Curse

Pandora's box · Jan 21, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

I've no problems if I have to prepare myself. I completed 2 campaigns and EotN so I know my way in the game. But I don't like it to find out my build is wrong at the end of the level and the need to reformat my team for about every other dungeon. That's simply not done for playing 1 or 2 hours at the end of the evening. I know most people here like hard games, but since we have HM for that...

Shanaeri Rynale · Jan 21, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

I think Murukai in Normal mode has waay more HP than in Hard mode, not seen it fixed on a bug update.

Unholy Tank V · Jan 21, 2008, 07:48 PM // 19:48

I have beaten every dungeon useing the same exact H/H team on everyone.

3 Monks- 2 heal 1 Prot
1 Necro-Blood Ritual
2 Mele-2 Wars or 1 Derv/1War
2 Ele- Nukers

tmr819 · Jan 21, 2008, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

... Murakai, Remnant of Antiquities... And lots more are bosses who require a special team build to beat them. I did it with Cyndr but I'm getting a bit tired that I have to figure it out time after time. Its not the way I like to play. And its not the way I like to end the evening.

Playing 3 dungeon levels smootly should not end in puzzle where you:
1. have to figure out a completely new build
2. have to capture a new skillset before you can continue

Maybe this is fun for HM players but please let NM players do it the way they like to play most: explore, kill, some puzzles and a satisfactory smooth end of the level. Giving a good feeling when you turn the computer off and go to sleep.

Murakai/Temple of the Damned was a wakeup call for me. Took me quite a while to get to Murakai my first time through that dungeon and I got my rear-end handed to me by the boss at the end. I was sooo

and

.

However, and meaning no disrespect, if you are a casual player and don't want to get to the end of a dungeon and ... LOSE ... you need to plan ahead. I will tell you right now that some (most, in fact) of the dungeon end bosses make Murakai and Remnant of Antiquities look like real wimps.

Next time, prepare beforehand. Some dungeons are going to be particularly brutal and unforgiving (e.g., Catacombs of Kathandrax; Vloxen Excavations; the "Master's Quests" dungeons Shards of Orr, Frostmaw's Burrows, and Rragar's Menagerie; and, of course, Slaver's Exile

) if you fail to, as others have suggested, do your "homework" before you head into them.

crazybanshee · Jan 21, 2008, 11:27 PM // 23:27

No, normal mode was easy enough. I play an ele, basically an sf nuker and I remember when gwen came out pretty much ALL you heard were sf nukers
b!tching about how they couldn't be sf nukers anymore, wah wah wah, why is cruel anet making us play other builds. You know what? I'm glad they made me switch builds. I finally could stop playing on autopilot and play with some new skills. I dig playing air spiker and earth tank too. Water not so much, it has its purpose but I like dealing damage. And quite frankly, within days of gwen being around everything you ever need to know was on wiki already, so you never have to go to a dungeon with the wrong heroes/wrong builds. And consumables are a waste of money except in very few hm areas.

angmar_nite · Jan 22, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

these people never realized how challenging THK used to be. I beat HOS with a three necro build running SH.

Arkantos · Jan 22, 2008, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

I've no problems if I have to prepare myself. I completed 2 campaigns and EotN so I know my way in the game. But I don't like it to find out my build is wrong at the end of the level and the need to reformat my team for about every other dungeon. That's simply not done for playing 1 or 2 hours at the end of the evening. I know most people here like hard games, but since we have HM for that...

Is reading wiki too hard for you? :\

We don't necessarily want a hard game, no. But we do want the game to be somewhat challenging. As it is, NM is quite easy, and it doesn't need to be dumbed down more then it already is. Read up on the enemies skills and counter them, that's all NM is.

Wrath of m0o · Jan 22, 2008, 01:32 PM // 13:32

EoTn NM is not hard. Well maby since ive been playing for 3 years and i think i know what im doing at times, i can say that. You should learn to play Guildwars on Prophecies first, imo. Then move onto factions and Nightfall, Learn some builds, cap some elites. EoTn was supposed to be challenging, and im glad it is, it gives us seasoned players something to do besides sit back and hit C-spacebar.
And no, it definatly shouldnt get any easier than it already is.

Wakka · Jan 22, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

I always thought expansion packs were supposed to be harder than the original? No? *shrugs*

Pandora's box · Jan 22, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Is reading wiki too hard for you? :\

Lately I’ve spend more time in reading the wiki than actually playing the game. That’s not my idea of having fun in Normal Mode. If its happening 1 time, ok, no problem. But for every new dungeon?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakka

I always thought expansion packs were supposed to be harder than the original? No? *shrugs*

And it is! With all level 20+ monsters around it gives exactly what we can expect from an expansion. But endlevel bosses wiping out parties in one blow? I don’t understand how anyone can like that. I mean, a skill like Murakai's Storm of Souls, that’s just insane! Should never be allowed in Normal Mode!

Another thing that is bothering me is that EotN often is mentioned as a testing place for GW2. If I buy GW2 I want to be 100% sure that I can play all content. It should not be a game where only so called 'elite players' with lots of time for studying can beat sweet bonus features. If EotN is really a testcase, than there is much work to do before everyone is satisfied.

Arkantos · Jan 22, 2008, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Lately I’ve spend more time in reading the wiki than actually playing the game. That’s not my idea of having fun in Normal Mode. If its happening 1 time, ok, no problem. But for every new dungeon?

It takes less then 5 minutes to find the information you need. Once you have it, you won't need to read it again.

Normal mode isn't supposed to be super easy. It's not supposed to be hard either. That's why it's in between (excluding elite areas). Of course some parts are going to be challenging, why would anyone play a game if there was no challenge?

I think you just need to get better at the game, plain and simple. When you come across an obstacle, instead of whining and asking for it to be made easier, overcome it. Thousands of others have beaten it, there's no reason why you can't.

AlienFromBeyond · Jan 22, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

...People have trouble with Murakai in NM? I farmed that dungeon in my sleep before we got HM in GWEN.

Pandora's box · Jan 22, 2008, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienFromBeyond

...People have trouble with Murakai in NM? I farmed that dungeon in my sleep before we got HM in GWEN.

Actually I still don't understand it myself. I assumed it was Murakai's Storm of souls killing me but at the other hand... My party was doing quite well, attacking from the east, all enmies there killed. Murakai slowly went down and my party was healing itself quite well. Than suddenly... BWAM! all members from almost max to zero health, complete party wiped out...

Longasc · Jan 23, 2008, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

Than suddenly... BWAM! all members from almost max to zero health, complete party wiped out...

Does it really matter that much when you can continue from the Rez Shrine, use one of them any consumables and maybe just daze Murakai or use Protective Spirit or spread the party out?

@tmakinen: About what strawman argument are you talking, my examples were there to demonstrate what is supposedly too hard for a player that finds NM too difficult and wants an easy mode!

It seems to me you are on a quest to make things so smooth and easy that nothing is left. What are "rough edges" to you? What is a "gimmick build"?

So you consider Cyndr too hard in NM for certain parties. I disagree, it cannot be made easier without losing all appeal.

Balance does not seem to be the strong point of ANet. If something it is considered too difficult, it is only a matter of time till ANY obstacle that ANYONE could ever fail there gets removed. And this is wrong.

The OP was complaining about normal mode being too hard in general. And forget about this OP doing that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

A balanced H+H team can beat Shards of Orr.

Agreed. Does this mean Shards does need to get even more "balanced" because some people cannot do it? Not at all.

JoeKnowMo · Jan 23, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

I think the OP's unfortunate choice of the thread's title derailed this thing from the very beginning.

The thread should have been titled: "Should dungeon end-bosses require specialized builds?"

Quoting the OP:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

Way too often I find myself in a hopeless situation when I finally get to the endlevel monster. Cyndr, Murakai, Remnant of Antiquities... And lots more are bosses who require a special team build to beat them. I did it with Cyndr but I'm getting a bit tired that I have to figure it out time after time. Its not the way I like to play. And its not the way I like to end the evening.

The OP is not requesting that NM be toned down all over. The OP is suggesting that balanced builds that work in all areas of a dungeon often fail at the end boss thanks to a few missing skills.

Discuss.

Wakka · Jan 23, 2008, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

The OP is not requesting that NM be toned down all over. The OP is suggesting that balanced builds that work in all areas of a dungeon often fail at the end boss thanks to a few missing skills.

Discuss.

Have a quick gander at wiki before hand.

You cant blame the game if you come unprepared.

EDIT: Also consumables help.

Melody Cross · Jan 23, 2008, 12:51 PM // 12:51

I see the OPs point, but disagree with it too. GW:EN was intended as elite content for players who had already beaten the game(s). Dungeons are elite content for players who have beaten GW:EN and have nothing better to do than farm. If nothing n NM was difficult it would be easy mode, not normal.

GGs

greywolf31 · Jan 23, 2008, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Originally I felt the same way as the OP especially in regards to the Remnant.
I thought if my builds can get through the dungeon why can't I get through the Boss? Sure he should be harder, but I should still be able to take him down. I tried a ton of things...
But in the end it was perseverance, a willingness to adapt and improvise, and finally I overcame the obstacle.

Now NM in GW:EN is not your NM in the other campaigns that's for sure.
I find it frustrating but in the end when I do beat it I feel great about it.
It was a challenge!
Sure it may take me longer than most to get it done as I am slow in the adapting dept. lol

Here is an example of how I did it...
I took down the Remnant last night with my Mesmer.
Used Ursan Blessing (@ norn 6), MoW & Livia (Sab's), Pyre (Int), Zho, Cynn, Lina, and Mhenlo.

I flagged my party into the dead zone on the left, maybe a bit too far out as the last battle seemed to take a while, but it worked.

Notes on H&Hs...
My usual team aside from my Char is, the 3 Necros, Cynn/Herta, Eve, Lina, Mhenlo.

I tried it w/o Eve last night and noticed no Major difference in e-management.

I added Zho and it seemed to help with keeping up pressure.
(It prolly helped with the interrupting as well, but I am sure I couldn't tell you... lol)
So the new lineup will be Zho replaces Eve.
I'll keep switching Cynn and Herta as needed, or if I don't need interrupt I'll use both Cynn and Herta, and see if e-management is still not an issue.

Adapt, Improvise, and Overcome!

So what if it pisses ya off, hell I am pissed off a lot by my inabilities to "walk" right through stuff.
The bigger the pain the greater the sense of accomplishment.

It's all in the attitude you take.

BTW- Thanks to all of you on Guru for your advise and tips. Wiki may be our friend but you guys are our allies.

tekDragon · Jan 23, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Yes... GW is a game about adapting, tweaking your strategy, and trying different approaches. Unfortunately the OP is unwilling to do that (look at some of his/her earlier posts) and therein lies the problem.

Wakka · Jan 23, 2008, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Here is an example of how I did it...
I took down the Remnant last night with my Mesmer.
Used Ursan Blessing (@ norn 6), MoW & Livia (Sab's), Pyre (Int), Zho, Cynn, Lina, and Mhenlo

This may come as a shock to you all, but there are other people in Guild Wars. The game isn't designed for H/H (except maybe NF lol). If you get a decent 8 man team you can sear through anything on Normal Mode and Hard Mode with them.

If your failing where others don't, then prehaps you can't micromanage as well? Get better.

EDIT: Also ask for advice on Guild/Alliance chat for the Dungeon your about to enter, chances are someone has already done it and will be able to warn you of any bosses that require you to take extra caution.