Curse

blue.rellik · Sep 16, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

To make it easy : Run MoW and Livia (Olias is too ugly which makes him inferior) with SS and some anti-caster/melee skills. Run Morghan or Hayda with a Motivation support Paragon build

Pick up Mhenlo, Lina, Eve and Herta. Plow through everything. Honestly I thought it was pretty easy since most enemies are around lvl 20 and normally we have a bunch of other allies following us bringing our party to 9 - 10 (with the most being 13 when doing Warband of Brothers. 13 guys is a lot anywhere).

Destroyers aren't Torment Demons or Titans, they're just high level monsters with decent skill bars and a healing skill.

Kissa · Sep 16, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

I didnt read the whole thread, but there is a very long thread called "An Open Letter to Anet" which basically says that GWEN is too easy. I guess it is hard to make all parties (Proplayer vs. Casual players) happy.

I walk around with Rit (Spirit Strengt Axe Warrior), 2 Eles, 1 MM, Lina, Mhenlo, Devona and Zho and it works pretty nicely. I havent done any dungeons tho with those heroes.

Burst Cancel · Sep 16, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

I think we can look at GW the same way. Why should we deny players the ability to play through all content in the game just because they don't want to get better - they're just looking for a good, fun experience. We don't have to as long as we have a system that allows people to play the way they want to. We have Hard Mode for the hard core - now let's get a system that let's us choose our challenge level in Normal Mode. Those just looking to kill a few hours can go with the safer route, but sacrifice the drop quality and amount, and those of us looking to ramp up the challenge without going into Hard Mode, can choose the more dangerous route, and be properly awarded for our successes.

As I've stated before, this comes down to how much you want to divide your playerbase. You could divide the game into Easy, Normal, and Hard modes. Or you could do Braindead Easy, Easy, Normal, and Hard. Or Braindead Easy, Easy, Normal, Hard, and Super-Extra Hard. Or we could just have Normal and Hard.

Your argument is basically that normal mode isn't easy enough, and we need an even easier mode for casual players. I'd wager that EoTN is hard for casual players now because EoTN lacks a Hard Mode. Therefore, I think that once HM is implemented, NM EoTN will be toned down like the other campaigns, and people can be happy again.

You also need to recognize that some content is always going to be out of reach of casual players. Most hardcore players find DoA pretty easy, but it's clearly not designed for casual players. Similarly, some levels or secret dungeons/bosses in other games are out of reach of casual players, because they're designed as a reward and challenge for the hardcore players. At some point, the fact that someone sucks at the game is going to prevent them from enjoying everything that a better player could - which is as it should be, otherwise there wouldn't be any reason to get better, and the game stagnates.

Mineria · Sep 16, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Unrealistic difficult...

... I don't think so

This is in Slaver's Exile (EoTN Elite Dungeon)

Hanok Odbrook · Sep 16, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

You also need to recognize that some content is always going to be out of reach of casual players. Most hardcore players find DoA pretty easy, but it's clearly not designed for casual players. Similarly, some levels or secret dungeons/bosses in other games are out of reach of casual players, because they're designed as a reward and challenge for the hardcore players. At some point, the fact that someone sucks at the game is going to prevent them from enjoying everything that a better player could - which is as it should be, otherwise there wouldn't be any reason to get better, and the game stagnates.

The fact that many players find the elite content like DoA, UW, or FoW easy is part of the problem. HM or not, the fact that many players, casual included, find a lot of the game too easy is a problem remedied by adjusting the combat system and not necessarily creating separate modes of play. A system that reduces the offensive capabilities of mobs, but ramps up their defenses and that rewards your choice of party formation, skill sets, attack chains, tactics in taking those mobs down can not only minimize the easy/hard complaints but can also be used to eliminate the solo bot farming problem and complaints about drop quality.

Thus far I am quite happy with EotN for the most part, my main complaints are that combat is still too simplified, and there is still that great gap in mob power between the ground level and dungeon level that doesn't necessarily prepare one for what to expect when heading underground. Since an overhaul in the combat system is probably an undertaking too extensive for the current game, I guess we will have to wait to see if HM is implemented for EotN and the NM adjusted accordingly, and hope that new refinements make it into GW2.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

Jaceb · Sep 16, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Dont know if anyone has mentioned but the new & improved Fendi Nin fight is pretty damn crazy. Damned Crewmen spawn spirits & spam AoE and
turn into Archers that interrupt tons, almost a total shutdown until you've killed a few of them. I wouldn't say its difficult with BHA ranger.
(You'll really want to shut down Fendi). But without one you'll be at the shrine over and over again :O.

Well i was there more than alive with the good old smiting team that i used before. I was kinda hoping for a fighting change without BHA but at least it's obvious now

.
Has anyone done the new fight? if so what are your views?.

Doing that fight at HM .. /shivers but i'm not complaining just that it was a little frustrating. Next time i'll bring a BHA and enjoy the free loot

Burst Cancel · Sep 16, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

The fact that many players find the elite content like DoA, UW, or FoW easy is part of the problem. HM or not, the fact that many players, casual included, find a lot of the game too easy is a problem remedied by adjusting the combat system and not necessarily creating separate modes of play. A system that reduces the offensive capabilities of mobs, but ramps up their defenses and that rewards your choice of party formation, skill sets, attack chains, tactics in taking those mobs down can not only minimize the easy/hard complaints but can also be used to eliminate the solo bot farming problem and complaints about drop quality.

You've talked about this at length before, and focusing on defense doesn't solve anything; rather, it actually relaxes any pressure in the game because even the bosses can't really kill you - you can basically take as long as you want to do anything, or hell, just afk in the middle of a pack of monsters with your heroes and henchies because you'll never die. Stalemates are uninteresting in every sense of the word, and that's frankly not where you want a game's equilibrium position to be.

And as I said, your system of set-rewards is just hand-holding and playstyle restriction. This game throws you a set of skills and mechanics and lets you figure out the rest. With your system, you would basically be saying, "Okay, you get reward X if you have these types of skillbars. You get reward Y if you use this type of combo. You get reward Z if you use this particular tactic". All of that already exists in Guild Wars - it's just not explicit. Hiding behind a wall grants you immunity to projectile attacks, which is a very strong reward for using smart tactics. Just because you don't see a giant "Bonus Earned!" somewhere doesn't mean you're not getting something for it.

Giving players a laundry list of bonus conditions and forcing them to meet those conditions or else be locked in stalemate forever with any monster they meet is frankly not my idea of a fun game.

As for solo bot farming - for nearly anything a player can do, a bot can be written to accomplish the same thing. If solo farming is possible, chances are solo bot farming will be also. And if solo farming is not possible, aren't you just restricting styles of gameplay?

Crom The Pale · Sep 16, 2007, 08:19 PM // 20:19

The problem of difficulty in any game is impossible to fix, simply because everyone plays very differntly.

Some find GW easy others hard.

Elite areas notwithstanding there is no map/quest/mission that 8 live people can not complete. This is the limit of balance that can be achieved. This means that some parts of the game are very hard with just Hench/Heros and a few outright impossible.

This game was meant to be played with people. Making it simple to do with hench/hero parties would reduce the game to something akin to a Nintendo game, first generation.

Hanok Odbrook · Sep 17, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

You've talked about this at length before, and focusing on defense doesn't solve anything; rather, it actually relaxes any pressure in the game because even the bosses can't really kill you - you can basically take as long as you want to do anything, or hell, just afk in the middle of a pack of monsters with your heroes and henchies because you'll never die. Stalemates are uninteresting in every sense of the word, and that's frankly not where you want a game's equilibrium position to be.

Changing to a solely defensive creature is not the be all and end all of the system. There would need to be AI changes to the creatures - a discussion I and another player had several months ago listing what we would like to see changed, but believe me - there would rarely be any stalemates - the mobs will win in the end if a party just goes afk or does not follow proper tactics. The mobs would have inherent offensive capabilites that would eventually kill off a party simply because the healers would end up stretched too thin with little energy left to go around. However, I do want to tone down the massive spikes and AOE of creatures that can take down characters and parties with in a many of a couple dozen seconds. And I don't think we can get much more hand-holding than the Dwarven Rep system that gives us damage/healing bonuses against Destroyers when active.

In a previous post detailing the attack chain system a bit more, I showed how players would need to be very active, very coordinated, and time their chains just right, otherwise they will pay the consequences. I don't know about anyone else, but if was in an 8 player attack chain and knew we had to successfully pull it off, otherwise it would result in a party wipe, and loss of the chance to pick up premium drops - my brow would be sweating just a bit. Now through into the mix a two player party rounded out with heroes who have to not only coordinate their own skills in the chain, but those of their heroes, and I think we have anything but an uninteresting system. The problem now is one that you yourself just stated - I can go afk during any battle and practically have the outcome remain the same - win or loose - we need something more. And the bonus system isn't any more handholding than we have now - say for SF that causes burning or causes extra damage to already burning creatures, or using a weapons mod that increases poison time by 33% or damage by 15%. All the new system does is add these types of bonuses to attacks so that the defenses of mobs can be overcome without ending in stalemate or failure, if the proper tactics are used.

In the current system we already have to choose specific skills in order to successfully vanquish an area, so what difference would the new system make in that case? Well, in the new system you wouldn't have to replace your hydro with a pyro to get an damage bonus against an Ice Elemental - you would simply chain a water skill with another player's attack skill to get the same effect, thus opening up more potential to varying tactics in a battle instead of limiting them.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

Karlos · Sep 17, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

I just want to say that "Unrealistic Difficulty" and "GW:EN" do not fit in the same sentence.

GW:EN's normal mode is very easy. There are a few dungeons where the presence of other human players will make it significantly easier (like Frostmaw's and the simple principle of not bunching up together under one Wurm Bile).

All you need to do is understand the dungeon and the challenges it presents. Don't take a Searing Flames ele hero to Kathandrax or a Minion Master to Oola's Lab. Just read and understand the dungeons on the wiki and then if you need help, just ask in town. Most of the above average difficulty dungeons (like Frostmaw's) have pugs doing them on a fairly regular basis.

But please... GW:EN does not need to be dumbed down any further. It's enough of a let down to me that players were finishing the "elite mission" with heroes and henchies with 3 days of the game's release. Our Guild group sweeps through the entire elite mission in one hour and 5 minutes.

Your issues are mostly not being ready for the challenge you're facing. If you need hero builds or something ask for them. But your problem is, by far, very limited in scope.

Cobalt · Sep 17, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

I agree with the OP some of the stuff in normal mode is just stupid hard.

The game, at least in normal mode, should be challenging but not to the point of making the player so angry they want to shove the designers head through his freaking monitor.

I recently beat Nightfall (normal mode), now I am playing Eye of the North and I can tell you there have been more than a few times I wanted to shove the designers head through his monitor, and would probably have if he was within grabbing distance.

The only way some of this stuff could possibly be easy for anyone is if they have gone out of their way to research builds/hero build and tactics for specific areas, quests, missions which I had to do through NightFall. In fact the last 6-7 or so missions in Nightfall required completely different teams, and builds/hero builds to be successful, especially since I was henching my way though most of them.

Something’s this complex should be reserved for hardmode, in normal mode you should be able to grab a team of henches and have at least a fair degree of success all the way through, which you absolutely do not.

Lady Lozza · Sep 17, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

The OP's character that was having a hard time was a monk. Unfortunately if you like playing healing or prot monks hh'ing it can be difficult because it requires a lot of signalling and party co-ordination to be done WHILE you are trying to heal/prot the party.

My suggestions for those who wish to play this way and are having problems are: 1) bring a warder ele, 2) bring a motivational paragon, 3) take 3 monks, or 4) change to smite and let the hench/heroes worry about the healing.

Sparks Dawnbringer · Sep 17, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Well, on a helpful note if you are having problems with a quest of dungeon try looking it up on wiki. They usually make excelent sugestions on what to take and skill sets. We have had parties wiped out but just kept going the moral boost at 25 kills is quite a lot. Staking heros and henchies and pulling is quite useful in many places. The destroyers are quite easy to kill with hexes and curses.

lordpwn · Sep 17, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

I expected GWEN to be much more difficult; yet I've found myself in a master level dungeon laughing and shouting "pull more" to the tank over the voice chat while taking on two enemy groups at once with around four human players and heroes filling out the party.

The slightly better mob builds (rezmer charr for example) might ruin some wammo's day but they don't make much difference with somewhat skilled players and decent builds; the AI's still just REacting, not acting, and they still get into tight clumps that get fire nuked/splinter barraged/SS'd into hell in a matter of seconds, not that they could get much done even if they lived a bit longer with their lack of teamwork.

Try starting with the easier dungeons if you can't make it through the hard ones. Even "generic" builds like your cookie cutter Barrage Rangers, Warrior tanks, Fire nukers and Monks with their bar full of 5e Healing Prayers spells can work well enough if played right.

Snow Bunny · Sep 18, 2007, 04:13 AM // 04:13

This game isn't difficult.

If you are unwilling to ADAPT in order to progress, you're a dumbass. So certain missions highly recommend a special addition to the team. WHo the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO cares? Just get the best you can and do it.

The only hard mission for me was the elusive golemancer, only because you had to stay within the ring of protection and the dumbass henchies kept running out of it.

And by the way. It's not that hard to do this as a monk. It might be difficult to focusfire if you're using a sword/axe and don't want to have to run up. In that case you just call it crtl+t. What is the average IQ of the person complaining about difficulty.

Next complaint should have a full team build, skills listed, so I can show you it's your build and nothing but.

EDIT: Because I feel like it.

blue.rellik · Sep 18, 2007, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt

I agree with the OP some of the stuff in normal mode is just stupid hard.

The game, at least in normal mode, should be challenging but not to the point of making the player so angry they want to shove the designers head through his freaking monitor.

I recently beat Nightfall (normal mode), now I am playing Eye of the North and I can tell you there have been more than a few times I wanted to shove the designers head through his monitor, and would probably have if he was within grabbing distance.

Nightfall end game is wayyyyyy harder than EotN end-game. Destroyer's are jokes, Torment Demons and Titans are way more frustrating. I can't see how you're having any trouble, have you tried running a good build?

Quote:

Something’s this complex should be reserved for hardmode, in normal mode you should be able to grab a team of henches and have at least a fair degree of success all the way through, which you absolutely do not.

You'll get angry but you just suck. I've ran the exact same team build all through EotN and had nearly no problems (except some places which are best with human players like fighting Cyndr) and even then it's disgustingly easy.

Etta · Sep 18, 2007, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt

The only way some of this stuff could possibly be easy for anyone is if they have gone out of their way to research
builds/hero build and tactics for specific areas, quests, missions which I had to do through NightFall. In fact the last
6-7 or so missions in Nightfall required completely different teams, and builds/hero builds to be successful, especially
since I was henching my way though most of them.

Wait, are you saying that one build should fit and work for all areas? That's exactly how to play the game, adapt a
new build for a new situation. Wow no wonder why so many people are so bad at this game.

How long were you stuck at the gate of madness?

blue.rellik · Sep 18, 2007, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

Wait, are you saying that one build should fit and work for all areas? That's exactly how to play the game, adapt a
new build for a new situation. Wow no wonder why so many people are so bad at this game.

How long were you stuck at the gate of madness?

OMG! Lich is out-damaging the healing from my warrior's healing hands! Nerf!

anshin · Sep 18, 2007, 10:24 AM // 10:24

i've used the same build since i got Burning Arrow... unless i do other stuff as the Bison Tournament...

as someone said... many, many, many posts before me, the difficulty depends on the person playing, if you need help ask someone you know, if both don't know ask the large community... the fault is not using the same build over and over -.- . it is not gathering enough information in order to expect what you are facing.

the only thing i find hard in NF is killing the stupid grenth avatar in Hard Mode... not because of him, because of the other four dervishes...

Cobalt · Sep 18, 2007, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

Wait, are you saying that one build should fit and work for all areas? That's exactly how to play the game, adapt a
new build for a new situation. Wow no wonder why so many people are so bad at this game.

Yes, I think in normal mode which is played by most casuals, anyone with cookie cutter builds, cookie cutter heros/henches should have a reasonable degree of success all the way through the game.

Guild Wars is not WOW they do not need you to keep playing it for months on end to get a monthly subscription fee. So there is no reason whatsoever to make it difficult to the point of making causals just up and quit. In many areas of Guild Wars there is content that Anet has clearly confused challenging with flat out idiotic hard. I mean, who knows how much in expansion sales Anet has lost because casuals refused to put of with some of this nonsense after Prophecies.

You really only should have to work out in depth tactics, modify specials builds/hero builds, use certain henches to augment those builds etc..., "adapt" as you say in hard mode because it is "hard mode".