Curse

trobinson97 · Nov 02, 2007, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonde Warrior

So you complete the underworld using ursanway and now ask for it to be nerfed wtf?

Please note that screenshot has no /age. Right now that guy is just being a parrot. Also, it's as you say, other builds can clear UW and FoW in similar times, he just never knew you could clear so fast until his friends told him to bring Ursan. So what, do we nerf all things that allow you to clear in the same or less amount of time?

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I like to Coöperate with others , using ursan once is fun but all the time no thank you

I hope you're not one of the ones hoping it gets nerfed and that this is your basis of argument.

Free Wind · Nov 02, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Please note that screenshot has no /age.

Even without insainely overpowered godmode skill (which is what Ursan is) and with 5 heroes you can clear UW in 2 - 2.5 hours.

With "Ursan /godmode On" and 8 human absusing it you can steamroll UW in less then 1 hour 30 min

2.35 entire UW, no UB (we never rushed):

Crom The Pale · Nov 02, 2007, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Ok so we want the game to be harder or we just do not like that it is easier for some people than others???

Why not remove Protective Spirit from the game to take out all the 55 builds?

And lets reduce all monk healing by 75% while were at it, then the game would really be a challenge.

Ursan Blessing is a great PvE only Elite skill, but it certainly is not the strongest skill in the game nor should it be nerfed. IF you think UW is to ease with it,then don't take it in the first place.

Whiskeyjack · Nov 02, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

@ arcant- Firstly i would like to thank youfor responding in an intelligent manner, there seem's to be a lack of that in this thread.

draxynnic, even though half jokingly, has pretty much summed up why Ursan is a problem. We all aware of the deficincies of the ai in intelligently countering players, however it is still reasonably common(i.e blind, miss hexes etc). You used E-denial as an example of a counter to Ursan, this works in theory not in practice. In PvE this is the rarest and probably weakest type of counter, and in reality makes little difference to the bear, as an example when i initially toyed around with Ursan i used it in slavers, I was surged by two roaring ethers at once, and was back to full energy in a few seconds.

In relation to your OF example, i would say that the best counter the ai could make to that is to ignore it(i really do wish anet would upgrade the ai) rather than remove the worhless enchantment.

I do understand where you are coming from though, the ai does not use its counters intelligently but they often have them in such numbers that they will hit the correct target, even if only accidently. At the moment Ursan trumps every counter used in PvE, thats what makes it overpowered in my view.

@ Crom the pale

"Why not remove Protective Spirit?"
This was mentioned in another thread about ursan, even though these skills are worlds apart. Protective spirit is absolutley FUNDAMENTAL to balance at this stage, if it was removed it would completley break the game(Izzy admitted so himself). Ursan is just a cheap gimmick that gets around counters for players who are to lazy to play skillfully or play with decent bars.

trobinson97 · Nov 02, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack

Ursan is just a cheap gimmick that gets around counters for players who are to lazy to play skillfully or play with decent bars.

Which is why it shoulf be left alone because no one should be told how to play in their own pve instance. If I want to be lazy or not take pve so seriously as to use it as a measure of my skill, why does it matter to other folks?

Whiskeyjack · Nov 02, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Which is why it shoulf be left alone because no one should be told how to play in their own pve instance. If I want to be lazy or not take pve so seriously as to use it as a measure of my skill, why does it matter to other folks?

One of the key concept's of GW is supposed be that player skill should determine success, now most will realise that has not been true for a while but thats no reason that we should go to the other extreme, that player skill is irrelevant.

Shanaeri Rynale · Nov 02, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

in Isolation you are right. However in the wider aspect of the game it's potentially damaging. Why?

Because players in general want the easy route, they don't want to learn the skills and just run the same thing over and over and over again.

Ursan and it's cousins throw away the many thousands of build combinations in favor of just 5 + a limited scope of healing builds. In short it turns a skill based game into an FPS.

Since people in general will take the easy way, if available then it naturally follows that the 'easy way' will grow in popularity leaving those who want to use other builds out in the cold.

Now in a good guild/alliance environment this is less of an issue but the temptation is always there.

The effect on the PvE game will be more and more people turning away from using skills and builds to suit their profession and relying on Ursan et al. Ursan does more than greatly reduce the reliance on builds, but it creates a new quasi profession, 'the ursan' which dlutes the borders between professions even more and thus creates even more simplification and therefore stagnation.

Stagnation in any kind of MMO is very bad, and in it's own way and for the reasons above Ursan adds to it.

trobinson97 · Nov 02, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack

One of the key concept's of GW is supposed be that player skill should determine success, now most will realise that has not been true for a while but thats no reason that we should go to the other extreme, that player skill is irrelevant.

Player skill in PvE goes no further than deciding what build is best to beat the set builds of the monster AI in whatever area you choose. After that, you're just pressing buttons anyway. Ursan doesn't take that away from anyone, it may just lessen the amount of buttons you press seeing as there are only 3 attacks on a UB bar.

Also, if playing with a different bar is important to you, UB doesn't take that away, as you can use whatever you want. Make the game as hard, or as easy as you like, but I really can't get behind the reasoning of trying to decide how others should think or play. Like you said, the whole thing about skill>time went out of the window when skills became tied to title ranks. It only remains true in PvP, where it really belongs. Balance in PvE is nigh impossible, the ai will always have a set build and you will always spec to beat it. That's not balance, that's pve-ing.

Whiskeyjack · Nov 02, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Player skill in PvE goes no further than deciding what build is best to beat the set builds of the monster AI in whatever area you choose. After that, you're just pressing buttons anyway. Ursan doesn't take that away from anyone, it may just lessen the amount of buttons you press seeing as there are only 3 attacks on a UB bar.

Also, if playing with a different bar is important to you, UB doesn't take that away, as you can use whatever you want. Make the game as hard, or as easy as you like, but I really can't get behind the reasoning of trying to decide how others should think or play. Like you said, the whole thing about skill>time went out of the window when skills became tied to title ranks. It only remains true in PvP, where it really belongs. Balance in PvE is nigh impossible, the ai will always have a set build and you will always spec to beat it. That's not balance, that's pve-ing.

I'll take your post with a pinch of salt since I am pretty sure you just enjoy winding people up. I am not claiming that PvE is a high skill activity( though not as skillless as you are suggesting), but that does not mean checks and balances are not required. The comparison between PvP and PvE is pretty worthless tbh, the two are basically different games at this point and PvP has significant balance problem's of its own. Is skill really still the determining factor in PvP, sure though thats probably less true now than it was in the past.

Shanaeri summed it up better than I have managed in his/her post, if you can't see the reasoning behind that post I guess we just need to accept that we will never agree on this issue.

trobinson97 · Nov 02, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

This has nothing to with winding people up. True, I see Shanaeri's point, but in the end it still comes down to one person's opinion trying to force itself on to everyone else's play style. For example, if all I do is use Ursan Blessing, will I get bored with it after a while? Most likely yes, but that's just me. Just because I'm not bored with it does not mean I am going to go out and say everyone is bored with it. What's stagnant in the game for me may be refreshing for someone else, so why should I force my opinion on them. Even if it is stagnant for them and they still choose to play it, it's none of my affair.

I've already accepted that we will never agree on this issue because I believe a player's right to choose how he/she wants to play overrules my desire that they play the way I want them to.

phan · Nov 02, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Wind

Even without insainely overpowered godmode skill (which is what Ursan is) and with 5 heroes you can clear UW in 2 - 2.5 hours.

With "Ursan /godmode On" and 8 human absusing it you can steamroll UW in less then 1 hour 30 min

2.35 entire UW, no UB (we never rushed):

[note] You did use the consumables and they last 30minutes each .. x 5 for the 2 hours and a half that get quite costy .
And you have 2 player monks .. something that not everyone can have.

I say .. abuse this skill if you feel alright with it

.. need a challenge ? don't use it x

Simath · Nov 02, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Player skill in PvE goes no further than deciding what build is best to beat the set builds of the monster AI in whatever area you choose.

That is so inaccurate. If you don't know how to efficiently monk then how do you think your party is going survive? If you don't know how to control aggro then you're not a good warrior. If you don't understand that keeping party members in your bubble is what chants/shouts become effective then you don't know how to play Paragon. There's a lot more to Player skill than the skillbar, saying otherwise is sheer ignorance. If you can't stay on the called target your not good. You can't just throw a skill bar together that will work in that area and expect to be good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Make the game as hard, or as easy as you like, but I really can't get behind the reasoning of trying to decide how others should think or play.

Every time Anet nerfs a skill they are deciding how others should play would you like them to stop and let the game be played in complete disarray? Everytime a player joins a PuG and that teams says you MUST run UB is that not telling that player how to play the game? I believe it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Like you said, the whole thing about skill>time went out of the window when skills became tied to title ranks.

Not true. You can still be skilled and have a carefree attitude towards titles.

trobinson97 · Nov 02, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

[QUOTE=Simath]That is so inaccurate. If you don't know how to efficiently monk then how do you think your party is going survive? If you don't know how to control aggro then you're not a good warrior. If you don't understand that keeping party members in your bubble is what chants/shouts become effective then you don't know how to play Paragon. There's a lot more to Player skill than the skillbar, saying otherwise is sheer ignorance. If you can't stay on the called target your not good. You can't just throw a skill bar together that will work in that area and expect to be good.[quote]

Finally posting like grown up eh? Good job. It's not inaccurate though. I've played long enough and been in enough bad Pugs with bad monks and still survived to know it doesn't take a skilled monk to ensure survivability. Every class has their own self heal for a reason. Can't stay on the called target? Lol, press T and spacebar, that doesn't take skill. I've played and succeeded with many "bad" warriors to know that you can indeed throw a skill bar together and be "good" (i.e. beat the quest, mission) in PvE.

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Every time Anet nerfs a skill they are deciding how others should play would you like them to stop and let the game be played in complete disarray? Everytime a player joins a PuG and that teams says you MUST run UB is that not telling that player how to play the game? I believe it is.

Sure is, but last time I checked (and I nver checked), you weren't an employee of Anet. Just because the government can make a law doesn't mean the civilians can make them. Just because NFL execs can create rules and decide what's aloowed or not doesn't mean the players can do the same thing. Good try though.

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Not true. You can still be skilled and have a carefree attitude towards titles.

Now you're just making my point for me. Choose to do what you like.

Racthoh · Nov 02, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

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Originally Posted by trobinson97

Sure is, but last time I checked (and I nver checked), you weren't an employee of Anet. Just because the government can make a law doesn't mean the civilians can make them. Just because NFL execs can create rules and decide what's aloowed or not doesn't mean the players can do the same thing. Good try though.

I don't think that quite applies; don't run what the pug wants and they kick you.

trobinson97 · Nov 02, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I don't think that quite applies; don't run what the pug wants and they kick you.

They don't stop you from playing the way you want to. You can still do that, just not with them. Don't confuse the pug (players) with skills (laws, in that analogy). If I as a QB call a play in the huddle and the RB or WR doesn't like it, they hit the bench and I bring someone in who will.

Simath · Nov 02, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Finally posting like grown up eh? Good job. It's not inaccurate though. I've played long enough and been in enough bad Pugs with bad monks and still survived to know it doesn't take a skilled monk to ensure survivability. Every class has their own self heal for a reason. Can't stay on the called target? Lol, press T and spacebar, that doesn't take skill. I've played and succeeded with many "bad" warriors to know that you can indeed throw a skill bar together and be "good" (i.e. beat the quest, mission) in PvE.

Once again saying that skills can be slapped on a skillbar and them not requiring skill is like saying, oh and look what I'm about to do, an NFL player being given the perfect play to counter the defensive/offensive formation and being called a good player. Just because they were running the right play at the right time against a weak opposing formation doesn't mean that player is skilled. That or the individual is surrounded by good players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Sure is, but last time I checked (and I nver checked), you weren't an employee of Anet.

When did I ever claim to be an employee of Anet. Please do inform me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobionson97

Just because the government can make a law doesn't mean the civilians can make them.

You clearly know very little of democracy. The government serves the will of the people and in a democracy people are given a voice in deciding what government should do and not do. Bills are a perfect example of civilians being active in law. So next time you attempt to make a point you should at least have the slightest clue was to what you are talking about.

Without people for the government to serve there would wouldn't be one. Without a player base for Anet to serve their would be no GW's.

Also next time keep weak RL analogies out of your points.

trobinson97 · Nov 02, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

Once again saying that skills can be slapped on a skillbar and them not requiring skill is like saying, oh and look what I'm about to do, an NFL player being given the perfect play to counter the defensive/offensive formation and being called a good player. Just because they were running the right play at the right time against a weak opposing formation doesn't mean that player is skilled. That or the individual is surrounded by good players.

Huh, Which only proves once again, that it doesn't always take skill, especially in PvE.

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When did I ever claim to be an employee of Anet. Please do inform me.

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Originally Posted by Me

I really can't get behind the reasoning of trying to decide how others should think or play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

Every time Anet nerfs a skill they are deciding how others should play

Now, I know it doesn't take the highest levels of reading comprehension to know that my comment was in reference to players trying to dictate how others play. Surely you knew that (I hope but you never know), but whatever.

Quote:

You clearly know very little of democracy. The government serves the will of the people and in a democracy people are given a voice in deciding what government should do and not do. Bills are a perfect example of civilians being active in law. So next time you attempt to make a point you should at least have the slightest clue was to what you are talking about.

Without people for the government to serve there would wouldn't be one. Without a player base for Anet to serve their would be no GW's.

Good you apparently get it (although government doesn't automatically mean democracy, but whatever, we'll roll with it), then serve the will of the people Anet and don't nerf PvE skills.

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Also next time keep weak RL analogies out of your points.

Your football rebuttal was rather weak, so if you can do it so can I.

Zahr Dalsk · Nov 03, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Why would arenanet nerf it? It's PvE only and they don't care about PvE, as evidenced by the fact that their nerfs are almost all based on abuse of skills in PvP.

Cobalt · Nov 03, 2007, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Ursan and it's cousins throw away the many thousands of build combinations in favor of just 5 + a limited scope of healing builds. In short it turns a skill based game into an FPS.

Stagnation in any kind of MMO is very bad, and in it's own way and for the reasons above Ursan adds to it.

Aren't we heading down this path anyway?

With skills being nerft every time we turn around which in turn is narrowing and narrowing our choices and limiting our builds.

Crom The Pale · Nov 03, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

This thread, like many many before it is really not about any one skill in particular but in the need for some people to control how others play the game.

Pugs demand someone runs a build that they can't or won't and people start to complain its the skills fault.

The easiest means of vanquishing many maps could be to take a party of 5 MM's a tank and 2 monks, but people do not demand this because they know its not practical.

The only reason people are asking for Ursan Blessing is because they know its very likely that most players know have the skill if they have access to it.

If this skill was only useable for wars would people demand that every party member choose war as thier secondary proff?

The only time Ursan Blessing becomes over powered is when half or all of the party members use it. This is true of many elites and non elites skills.

8 players using Obsidian Flame can deal massive dmg quickly and easily but we don't see a cry for every player to use this because people refuse to have thier skill bars dictated to them at every turn.

Take a single player with ursan blessing and 7 hench out and see if it totaly overpowers foes on hard mode, I think you all know the answer.