Curse

Betrayer of Wind · Mar 20, 2009, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Yeah experienced full guild teams with cryway/perma can do it on 20ish minutes,however its hard to find 12 good players for urgoz unless you got a really big guild/alliance,also setting up the team do take quite a bit of time until you can gather all those people.
We rarely do urgoz with that many heroes tho,we usually got more people online lol.
Anyway,imo its much more fun to do it balanced,taking the character you want and not sticking with the very same build all the time.

Jimmy Dean · Mar 20, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betrayer of Wind

Just finished this run about 10m ago:

yep 9 heroes lol

Well i guess that proves to everyone that urgoz is entirely doable on HM with heroes and also a very decent time for a balanced group.

As for 8 party size,i'd just do smaller pulls(1-2 groups instead of 3-5)
would take much longer tho

Guide for heroway should be comming soon(bleh so lazy to take screen during the run lol)

That's awesome dude! Great job! Would you be able to post the builds? I'm very interested in which 8 of those 12 you would recommend trying an 8 party HM. I know posting the builds can be time-consuming, maybe just a couple more screenshots (even in town) from the other players with their hero teams, if possible. Way to go!

JD

Ryane · Mar 21, 2009, 05:36 AM // 05:36

A necro not running 1 hp bip?? wtf...

Id like to see a cryer do 2190 damage in 2 seconds >< and yeh I did add it.

Snograt · Mar 21, 2009, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Very nice - is it fitting with our topic of "Urgoz with 2 humans and 6 heroes" though? My best guess for your set-up would be four humans and eight heroes.

Betrayer of Wind · Mar 21, 2009, 07:38 AM // 07:38

For HM with 8 party size,i'd take an imbagon,2 rits,a tank,a protter,a necro,Vor mes and spirit ranger,maybe a ES 2ndary tank as well for shutdown instead of the mesmer.

Problem with less party size is the high risk of being overwelmed,and since with 100 blades the more mobs u got the better it is,it defently scales up the time if you dont make huge pulls.

on HM i hardly believe u'd be able to kill the warden or dredge groups using ur 8 party setup cuz they have very strong protters and rit healers.

With 12 party size you dont need an imbagon neither SY! because the amount of prots and party heals coupled with proper tanking takes care of getting pressured out.
However,with 8 party size an imbagon'd be a nice addition for a consistent and reliable run.

All the proffessions listed can be run by heroes,except:imbagon,earthshaker and hundred blades tank,all the others can be easily run by heroes with little microing on prots,spirits and such.

Jimmy Dean · Mar 21, 2009, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryane

A necro not running 1 hp bip?? wtf...

Id like to see a cryer do 2190 damage in 2 seconds >< and yeh I did add it.

I don't think I've ever tried 1 hp bip on a hero before. Might be worth a trial. Certainly not going to use it on one of the two real players though.

That's some awesome damage indeed. Strictly speaking though, one player isn't doing the damage. With only 6 Thorn wolves at that spot (and no minions), the likely trigger for MoP is Barrage (or a multiple melee attack like Whirlwind attack), so it's taking two players to get that damage, plus whatever damage Barrage (and maybe plus Splinter) does, all divided by two for real damage output per player. Thanks for the post - I'm going to add MoP to my build for the minions, and maybe even Battle Standard of Courage on the Warrior Cryer, who doesn't really need Sniper, despite it's massive spike potential. The Warrior/Necro will keep Sniper, mainly for spiking Urgoz.

So many ways to kill, so little time.

JD

toocooltang · Mar 21, 2009, 04:20 PM // 16:20

You are correct the trigger is 100blades. To buff the dmg on the tank we use ebsoh, and oop, and splinter. The damage between the two is alot and the bigger the mob the better the dmg. Anyways here is the best tank screen shot I got

edited to resize

Snograt · Mar 21, 2009, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Wut, no [[whirlwind attack]?

(Edit)Hoo boy - the old eyesight's failing me again

mrmango · Mar 21, 2009, 11:49 PM // 23:49

He has Whirlwind, see skill 1. =p

Jimmy Dean · Mar 22, 2009, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Hey you guys are awesome, no doubt! Thanks for the extra screenies. Some serious pwnage going on!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryane

Id like to see a cryer do 2190 damage in 2 seconds >< and yeh I did add it.

Just for fun I took Ryane's challenge and here's a look:

This is why the perma/cryer's do it in ~22 mins, but don't get me wrong, I'm still trying to break 2 h:30 mins with my little self-imposed torture challenge.

My screenshots show:
Forty adjacent (or nearby) foes, one in the middle hexed and 3 Cries of Pain. 3 X 100 x 40 = 12,000 damage in ~2 seconds.

The screenies can't or won't show it all to add it up, but you can clearly make out at least 8,400 of it counting some doubling of damage images at screen edges. Woot!

Sure wish I could put COP on heroes!

Thanks guys for the extra team build info, lots of good ideas for me to toss around.

JD

Jimmy Dean · Mar 22, 2009, 05:22 AM // 05:22

LOL, "By Ural's Hammer" works with COP. Don't know why I didn't try it before (D'oh!).

That's 5000 damage per COP on this map. Whoa!

JD

Athrun Feya · Mar 22, 2009, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Wow, everyone else realised the effectiveness of CoP about 6 months ago.

Actually, cryway started in The Deep and DoA approximately the same time (about a year ago), but no one seemed to pay much attention until ursan was nerfed.

I would argue that any Normal Mode PvE can be finished, with pretty much any build, with consumables.

Jimmy Dean · Mar 22, 2009, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

wow, everyone else realised the effectiveness of CoP about 6 months ago.

LOL, what took YOU so long? I've been using COP since well before the nerf to Ursan on Aug 7, 2008. Apparently you missed this part of my original post:

"The following (COP) build is one I have used extensively to do DOA, Vanquishing, and HM missions"

The recent posts in this thread are just documenting and comparing damage output potential for various builds. Despite my extensive, long use of COP I had not specifically looked for an opportunity to see just how high its damage output could be. I try to post things that may be of interest to others.

JD

Betrayer of Wind · Mar 22, 2009, 08:17 PM // 20:17

MoP+whirlwind+100blades still wins on the raptors,it'd obliterate the entire map if u could ball all of them up,CoP scales linearly,while 100blades exponentially.

Lets take your example of 40 raptors,only 100blades dmg at lets say 20dmg each.Whirlwind atk will make 40 atks,triggering 100blades 40 times at 20dmg each,for each raptor.Each raptor'd take 800dmg,but since there are 40,thats a total of 32000 dmg.

Now only MoP damage at 38dmg(@14curses).40x38=1520dmg each raptor,since u can only hit adjacent foes,it'll hit 39 raptors.1520x39=59280 total dmg assuming they'd have enough health for that.

CoP wins on range,but with proper tanking they are all balled up.Also just 1 MoP is necessary instead of constantly CoPing.

Again,make use of warrior skills,if u wanna use CoP use a caster(u're using a BR necro basically just for urself,taking an important slot on ur 8 party size).
Most of your dmg is single target(Sniper,Discord),excluding of course CoP.I believe u're doing very small pulls thus the long run time.Try more AoE dmg,even for small groups and you should get a better time.if you're still using the SF ele,try switching it for a RoJ support monk,since its dmg is pretty powerful and doesnt scatter.

btw did u tried HM yet?

Jimmy Dean · Mar 24, 2009, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betrayer of Wind

MoP+whirlwind+100blades still wins on the raptors,it'd obliterate the entire map if u could ball all of them up,CoP scales linearly,while 100blades exponentially.

Lets take your example of 40 raptors,only 100blades dmg at lets say 20dmg each.Whirlwind atk will make 40 atks,triggering 100blades 40 times at 20dmg each,for each raptor.Each raptor'd take 800dmg,but since there are 40,thats a total of 32000 dmg.

Hey, thanks again BoW for the concise analysis and comparison. A couple of points I'd like to make after doing some experimentation. If it were just any forty other foes (I'll explain in next paragraph), the combined damage of Hundred Blades + Whirlwind would actually be higher than that, as you didn't add in the regular sword damage per successful hit OR the +20 damage that Whirlwind does per successful hit. For illustration purposes, let's say that all the Whirlwind attacks all hit, and that normal sword damage is 20. So, each foe is going to take the 800 damage you described PLUS 40 more damage from Sword attack + Whirlwind. That's 840 damage per foe X 40 = 33,600 total. The other point about this example is that ALL the damage sources in this part of the analysis (Normal sword, Whirlwind bonus, and Hundred Blades) are not armor ignoring and the 20 we used for each turns into about 12 for HM Raptors. So the total potential damage is 20,160. Hundred Blades is 12 X 40 X 40 = 19,200, and Normal sword + Whirlwind is (12+12) x 40= 960. Still not bad, except for some minor problems specific to the raptors

.

For these particular foes (raptors), Hundred Blades + Whirlwind is a difficult proposition, especially in hard mode where foes attack 33%-50% faster. Raptors use Disrupting Stab, which interrupts all actions if it hits. Hundred Blades triggers if an attack misses or is blocked, but not if it is interrupted in which case there was no attack. So getting off even a regular sword swing is rare, and Whirlwind attack is equally rare. Using Aegis or a blocking stance on the Warrior isn't any help, as the Raptors have Wild Strike, which ends any stance and is unblockable. MoP falls in line with triggerring rarely since it requires actual physical damage to occur.

For experimentation, the Assassin gathered up the raptors and the Warrior recalled in, then the Assassin just died letting the Warrior take aggro. I used a bunch of enchants and Symbiosis to stay alive long enough to make multiple attack attempts (Normal sword and Whirlwind) with Hundred Blades active. In about a dozen tries (2 NM and 10 HM), I was able to get only one successful Whirlwind attack completed and it was in NM. It killed 30 foes instantly. I was never able to get a successful Whirlwind attack in HM. This of course doesn't mean that it isn't an awesome damage dealing build, just that the raptors are the wrong foes to be using it on. The one successful hit I got in NM was enough to demonstrate it's power quite clearly (as is your use of it in Urgoz).

Normal mode, Not hitting anything (constant interruption)

Successful Whirlwind Attack

Hard mode, got an occasional Normal sword attack in, but never got a Whirlwind

Quote:

I believe u're doing very small pulls thus the long run time.Try more AoE dmg,even for small groups and you should get a better time.if you're still using the SF ele,try switching it for a RoJ support monk,since its dmg is pretty powerful and doesnt scatter.

btw did u tried HM yet?

You're right I am making small pulls, although they are getting bigger. I haven't tried HM yet, I'm still tweaking the build. I got to the final room before Urgoz (Blood Drinkers and Thorn Wolves) last time in under 90 minutes with my current build, but then got careless and made too big a pull and lost all but the lead Warrior. Sadly, she was out of Rez scrolls. I normally keep 5 on each player but wasn't watching the supply closely enough

. I'm thinking of swapping out the Mesmer for a Splinter/Barrage Ranger.

Appreciate your interest in the thread. I'll update as I find my optimal build.

JD

Snograt · Mar 24, 2009, 05:17 PM // 17:17

I'm loving this thread - reasoned, in-depth analysis of different builds in a variety of areas. Also, and i don't care what you think, I just love clouds of ouch-numbers

Snow Bunny · Mar 24, 2009, 05:28 PM // 17:28

A. I applaud this, as despite you having pretty mediocre bars, it's pretty cool that you did it.

B. Try this...

[whirlwind attack]+[mark of pain]+[splinter weapon]+[hundred blades]...

I guarantee it's an amazing sight to see.

Carboplatin · Mar 24, 2009, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

A. I applaud this, as despite you having pretty mediocre bars, it's pretty cool that you did it.

B. Try this...

[whirlwind attack]+[mark of pain]+[splinter weapon]+[hundred blades]...

I guarantee it's an amazing sight to see.

Don't forget [Ebon Battle Standard of Honor]
Thats armor ignoring damage.

lots of pretty numbers.

Snograt · Mar 25, 2009, 10:19 AM // 10:19

I'm starting to delete "+1" non-contributory posts (and responses).

Keep to the subject in hand, please guys.

Jimmy Dean · Mar 25, 2009, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

Wow, everyone else realised the effectiveness of CoP about 6 months ago.

Actually, cryway started in The Deep and DoA approximately the same time (about a year ago), but no one seemed to pay much attention until ursan was nerfed.

My guildies and I were using what we called a "Six Pack o' Pain" (Arcane Echo, Echo, COP x 2) to farm Foundry in DOA with 5 man teams nearly 2 years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

I would argue that any Normal Mode PvE can be finished, with pretty much any build, with consumables.

Know anyone else who has beaten Urgoz with 8 (using 6 heroes)? Ever tried it yourself with 8 (using 6 heroes) any build, with or without cons? Know anyone who has beaten Urgoz BY THEMSELVES?? I do.

How about posting something useful or GTFO.

JD