Curse

yesitsrob · Nov 09, 2007, 12:35 PM // 12:35

One of the major differences with UB and some of the other PVE skills is you still have to build round them, on the individual characters and the team build themselves. A lot of the PVE skills are just extremely powerful version of some other skills, SY has similarities with WY, You move like a dwarf is similar to YAA. The thing is you can't just toss said skills on your bar and expect to win, you can toss skills like that on your bar and then build around them and win.

UB is a lot different really. You just put the one skill on your bar and have a DPS beast (I'm aware it's not as good as DSlash when it's peaking if you know how to warrior, but there's very few people that will be able to support a warrior and very few people that can actually warrior). The skill just gives you a solid bar. With the bar you can pretty much get away with activating skill 1 a lot, it won't get shut down really - in short it gives soemone a very good bar which is very hard to fail to use. I'm aware not all UB teams succeed at DoA, but those teams that fail must really be awful.

I'm not even going to kid for one second that SY doesn't make things mind numbing at times, but frankly I think that should be nerfed to shit too. I don't think I've said otherwise before either, I also think consumables were a horrible idea. At one time when we did DoA we had to actually think a bit and couldn't necesarilly get away with aggro'ing the map.

That said though, you nerf these and certain things in DoA are just going to outright suck. Too many physicals in Gloom and you probably won't get past it, I don't necesarilly think that means the skills shouldn't be balanced, i think it means they should design areas better instead of having some RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up mentallity of lol lets make game harder by giving bigger damage numbers to enemies and adding stupid environment effects o ok - The chances of any major overhauls on the PVE game design as a whole isn't going to happen though...

I personally don't think PVE skills for the most of it are particullary good for the game, but some in particular are way too strong (either because they are damn powerful - like Save Yourselves, or they are too powerful for how simple they are to use - like Ursan Blessing). I think the same for consumables, it really kills the whole skill over grind thing. They take very little skill, and take some grind.

tmakinen · Nov 09, 2007, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Thanks Rob, that was probably the most insightful and balanced post in this entire thread, and I wholeheartedly agree with you :clap:

mcsumo · Nov 09, 2007, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Yep spot on rob. Echoed my feelings on it all. I am using bears because I have no viable alternative. But I really wish I didn't have to.

Auron of Neon · Nov 09, 2007, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

These Elite zones were never meant to be limited to only a handfull of highly skilled players.

Yes it was, actually. Hence the word "elite."

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

Using Ursan Blessing in DoA does NOT automatically equal "GG".

Yes. Yes it does. If you manage to fail using Ursan Blessing, you are exactly the kind of player that should not be in DoA, the "elite" area of PvE which is supposed to be only conquerable by skilled players with great understanding of game mechanics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

i think it means they should design areas better instead of having some RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up mentallity of lol lets make game harder by giving bigger damage numbers to enemies and adding stupid environment effects o ok - The chances of any major overhauls on the PVE game design as a whole isn't going to happen though...

Agreed. Domain of Anguish was incredibly poorly designed. There's a difference between making something require skill to beat and making it hard in stupid ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

I personally don't think PVE skills for the most of it are particullary good for the game, but some in particular are way too strong (either because they are damn powerful - like Save Yourselves, or they are too powerful for how simple they are to use - like Ursan Blessing). I think the same for consumables, it really kills the whole skill over grind thing. They take very little skill, and take some grind.

Yeah, that's the crux of the issue. ANet designed the game to be skill over grind, and pretty much everyone who's been supporting UB has wanted the brainless, skill-less lolzpve grindfest made possible by consumables and UB and SY etc.

ANet failed terribly at many things. Designing Domain of Anguish was one of them. But instead of fixing it, I think they just add these items and skills to satiate the mass of unskilled players until GW2 comes out.

I'm convinced that ANet has given up their skill over grind creed entirely, and that we're just going to see more of this shit in GW2.

RTSFirebat · Nov 09, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Just my input: A.net DID design the game as Skill Over Time at first. But the game as changed since then.

Skill over time was throw out the window the moment PvE skills and *shudder* titles which takes hours upon hours of mindlessless grinding to complete were added.

10milion to max Luxon/Kurzick comes to mind >_<

I like UB mainly because it makes areas (Elite or otherwise) which take hours on end to complete, much quicker.

I not sure what other people think, but it can sometimes be a real drain doing 3+ hours in areas like the UW, FoW, etc... It doesn't mean I don't enjoy them, but it nice to use UB to do them much much quicker.

yesitsrob · Nov 09, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

I will point out though, I think there is a LOT that can be run in MOST of DoA that will still allow you to get through it comfortably for the most of it. You can simply avoid taking too much damage in the first place by not AoE'ing things. Enfeebling Blood still destroys a vast amount of physical pressure you'd take, Broadhead will still shuts down a caster indefinitely, Warriors can do an awful lot of damage, Eles have excellent utility and support damage and mesmers have great shutdown options - and I honestly wish that balanced teams that can do things like that were the ways of getting through these areas (not necesarilly them exact examples)... but apparently that's not Guild Wars PVE.

As a response to the "it's just a game argument" - yes it is, but just because it's a game doesn't mean it shouldn't have it's challenging aspects. For people that have spent a lot of time on it they do want end-game content that will be challenging for them and not necesarilly do-able by a casual player - but the vast majority of the game is suitable for a casual player, and the elite missions are optional - as it is, the elite missions were designed in such a way they were very hard or too easy at the same time depending on your approach. In WoW you can't do a lot of the end game without putting in a LOT of time, I'd have liked it in GW if it was being skilled at the game, perfecting team builds and other similar things that got you through it. It's an option but the mind numbing approach is easier and faster

I don't agree with the "let people play how they want" statements, quite honestly I despise the fact that to make areas challenging we'd have to run sub-optimal team builds to do that.

Now as for what anet thinks, who knows if they particullary care right now. They did take the time to tone down TNTF and Seed of Life when they were insane, and maybe now they'll consider doing it too the more abbused of the pve skills - and hopefully at the same time making some areas a different kind of challenge.

Mrrgh, on the positive side - it has brought people to do DoA, I just think it's a poor means of doing it, people don't go to DoA because harder GW content is made harder by bigger numbers and more enemies... poor excuse of a challenge I think.

I personally like Urgoz and The Deep, and I'd like Fissure and UW a lot more of they were a bit more difficult. I also quite enjoy Foundry and City but without PVE skills I would loathe Gloom and Veil. I also don't think some of the areas should take as long as they do, but again I feel a lot of them take so long because of how people approach them. Urgoz is doable in approximately 1 and a half hours with a very balanced team with enough AoE even without pve skills. I think a lot of it is the fault of people who think that trapping and SF'ing their way through it is a good idea - I'd like them if their were more boss type encounters as opposed to just at the very end (kinda like in WoW >_> ). Fissure has the oppertunity for some good encounters... like Tower of Strength.. it's like setting you up for some epic battle... and all that spawns is a Spiteful Necro that gets off one cast before he dies.

bungusmaximus · Nov 09, 2007, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Urgoz is doable in approximately 1 and a half hours with a very balanced team with enough AoE even without pve skills. I think a lot of it is the fault of people who think that trapping and SF'ing their way through it is a good idea

It is even doable with 9 heroes, and it's fun as hell to actually fight your way through intensively. More hard work plz, me likes.

beanerman_99 · Nov 09, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

Yes. Yes it does. If you manage to fail using Ursan Blessing, you are exactly the kind of player that should not be in DoA, the "elite" area of PvE which is supposed to be only conquerable by skilled players with great understanding of game mechanics.

I think you misread what I was trying to say in my post a few pages back. I said that I didn't want to use Ursan but the group I was in did not want me to use my ele skills. I told them I had no clue what I was doing as an Ursan as the only time I used it was on the GWEN quest that I had to use it. Actually, no one on the team had ever tried the Foundry so we all sucked. I still stand by what I said about an Ursan team being more balanced with like 4 people going Ursan, taking some monks, and filling the rest out with some other professions, be it eles, necros or whatever. But now you see the reverse of what was happening in DoA. Most Pugs are wanting everyone to be Ursan except for 2 monks. Hardly anyone wants a "balanced team" anymore. And IMO if a balanced team (one using a mix of ALL the professions)cannot beat an area then I say that area is severely broken and poorly designed.

And thank you for being so rude. Who are you to tell me I should not be in DoA? Everyone has to learn an area and where the pops are and what squence things should be done and such. I'm sure you know the game so well that you never failed on your first time through these areas.

When I did the Veil I went with a very experienced group. I told them I was new but that I would do what I was told, as I know mistakes lead to Fail. They took me in and I learned as I went and we beat it. But YOU are probably the type that refuses to take new people and teach them the ropes. I get sick of seeing "LFG of experienced people only" Ya, like I said, I am so sure you made it through each area your very first time.

lord dragon · Nov 09, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Touch rangers DPS don't even compare to Ursan, they also don't get the HP bonus, they also have no AoE...

WHAT?!?!?! My touch ranger would pwn my bear hands down. It is faster at attacks and can do more damamge per sec. As for HP, they get all they want from thier victims.

unienaule · Nov 09, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

WHAT?!?!?! My touch ranger would pwn my bear hands down. It is faster at attacks and can do more damamge per sec. As for HP, they get all they want from thier victims.

I'm done with this crap.

=HT=Ingram · Nov 09, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

I agree, time to close this rant fest. and as to the Prot bond thing above, I said they should have deleted the dam thing, and replaced it with something that could be used in its place. As it stands now its a skill that no one no where at any time will ever use. So its just taking up a potential skill space in the attribute. Otherwise known as a waste.

And If Anet does what some of you people seems to want. We end up with 3 more unused skills in the same manner. Loss of skills from a game is preferable to nerfing it to uselessness and pretending its still a valid skill for anything.

Faer · Nov 09, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Diversion? Distracting Shot? You won't want to bring your bear anywhere close to mobs with those skills.

Did you know that Stygian Veil, one of the main locations Ursan Blessing is being used in currently, is full of Rangers with Distracting Shot and Choking Gas? Did you know that there are plenty of Diversions being thrown around in other areas of DoA? Did you know that it's nice to research things before posting about them?

Bad arguments are bad.

Anyway, stop bringing up Touch Rangers. There's no way your 1337 pr0 TR can take on the shit that UB rapes constantly. Other than the unblockable damage that goes through melee shutdown, there's no real comparison to be made there. Bringing them up just makes you look dumb, and I don't think you want anybody flaming you for it.

Crom The Pale · Nov 09, 2007, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Here I am trying to think of an argument that will persuade those opposed to PvE skills and Consumables to change their minds, but that will never happen.

These people have chosen their path and will not waver, this does not make them correct.

People on both sides of this argument have a tremendous amount of skill, both PvE and PvP.

I wonder what new players think of this skill, or this entire thread for that matter. People that didn't get to join pugs 2 years ago and make friends and join guilds and struggle with THK or face Willa with only one interupt. How many new players are never going to get the chance to see what DoA is all about beyond the first time they enter that zone and get total owned because the pug they joined has no clue of what to expect.

Perhpas we should post a sign at the entrance of all Elite zones stating what guilds and alliances are permitted to play them and all others are denied access.

Maybe we all need to step back and take a deep breath and remeber this is just a game. Something we play to escape our real world problems. Some means of releasing tension and frustration, not building up more.

Its about having a little fun.

DivineEnvoy · Nov 09, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Skill_balance
"A skill balance is a game update that is aimed at changing certain skills in Guild Wars to make them weaker/stronger as the Designers see fit to maintain a balance between all builds.

The main concept behind skill balancing is to prevent any set of skills in a build (say a healing monk)from becoming overpowered to the point where no other build is used to achieve the purpose of that build, simply because it would not make sense. In PvP, the player community will always go for the most efficient build. As such if one build is proven to be a lot more effective than all other builds, everyone in the community will simply run that build and ignore all others, removing diversity from the game as well as a lot of excitement. In PvE, if a build is far more effective at killing monsters than any other build, everyone will simply play that build to farm those monsters and, again, variety will be taken out of the game as well as a possible inflation in the game's economy. "

So far in the thread, most people claim that Ursan Blessing is overpowered, and therefore, it should be nerfed for the sake of the balance. However, as noted from the quote there, skill balance is made to give players a more variety as the community have discovered the most efficient build to play with. Just let you know, people will always find the most efficient build to play with, and "Ursan Blessing" will continue to rebirth itself. If so, nothing will really change.

Secondly, skill balance is really making skills weaker or stronger to maintain a balance between all builds. Why do some of you people keep suggesting to remove the pve-only skills? You know it's not going to happen.

Lastly, to the people who just randomly making statements, if you are going to make a statement to another person's opinion, would it kill you to provide some valid or invalid reasons?

Simath · Nov 09, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Here I am trying to think of an argument that will persuade those opposed to PvE skills and Consumables to change their minds, but that will never happen.

Or maybe it's because all the counter-arguments of yours and the other various UB defenders are awful and far from the truth. Saying this is just a game and that PvE doesn't need balance is the absolutely dumbest argument.

As for the "People can now Pug and couldn't before" argument that to is garbage. Puging is not vital to beating the game. It is only an option. H/H is quite viable and in most instances better than pugs. It's claimed that pugs don't take players if they aren't running some type of cookie cutter build. Well, pugs don't want players who aren't a certain rank in the Norn title either. So the player discrimination argument is, and as are the other arguments, false.

DivineEnvoy · Nov 09, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

Or maybe it's because all the counter-arguments of yours and the other various UB defenders are awful and far from the truth. Saying this is just a game and that PvE doesn't need balance is the absolutely dumbest argument.

As for the "People can now Pug and couldn't before" argument that to is garbage. Puging is not vital to beating the game. It is only an option. H/H is quite viable and in most instances better than pugs. It's claimed that pugs don't take players if they aren't running some type of cookie cutter build. Well, pugs don't want players who aren't a certain rank in the Norn title either. So the player discrimination argument is, and as are the other arguments, false.

Just let you know, we are not against the general idea of balancing PVE. We are against the idea presented by some people here who believe that balancing PVE is to delete the skills and options they don't use. How's that dumb?
Of course, pick up groups are not vital to beating the game, but who has stated that we must use pick up groups to beat the game here? No one. However, we have stated that in various areas, pick up groups are essential to complete the area. For example, DoA has no henches, if you go by yourself, that's only you and three heroes. It is rather mandatory to find another human being in such locations.
As far as titles are considered in PVE, no one really cares if you are not one of the ten people who have max norn title in the game.
Please do some researches before you decide to flame someone. It's better that way.

Auron of Neon · Nov 09, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

And thank you for being so rude. Who are you to tell me I should not be in DoA?

An objective third-party onlooker with a brain. If you can't use UB to win, you definitely can't run anything that takes skill to win; thus, you aren't skilled enough or knowledgeable enough with the way Guild Wars works to be getting DoA loot. The point of Avarre's earlier post is that you can still work your way up there, but in the meantime, you shouldn't be getting 5 tormented shields and the like.

Quote:

But YOU are probably the type that refuses to take new people and teach them the ropes.

Damn straight. I don't play Guild Wars to fail.

Quote:

I am so sure you made it through each area your very first time.

I don't believe I've ever said that, but your assumption flatters me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

As far as titles are considered in PVE, no one really cares if you are not one of the ten people who have max norn title in the game.

Good job missing the point entirely. I'm glad this thread hasn't run out of fail yet.

Simath · Nov 09, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Just let you know, we are not against the general idea of balancing PVE. We are against the idea presented by some people here who believe that balancing PVE is to delete the skills and options they don't use. How's that dumb?
Of course, pick up groups are not vital to beating the game, but who has stated that we must use pick up groups to beat the game here? No one. However, we have stated that in various areas, pick up groups are essential to complete the area. For example, DoA has no henches, if you go by yourself, that's only you and three heroes. It is rather mandatory to find another human being in such locations.
As far as titles are considered in PVE, no one really cares if you are not one of the ten people who have max norn title in the game.
Please do some researches before you decide to flame someone. It's better that way.

Flame? I think not. I was merely pointing out that there has yet to be one valid counter-argument towards UB being nerfed. Nothing substantial has yet to make it into the spot light and I doubt there ever will unless someone with decent knowledge of the game decides to defend it.

DivineEnvoy · Nov 09, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

Good job missing the point entirely. I'm glad this thread hasn't run out of fail yet.

How am I missing the point? Provide reasons please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

Flame? I think not. I was merely pointing out that there has yet to be one valid counter-argument towards UB being nerfed. Nothing substantial has yet to make it into the spot light and I doubt there ever will unless someone with decent knowledge of the game decides to defend it.

Some of your lines above are not very respectful. Everything that is needed to be said has been said. Basically you are claiming that the rest of us has no valid counter-arguements; it would be better for you to point out what this one valid counter-arguement instead of just talking in air.

knoll · Nov 09, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Some of your lines above are not very respectful. Everything that is needed to be said has been said. Basically you are claiming that the rest of us has no valid counter-arguements; it would be better for you to point out what this one valid counter-arguement instead of just talking in air.

Can you show me one valid argument you have and tell me how it is valid?