound too much of a game you'd like. It's all about learning to adapt, how to finetune your builds, and much more. It's best not to become to familiar with a particular build, because it might just find its match one day.

wetsparks · Sep 19, 2007, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Why is this thread still open? Seriously, the OP has been given more than enough ways to beat that dungeon, I've dont it myself on a Warrior, Ranger, and Paragon and put in my little tid bit on how to do it. I haven't read the last five pages but if it is anything like pages 1-8 and this page, it is just SotiCoto arguing about why something won't work when people keep telling him they did it that way.

ryanryanryan0310 · Sep 19, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

OMFG you need a whole thread to explain this chit!!!!!!!!!

If you suck with hero's learn to play with pugs.!!!!!!!

Someone close this chit already!!!!

BRING on the CATS pictures!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SotiCoto · Sep 19, 2007, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So that's been on there for no reason?...Well, shit, then I guess that area isn't as blind heavy as I thought.

But anyways, I look back and take another look at your point, and I realize that it explains why you made this thread in the first place.

If you're so sure of yourself on that one point... then screencap yourself WITH Sight Beyond Sight on... despite neither of YOUR classes being Ritualist. I contest that it cannot be done because Sight Beyond Sight is non-targetted and casts on self only.

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Ah thanks, read it wrong.

Since that is the case, I'd probably assume that that party had never gone in there before. They might not even know the difference between a margonite anur vu and a margonite anur ki. Like I said: it takes a fair amount of knowledge of what you're going against and how to kill it if you plan to be successful against it.

They could have been in there many times, if they really liked failure.... You could assume what you liked, but you already have made your stand on this and pre-judged... so it wouldn't really matter what was actually going on at all.

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Then, where? Where does PvE take skill? What certain aspect of PvE do you need to be *good* at? Clicking on an enemy is not hard, using your skills on him is not hard, show me where this *skill* is shown that is not in creating the build.

This is something I've said repeatedly: The skill is shown in the build. If a person says they're having trouble in an area, what's the first thing someone asks them? "Did you bring such and such skill?" "What build did you take in there?" "Did you make sure that you had an X in your party?" The *skill* is all built around *skills*. This is why Guild Wars is so vastly different from other RPGs, it's not about how hard you swing that sword, not that you know the proper strategy for a boss, but it is what you bring to the fight that determines how good of a player you are, that determines your victory.

If you can't pay attention then I'm not going to compensate for that.
I've told you several times where the skill makes a difference and how... but you seem still quite oblivious, so I doubt telling you again would make any difference. Nobody likes to repeat themselves. Just read back over my posts if you're not sure.

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Then Guild Wars doesn't sound too much of a game you'd like. It's all about learning to adapt, how to finetune your builds, and much more. It's best not to become to familiar with a particular build, because it might just find its match one day.

A lot of people have a lot of different ideas on the matter of what Guild Wars is "about". Many people claim it is soley "about" PvP .... yet I have nothing to do with that.
As far as I'm concerned... it is "about" having a large game world, a lot of content, the presence of other people without continued reliance on them, instanced worlds so people can't interfere so easily with the process of developing a character (or several) in as many ways as possible.
Perhaps key... it is about beating up a whole load of monsters and stealing their loot... then being able to show those spoils of war to other people. And for what it is worth I prefer the old "look how many monsters I've killed" to the alternative "look how big and scary the monster I just killed was".

And for what it is worth I generally DO like it.

SotiCoto · Sep 19, 2007, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

Why is this thread still open? Seriously, the OP has been given more than enough ways to beat that dungeon, I've dont it myself on a Warrior, Ranger, and Paragon and put in my little tid bit on how to do it. I haven't read the last five pages but if it is anything like pages 1-8 and this page, it is just SotiCoto arguing about why something won't work when people keep telling him they did it that way.

On the contrary, I PuG'ed the Shards of Orr and am done with it.
I personally requested a close a page or two ago... and since then two other cocky gits have likewise requested lockdown despite it not being their place to do so. In any case... I'm totally ok to have this flamefest of doomyness and people failing to be of much help (despite numerous claims that they had) shut down. I did it in spite of this thread essentially... rather than because of it.
Would that give you a joygasm? I'm sure it would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanryanryan0310

OMFG you need a whole thread to explain this chit!!!!!!!!!

If you suck with hero's learn to play with pugs.!!!!!!!

Someone close this chit already!!!!

Put a plug in it already kid. The average dog has more of worth to say than you do.

ryanryanryan0310 · Sep 19, 2007, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Put a plug in it already kid. The average dog has more of worth to say than you do.

26 here. The only time I ever post here is while at work (which is now). The time you spend writing this crap shows you got no life. It's like you writing term papers or something. Your WAY WAY too involve. You suck at this game, so stop trying to boost your post count and move on. GG

Remember this game isn't hard!

SotiCoto · Sep 19, 2007, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanryanryan0310

26 here. The only time I ever post here is while at work (which is now). The time you spend writing this crap shows you got no life. It's like you writing term papers or something. Your WAY WAY too involve. You suck at this game, so stop trying to boost your post count and move on. GG

Remember this game isn't hard!

Just because you're a slow typist and a slow thinker doesn't mean everyone is ryan. I don't care if my rattling out a quick paragraph here and there makes you feel inadequate. QQ much.
If you don't like involvement in the game... go hire a prostitute or something.

glountz · Sep 19, 2007, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Just because you're a slow typist and a slow thinker doesn't mean everyone is ryan. I don't care if my rattling out a quick paragraph here and there makes you feel inadequate. QQ much.
If you don't like involvement in the game... go hire a prostitute or something.

I can't believe I defended you, even a little, on Chromatic drakes.
You truly are a troll. Do you understand you completely made a fool of yourself?

fenix · Sep 19, 2007, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Restore Condition monk w/ Dismiss
LoD monk with Dismiss Condition
E/Mo with Savannah/Searing/Mind Blast and Draw Condition

No more blind. Ever. If it's still bad, bring another ele with Draw.

Etta · Sep 19, 2007, 09:07 AM // 09:07

lol soticoto, why don't you edit your first post to "I did the damn dungeon! now leave me alone pls". Anyway don't mind me, carry on.

ryanryanryan0310 · Sep 19, 2007, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Just because you're a slow typist and a slow thinker doesn't mean everyone is ryan. I don't care if my rattling out a quick paragraph here and there makes you feel inadequate. QQ much.
If you don't like involvement in the game... go hire a prostitute or something.

Slow typing?

There's a difference between involvemnet in the game and obession. Here in New York City I don't need prostitute's.

You probaly need a girlfriend or whichever way you roll.

SotiCoto · Sep 19, 2007, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I can't believe I defended you, even a little, on Chromatic drakes.

I got over them.
I still have some sort of personal vendetta against them... rather along the lines of killing them as often as possible to make up for where they were killing me earlier on (when I was using a less appropriate team build)... but otherwise I'm over them.
And I don't need defense... You made your choices, and if you regret them then that is likewise your decision to make. Doesn't phase me in the slightest.

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You truly are a troll.

Not here I'm not. I'm just controversial, and don't take crap from anyone. The difference is intent. I don't try to rile people up; it just happens.

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Do you understand you completely made a fool of yourself?

I give as I get, and I don't give a toss what people think of me for it. Trivial rhetoric and social standing has no place in my life.
I'm not here to "make friends"; I'm here because these boards happen to contain a lot of useful information that helps me play Guild Wars more efficiently.... and likewise a lot of completely worthless crap that I must wade through to reach the few gems. If people decide to antagonise me then I'm not going to kowtow to them to keep them pacified; I'm going to antagonise them right back. Action and reaction. Don't even waste any precious RAM on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Restore Condition monk w/ Dismiss
LoD monk with Dismiss Condition
E/Mo with Savannah/Searing/Mind Blast and Draw Condition

No more blind. Ever. If it's still bad, bring another ele with Draw.

Nice an idea as that is, if I start dedicating my entire party to condition removal... every single one.... then they're going to be spending that time removing the conditions and NOT doing whatever else they're supposed to do. If three monks with heavy condition removal skills, one paragon with the Purification elite and the other with "Its just a flesh wound!" (note: total of 5 out of 8 condition removal) can't keep me blind-free.... then clearly I'm going about the problem the wrong way.
And I was.
I played spellcaster instead. I did the dungeon (albeit with PuGs). Problem solved. We can all go home now.

Ok?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

lol soticoto, why don't you edit your first post to "I did the damn dungeon! now leave me alone pls". Anyway don't mind me, carry on.

Because if I change it to anything, it will be "Someone lock this damned thread already!"

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Originally Posted by ryanryanryan0310

Slow typing?

Rash assumption on my part, but I'll continue to believe it unless you can convince me there is some other reason why you don't type more.

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There's a difference between involvemnet in the game and obession. Here in New York City I don't need prostitute's.

You probaly need a girlfriend or whichever way you roll.

*Checks his list of conditions*
Yep.... Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is right there on my list.
What of it? I like my obsessions. They keep me focused. They stop me being a wishy, washy clueless ditz like most other folks I come across.
And I have a girlfriend.... She and I just have an odd relationship that primarily revolves around taking turns on the computer at the moment.... at least until I buy at second comp and give her my old one.

BUT... I'm sure you don't want to hear any more of my personal irrelevancies.

Where are the moderators when we need them?
Fun as this thread is, it isn't serving its purpose any more.

garethporlest18 · Sep 19, 2007, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Ah Soti I love you and your threads.

Anyways what I did was totally abandon warrior and went with Dolyak, Signet of Judgement, Bane Signet and Symbol of Wrath. It was slow but it got the job done eventually.

Heroes consisted of SH nuker, Vekk running Aegis, Extinguish and Balth's Aura. Ogden running LoD. Cynn, Mhenlo, Lina and I can't remember the other hero.

You got through it though so no point in giving tips.

SotiCoto · Sep 19, 2007, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

Ah Soti I love you and your threads.

Anyways what I did was totally abandon warrior and went with Dolyak, Signet of Judgement, Bane Signet and Symbol of Wrath. It was slow but it got the job done eventually.

Heroes consisted of SH nuker, Vekk running Aegis, Extinguish and Balth's Aura. Ogden running LoD. Cynn, Mhenlo, Lina and I can't remember the other hero.

You got through it though so no point in giving tips.

To be totally honest.... much as I said a Dervish would have no issues in there with Avatar of Melandru..... a warrior in Shards of Orr, while little use for doing melee damage.... is absolutely the dog's bollocks for simply tanking, drawing all the aggro and clustering the enemies so the nuker can take them out in one fell swoop. Those undead, warriors and elementalists alike (lawlz @ touch skills) just swarm around a tank like flies on a cowpat... making nuking the lot of them easy as pie.
Luckily, the PuG group I went with took a W/E with earth enchantments and a lot of general tanking skills.... and we also had an elementalist to take down the clusters easily. Admittedly I usually had to keep the monks at the back occupied myself so they wouldn't keep the cluster alive, but it did the job amazingly well.

I suppose it is just a sad fact of life that Dervishes have a simple way around blind, Warriors can be very useful even when not hitting things... but Assassins are a fairly restricted group in terms of usefulness. Not enough unconditional defensive capability to tank effectively and no natural way around things like blindness. If we can't hit things with our daggers or otherwise make clever use of our little hexes... then generally we can't function as Assassins at all.

fenix · Sep 19, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

I understand how you feel Soti, because I played war in that dungeon, and had to suffer blind. The way I beat it was simply bringing the extra condition removal, and using Savannah Ele's. That way, the eles cast their spells, which did huge damage over time, and while they were recharging they could remove my blinds. Even if I WAS blind, all I had to do was make sure things were bunched for AOE, or the right targets were being called for Fireballs.

Bryant Again · Sep 19, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

If you're so sure of yourself on that one point... then screencap yourself WITH Sight Beyond Sight on... despite neither of YOUR classes being Ritualist. I contest that it cannot be done because Sight Beyond Sight is non-targetted and casts on self only.

Yeah I said my Rit had it for no reason. You misread or I wasn't too clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

You could assume what you liked, but you already have made your stand on this and pre-judged... so it wouldn't really matter what was actually going on at all.

What? I said I misread and took the whole situation wrong. Now that I see what you're saying, those were the suggestions I made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

If you can't pay attention then I'm not going to compensate for that.
I've told you several times where the skill makes a difference and how... but you seem still quite oblivious, so I doubt telling you again would make any difference. Nobody likes to repeat themselves. Just read back over my posts if you're not sure.

I'm sorry, but you haven't said anything about what takes skill in PvE that does not concern putting together the build. I don't know a how, just a where. Failure to say that proves my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

And for what it is worth I generally DO like it.

As long as you know what you're in for.

SotiCoto · Sep 19, 2007, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'm sorry, but you haven't said anything about what takes skill in PvE that does not concern putting together the build. I don't know a how, just a where. Failure to say that proves my point.

Heroflagging in the 3rd level of the Shards of Orr... since it is relevant to this thread. I'm sure some people could manage to flag successfully around that section with the narrow corridor (after the entrance cavern) and the slightly wider portion with the poison jet and the three enemy groups in near aggro range.
Some people might even be able to flag quickly enough to reposition the heroes on the fly around that poison-jet and avoid aggroing multiple groups..... but I couldn't do it. I doubt even with assigned buttons for individual flags I would be quick enough to stop them doing something retarded there, and I sure as hell couldn't flag them back beyond the danger zone and STILL manage to lure the enemy group to them safely.

And if you want a slightly more random example..... I still haven't been able to pull off the Horns of the Ox > Falling Spider sequence. I just can't get FS to hit the enemy before they get back to their feet, for some reason. I know others can do it, even without an IAS... but somehow I haven't been able to. Insufficient reflexes I'll bet..... same as the reason why I can't interrupt effectively..... nor time the use of the Arcane Echoed Shadow Form just right so it activates before the skill resets and I get to keep the skill up perpetually.
These things take skill I don't have.

But if you want to chalk them down to experience alone... you'd have to say the very same for everything in life.... as if your definition of experience is that broad, then it encompasses everything "skill" stands for.