Curse

Pandora's box · Jan 20, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Lol, the only thing I expect from Normal Mode is that if a player enters a dungeon without the proper build to slay the endlevel monster, the dungeon itself should give a clear and proper sign right at the start that this will be impossible - by beating the build right at the start!
In reverse I expect that when I can do a dungeon smoothly I also will be able to slay the endlevel monster without much problems because I have the right build for this dungeon.
And since so many dungeons can be done easily up to the endlevel, there is an imbalance because its quite normal that players expect a doable final with their current build. At least in Normal Mode. People who like a challenge play Hard Mode...

tekDragon · Jan 20, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

You use different wording, but your meaning is essentially the same. You're asking for the boss to behave like the rest of the dungeon.

That's somewhat unreasonable given that the boss fights are special encounters with critters who have bumped up HP, faster casting, extra damage, and special unique skills. I think that given the context your expectations are unreasonable, and absolutely unlikely to be fulfilled. The developers will not make normal mode easier. It's just not happening. In fact the only change they've made to NM dungeons that I recall was to make one of the end bosses harder (in Catacombs of Kathandrax).

Clearly there's some reason why you believe firmly that you should have a smoother ride and you're not about to change your mind. So why dont we do something more productive and work on your builds?

Pandora's box · Jan 20, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Because I'm a roleplayer. I choose my profession carefully and I want to play it that way. And just like in any other roleplaying game I expect the game evironement to provide the solutions necessary to continue. So no going back to town, change builds including capturing new skills, whatever. The game should act like the DM: giving signs at the proper time. And workarounds if necessary. Somehow I have the feeling that those who object that are the ones who play HM. But this is about NM, it would never affect their gameplay...

tekDragon · Jan 20, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

LOL... well buddy, at this point you're beyond help, but I can tell you this much:

Normal Mode isnt about to get any easier and the dungeon bosses arent about to be nerfed to fit your particular RP vision.

You're also apparently completely unwilling to discuss your actual build. Which is a shame because people here could probably help you, even within the constraints you set yourself with your vision of how your character should be.

Oh well.

I'm sorry that GW isnt the game that your vision wants it to be. I guess at this point you have to figure out what that means to you (no sarcasm intended)

Destro Maniak · Jan 20, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

well actually ı dont think that the dungeons should be easier

BUT I THINK HOTS SHOULDNT BE MUST

It really is a hard dungeon boss. People who dont want the challenge should be able to proceed forward. Me too wasnt able to kill the boss. Tried touchers, and such but it wasnt any good. So I paid 10k to a runner. 10k isnt a big money. If you cant do a certain mission just hire a runner.

tekDragon · Jan 20, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

I can see why people have a problem with HoS but I firmly believe it should stay the same.

Here's why:

Frist, it's supposed to be harder than the rest of the GWEN campaign. Lets face it, HoS marks the beginning of your trek through the final three missions of the "elite" GW campaign. Even in NM you should be expected to kick it up a notch.

Second, for many people it's the first through Dungeon boss they face in GWEN. It serves as a really helpful and somewhat accurate preview of the kind of encounter you will face in other dungeons.

Third, it is fully doable in NM with henchies by all classes. It just takes a little planning and willingness to alter your basic strategy. The first time I went I got my ass handed to me. I played as a ranger and his AoE skills destroyed me. I did 2 mins of research, re-arranged my build to include poison and bleeding, paid attention to the burning areas... piece of cake. Also managed easily after that with an Ele and a Warrior. The toucher thing is such a gimmick that I wont go near it.

I really feel for Pandora's Box when he/she says "And just like in any other roleplaying game I expect the game evironement to provide the solutions necessary to continue. So no going back to town, change builds including capturing new skills, whatever."

unfortunately... GW is unlike pretty much every other RP games in that it is specifically about encountering difficulties, going back to town, retooling, capturing new skills and then succeeding. That's what sets it apart and in many ways why many people love it. There is no other RP system like it, so applying your traditional RP thinking to this game will not work.

tmakinen · Jan 20, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

I still think that the OP has a valid point, if the disparity between the overall dungeon vs. the end boss is too large. I am not a stranger to running H+H in challenging places and the standard triplet of anti-physical necro, anti-caster ranger and support para + henches has served me well in many a tight spot, latest runs this weekend were Oola's Lab HM (no casualties except myself at the end boss once, stupid instakill skill

), Arachni's Haunt HM (no casualties, coundn't see a difference to NM) and once again Selvetarm NM (some casualties, oh boy do the lawn ornaments aggro!) and in my opinion all those dungeons have an adequate balance between different monsters. However, as I mentioned earlier, the first time when me and H+H met Cyndr without wiki'ing it beforehands it made me take notice because my completely reasonable generalist build just wasn't going to cut it. It wasn't a question of poor build or poor execution, just a stalemate, so I restarted, made a custom build and rolled it without any difficulties. I don't think that it should be necessary to reroll in NM due to a decent generalist build not getting the job done no matter what.

It's not about making NM easier, it's about making it more even, and in my opinion there are some rough edges to level design in certain dungeons. It doesn't bother me personally since I'm not a casual player but I can relate to those who are. Snide comments about QQing and failing at GW are not terribly constructive, now are they?

Longasc · Jan 20, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

What you call rough edges is part of the gamedesign.

Moddok: Remove the runners, I do not curry snares in PvE usually
Ele Bosses: Remove double damage, 10 enery is too much for protection, I have only healing skills on my bar. Broad Head Arrow is a waste usually, so do not force me to bring it.
How about Shards of Orr, remove blindness plz, because it is annoying and I have to adjust the build according to it?
Make Cyndr easier, because it is clearly harder than the rest of the whole dungeon.

WTF, seriously.

THIS leads downhill, and does not make gameplay better or more viable. I also do not see what is wrong with failing a dungeon and adapting to get through it. Is this not part of the design of GW and that particular dungeon?

iridescentfyre · Jan 20, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

Because I'm a roleplayer. I choose my profession carefully and I want to play it that way. And just like in any other roleplaying game I expect the game evironement to provide the solutions necessary to continue. So no going back to town, change builds including capturing new skills, whatever. The game should act like the DM: giving signs at the proper time. And workarounds if necessary. Somehow I have the feeling that those who object that are the ones who play HM. But this is about NM, it would never affect their gameplay...

The game is what it is. If you feel the urge to have it changed to suit your "playstyle," maybe you would be better served by a different game. Eye of the North was designed for upper-level players who were bored of using the exact same tactics and builds for the past two and a half years who wanted something new, unique, and dynamic. We can debate forever if they succeeded, but at the very least we can agree that if Anet had made dungeons easy and predictable, they would suck.

I recommend researching dungeons you are not familiar with, so you can set up properly for them.

{IceFire} · Jan 20, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

I have 2man +heroes every dungeon in both HM and NM, and in every case found the actual dungeon to be harder than the boss.

tmakinen · Jan 21, 2008, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Moddok: Remove the runners, I do not curry snares in PvE usually
Ele Bosses: Remove double damage, 10 enery is too much for protection, I have only healing skills on my bar. Broad Head Arrow is a waste usually, so do not force me to bring it.
How about Shards of Orr, remove blindness plz, because it is annoying and I have to adjust the build according to it?
Make Cyndr easier, because it is clearly harder than the rest of the whole dungeon.

Now you're being plainly disingenuous.

You don't have to tackle the Moddock runners to get through the mission, it's only needed when you're going for the titles and by then you should already know what to bring.

Protecting is an essential part of the game and I do carry BHA in my default build, it has much more uses than just ele boss shutdown. In many cases it's even better not to BHA the boss and instead feed it some minions with a side order of Pain Inverter.

I have nothing against Shards of Orr, the first time I went through to Gadd's encampment I had a very suboptimal build but I took notice and brought a more suitable one when going for the end boss. And it is an example of a dungeon where the difficulty of the end boss is on par with the rest of the dungeon, so there.

I'm not demanding that Cyndr should be made easier per se, just beatable with a reasonable generalist H+H build if played properly. I find it entirely unsatisfactory that some challenges force a gimmick build on you (say, bear club or glacial griffon, not that I couldn't do them, I just don't like the idea).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

I also do not see what is wrong with failing a dungeon and adapting to get through it. Is this not part of the design of GW and that particular dungeon?

As a rule of thumb, me and my H+H team never fails PvE even in HM and I've done pretty much all of it already. When the only such occurrence(1) that I can recall is a NM mission, I'd say that it is anomalous indeed. And as said, I don't find the idea of forced reroll too satisfying.

(1) Alpha testing doesn't count for obvious reasons

JoeKnowMo · Jan 21, 2008, 06:10 AM // 06:10

The point is that Cyndr is a piece of cake with a Bloodspike or touch ranger build but is nigh impossible with a balanced build.

I always knew that bloodspike was leet. :P

tmakinen · Jan 21, 2008, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Well, I think that the actual point of Cyndr is that it's laughably easy when you have real people running kegs and staying out of each other's immediate vicinity. With just 2 real players you can avoid collateral damage and keep the carapace down almost all the time. On your own, you're either out of luck or must take a specific build, and I don't like that. Wasn't this game supposed to be about skills as in execution and tactics and not as in Build Wars?

I would also like to point out that my balanced H+H team didn't have any difficulties in beating HoS and Magmus both in NM and HM. Sounds like a discrepancy to me.

blue.rellik · Jan 21, 2008, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Now you're being plainly disingenuous.

You don't have to tackle the Moddock runners to get through the mission, it's only needed when you're going for the titles and by then you should already know what to bring.

Protecting is an essential part of the game and I do carry BHA in my default build, it has much more uses than just ele boss shutdown. In many cases it's even better not to BHA the boss and instead feed it some minions with a side order of Pain Inverter.

I have nothing against Shards of Orr, the first time I went through to Gadd's encampment I had a very suboptimal build but I took notice and brought a more suitable one when going for the end boss. And it is an example of a dungeon where the difficulty of the end boss is on par with the rest of the dungeon, so there.

I'm not demanding that Cyndr should be made easier per se, just beatable with a reasonable generalist H+H build if played properly. I find it entirely unsatisfactory that some challenges force a gimmick build on you (say, bear club or glacial griffon, not that I couldn't do them, I just don't like the idea).

He was being sarcastic

tmakinen · Jan 21, 2008, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

He was being sarcastic

He was being sarcastic by setting up a straw man argument. That's disingenuous as I said. We were talking about the difficulty of beating Cyndr with a balanced H+H team. A balanced H+H team can complete Moddock Crevice (mission). A balanced H+H team can beat double damage ele bosses. A balanced H+H team can beat Shards of Orr. What's the point of trying to discuss things when one side considers non sequiturs a valid device of argumentation?

arsie · Jan 21, 2008, 08:56 AM // 08:56

GW:EN is an expansion. It is meant to be played by people who have completed at least one of the campaigns. I believe that the last few missions of the three campaigns are all at a difficulty level similar to the majority of GW:EN dungeons.

I believe that it is also hoped that anyone who have completed a campaign would know enough about the game, its mechanics and what skills are available, in order to start thinking and solving problems. Of course, tied to the apron strings of wikis and forums, some players have not got the habit of that.

It is a simple matter of problem solving. Hmm, those undead in Shards of Orr are kicking my butt, what can I do? How do I mitigate the damage of Shock+Aftershock? How do I kill them when they have multiple monks? Of course, the solutions are in these very forums within hours/days. Someone else has solved the problem for you.

There are 10 professions, 25 heroes, kazillion million skills, for a reason. Changing and adaptation is part and parcel of this game world in which you role-play in.

But no, you are a role-player. And you're either role-playing a person who will never encounter a problem or an unadaptable person that is doomed to extinction.

The Little Viking · Jan 21, 2008, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Ive gone from beginnning to end in Gwen in both NM and HM. Both have their own challanges!!! (first time on necro, then on monk, currently working on ritualist). Did it all with either H/H or with 1 guildie and the team of heros. And the first thing I learned (day 1 to be exact) is I MUST be willing to play with my skills. Fortunatly for me before gwen, I took the time to get ALL elete skills from all 3 campaigns. But puting that aside, i have learned that if you bother to pay attention in the beginning of any dungeon, (not just charge through and move on) you will know by level 2 if you are set good for the end or not. Pay attention to what the mosters are and what they are doing/casting. are you going up against a lot of cold damage? yes? then it is only logical that the end boss is gonna be some sort of elemental with massive life line and energy and and some form of aoe. Mostly melle on level 1 should lead you to belive that the end boss is gonna be some sort of creature that is a hard hitter and massive armor. Prepare for this before going on to level 2, even if it does mean leaving and going back in after playing with the skills some. So you have to go cap a skill....or do you? Most eletes are good in a fashion (i know some would disagree with me on this but thats ok too), But just because you dont have a perticular elete, does not mean that you can not make it thru. Just because Joe says you MUST have SS, does not mean it is the only elete worth taking, or mary says you MUST have ineptitude. do not be fooled. (I will admit that those are 2 of my favorite eletes) After all, what works best for 1 may not work best for another. But please be willing to mess with the skills bar. If your ele, be flexable. Destroyers take half damage from fire, try air. Earth works pritty good agains those pesky little oozes. In valoxx go with a ranger with frozen soil and necros with wells. Just learn from your mistakes, and not try to change the game because your not willing to pay attention to your surroundings. If you want to fully enjoy the game, then you must be willing to adapt. Just because there is a monk in the team, does not mean that hes a definate healer. he could be a smiter. Hes learned to adapt. Just because someone is ele, does not mean hes using fire...same goes for necro...not all are MM. sometimes they even set up with some soul reaping skills belive it or not. They have adapted, and you should to.

strcpy · Jan 21, 2008, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Well, I think that the actual point of Cyndr is that it's laughably easy when you have real people running kegs and staying out of each other's immediate vicinity. With just 2 real players you can avoid collateral damage and keep the carapace down almost all the time. On your own, you're either out of luck or must take a specific build, and I don't like that. Wasn't this game supposed to be about skills as in execution and tactics and not as in Build Wars?

The problem with Cyndr also came down to that it had a one shot kill for any squishy. If you were with a H/H group this meant that you had half your party wiped in *one* shot and then it went down hill from there. If you didn't go read the forums or Wiki then you don't know life steal teams totally destroy him (and they make *any* team easy). It was *really* tough to beat Cyndr with a balanced H/H team, especially if you were the caster. My dervish and warrior breezed through him, my Necro and ele had to take the life steal groups.

Other than that one case, I can't agree with the OP - the dungeons are *supposed* to be end game stuff and *should* take builds like that. Were Cyndr not part of the required chest chain then I would agree - leave him as is, however it is a higher roadblock than GoM or THK ever were for a casual squishy player - it also needs you to have sufficient unlocks on Necro skills for non-necro classes (or just be dang good with your team - better than the vast majority). It hasn't promoted grouping, because again most groups don't seem to handle them even as good as the hench do so you end up with a 2-shot party wipe - however even a somewhat workable human party *should* and *does* wipe the floor with him.

Ah well, this has been complained about for quite some time and isn't going to be "fixed" - most people stuck there are pointed towards the wiki's anyway and once there the mission is fairly easy (much easier than GoM even with a good H/H team build).

tekDragon · Jan 21, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

The point is that Cyndr is a piece of cake with a Bloodspike or touch ranger build but is nigh impossible with a balanced build.

That is unequivocally false, I've beaten him 3 times with HnH and I've never used a boodspike team. Never... it is quite possible to beat him with a balanced HnH team. Many other people have as well.

Just because your favourite balanced setup couldnt do it, doesnt mean it cant be done. It also doesnt mean that it's an issue that should be addressed. I'll grant that it'll be tougher for casual players, but it's very doable.

Quaker · Jan 21, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Without reading the entire thread, the only thing I can add is that I've never used a "special" build to complete any dungeon in Normal Mode, with the possible exception of Duncan the Black.

When it came to Cyndr - I was using my usual H&H mini-B/P group. The main secret to Cyndr is to flag your H&Hs around Cyndr so they are more spread out. It does take some knowledge and practice with flagging, but that's not what I would call a "special" build.

So, in answer to the original question - no Normal Mode shouldn't be easier, it's easy enough already.