Curse

Snograt · Mar 17, 2009, 09:00 PM // 21:00

See now - you're saying "Warrior Cryer sucks" - yet the guy just beat Urgoz with it. In the SS, he just did a total of 600 damage with it - that's not too sucky.

Yes, a Mesmer can Cry better - but he's not playing a Mesmer.

I want to beat Urgoz's Warren with my warrior, but I'm struggling - what to do? Hmm, PvE meta is Cryway - I'll give that a shot.

Win - post thread - ???? - profit.

Sierraa · Mar 17, 2009, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkooo

Firstly, warrior cryer sucks.
Low energy pools, no fast cast. A complete waste.
Make a mesmer if u want to cry.

Since when was FC absolutely needed? I realize mesmers are amazing characters, but if no FC = complete waste, why do people use cry eles in DoA?

on topic: I'd kinda like to see what you could do with actual monks/maybe another real person. :] Seems pretty cool that you took the builds you did and beat Urgoz.

Congratulations. :]

Shadow Own · Mar 17, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

perhaps you could speed up when using curses instead of blood magic.
also, your W/N build is kinda crappy, not that grenths balance is bad, i just think a sword or axe does better with grenths balance, instead of life siphon and necrosis.
still, very impressive that you cut the party size to 8 and also used heroes.

Jimmy Dean · Mar 17, 2009, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkooo

Firstly, warrior cryer sucks.
Low energy pools, no fast cast. A complete waste.
Make a mesmer if u want to cry.

Gee, some people just can't think outside the box. In the screenshot, skills 1-4 have been cast, expending 30 energy and I still have 33 energy left with a blood ritter in wait. Seems like a pretty nice energy pool to me. Look at the health bars of the foes compared to the party and ask them if they like "Crying" Hehe.

Of course I have a Mesmer and enjoy that role immensely too. The Warriors both needed to beat Urgoz and both have high ranks in PVE skills, so it was an easy choice. Again, I cannot overstate the value of "Save Yourselves" here, which saved the party countless times. Remember, "SY" is a Warrior skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Own

perhaps you could speed up when using curses instead of blood magic.
also, your W/N build is kinda crappy, not that grenths balance is bad, i just think a sword or axe does better with grenths balance, instead of life siphon and necrosis.
still, very impressive that you cut the party size to 8 and also used heroes.

Yeah, I tried a run or two with Curses, but wasn't happy with the results. Too many of the Curses skills are high energy, and don't do life steal. You need 12 Blood to get +3/-3 with Life Siphon, which is quite handy given all the Health degen and life steal (Blood Drinkers) going in. Trouble is you HAVE to have a real person Necro profession for Necrotic, and with 13 Strength and 12 Blood it doesn't leave room for enough points in axe or sword. I admit it's an unusual build but with Sniper, Grenth's, Life Siphon, Necrosis and Sprint, Warrior 1 did the bulk of the damage (and the killing blow) to Urgoz (see screenshot in Original Post), and could have in fact done that without additional help besides EOE. Necrosis is a great skill - it does 90 armor-ignoring damage (to foes w/hex or condition), and at 5 energy with only a 2 second recharge it's pretty spammable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snograt

See now - you're saying "Warrior Cryer sucks" - yet the guy just beat Urgoz with it. In the SS, he just did a total of 600 damage with it - that's not too sucky.

Thanks for your continued level head and support! Sheesh!

JD

TheOrangeFalcon · Mar 18, 2009, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Wow. That's awesome man. Kinda wants me to try something like that, but without cry, because that's just me.

Looking for suggestions?-
Personal issue-caster wars bug me, so I'd say change the W/N to hammer, at least [grenth's balance] for [earth shaker] because AoE KD is awesome.
On at least one of the healers, I'd throw on some prots like [Prot spirit] and [Shield of Absorption] and [Aegis] on both of em.
May or may not be effective, but maybe consider swapping [Searing Flames] for [Savannah Heat]. SF works better in groups, so maybe a full blown nuker might be better than one, although the scatter might be problematic for you, I don't know.

nikkooo · Mar 18, 2009, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Dean

Gee, some people just can't think outside the box. In the screenshot, skills 1-4 have been cast, expending 30 energy and I still have 33 energy left with a blood ritter in wait. Seems like a pretty nice energy pool to me. Look at the health bars of the foes compared to the party and ask them if they like "Crying" Hehe.

Of course I have a Mesmer and enjoy that role immensely too. The Warriors both needed to beat Urgoz and both have high ranks in PVE skills, so it was an easy choice. Again, I cannot overstate the value of "Save Yourselves" here, which saved the party countless times. Remember, "SY" is a Warrior skill.

Yeah, I tried a run or two with Curses, but wasn't happy with the results. Too many of the Curses skills are high energy, and don't do life steal. You need 12 Blood to get +3/-3 with Life Siphon, which is quite handy given all the Health degen and life steal (Blood Drinkers) going in. Trouble is you HAVE to have a real person Necro profession for Necrotic, and with 13 Strength and 12 Blood it doesn't leave room for enough points in axe or sword. I admit it's an unusual build but with Sniper, Grenth's, Life Siphon, Necrosis and Sprint, Warrior 1 did the bulk of the damage (and the killing blow) to Urgoz (see screenshot in Original Post), and could have in fact done that without additional help besides EOE. Necrosis is a great skill - it does 90 armor-ignoring damage (to foes w/hex or condition), and at 5 energy with only a 2 second recharge it's pretty spammable.

Thanks for your continued level head and support! Sheesh!

JD

What I was trying to say is, you used a melee char to do a caster job.
By doing so, you have wasted 1 elite and 2-3 normal skills slot.
To be honest, with con sets used warriors can tank easily in any spot with an average skill bar.
Not trying to troll or anything, so grats on beating urgoz anyways

Missmelady · Mar 18, 2009, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkooo

What I was trying to say is, you used a melee char to do a caster job.
By doing so, you have wasted 1 elite and 2-3 normal skills slot.
To be honest, with con sets used warriors can tank easily in any spot with an average skill bar.
Not trying to troll or anything, so grats on beating urgoz anyways

Nikkooo what he is stating is that had he become the tank there is no way for cop to fit into the build.... Heroes can't run it so he decided to take the dmg for his build. Now shut it and learn to play the game.

tasha · Mar 18, 2009, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Thanks for posting this Jimmy. Congrats on the achievement!

After seeing this thread, a guildie and I have decided to try repeating your sucess since we realised that we haven't done Urgoz in ages. Our primaries are Ranger and Rit - its going to be an interesting evening

Edit: Update - So it turned out he'd never done it and I'd done it once many many moons ago when people were trapping it. Still I'd like to say we did fairly well - the first attempt didn't get very far (minions messed up aggro), second we made it to room 6 before my brain switched off and I carried the heroes with me into 2 groups of Thorn Wolves - well done me. Time for that attempt was just over an hour, used one set of consumables, a lot of the time was spent recovering from 3 near party wipes. It was quite good fun, probably will try it again sometime.

nikkooo · Mar 18, 2009, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missmelady

Nikkooo what he is stating is that had he become the tank there is no way for cop to fit into the build.... Heroes can't run it so he decided to take the dmg for his build. Now shut it and learn to play the game.

As I said, he can tank and deal damage no less than CoP, using cop is a waste on warrior.
And dont tell me to shut it and learn the game, kthxbai.

Jimmy Dean · Mar 18, 2009, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by tasha_darke

Thanks for posting this Jimmy. Congrats on the achievement!

After seeing this thread, a guildie and I have decided to try repeating your sucess since we realised that we haven't done Urgoz in ages. Our primaries are Ranger and Rit - its going to be an interesting evening

Hey that would be great! Be sure to review the wiki guide (http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Urgoz%27s_Warren) so there aren't any nasty surprises.

Some general tips:
-Pack as much damage dealing as possible on your real players. I tried to maximize my damage output, and you see what I thought would do that. If you're going to have one Cryer and one Blood Necro type, I'd use the Rit as the Cryer (Rt/Me) and the Ranger as the Necro (R/N) for energy considerations. But really with Blood Rit, energy is not much of a problem.

-Be careful pulling. As you enter new areas, you will see that if the puller rushes right in, he can often get the first group without any others. This is good. Get one group, drag it back out of range of the others, and finish it off. Target the monks first (Dredge Gardener, Song Warden, Uprooted Malice), then the Rits (Dredge Seer, Spirit Warden). Occasionally you'll get a group with two monks (Gardeners), just stay on the SAME one till he's down. Strip his enchants every time he applies one. If at any time you aggro more than one group you must run away. There's almost always room to run to, so make a hasty, coordinated retreat. Let whoever get stuck or crippled die, just run or you'll be done. Watch out for popups - the puller needs to sweep carefully and return to the party at the first sign of a popup group.

-Thorn Wolves first appear at the fire bridge at the 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 way across points. Have the puller go to almost those spots, turn around then back up slowly to trigger them. Put a run skill on if equipped and the plan is to trigger with the run skill active, already facing the right way to the rest of the party. After triggering the 1/2 way point Wolves and killing them, move the whole party to the 1/2 way point, then trigger the 3/4 way Wolves with the puller.

-After the fire bridge comes many many Thorn Wolves. This is a great time to use at least an Armor of Salvation, and even a Grail of Might. Use great care in pulling Wolves back to the party right after the fire bridge, as two groups can wipe you if you don't have many minions up, and running away back onto the fire bridge is not really a viable option. Speaking of minions, whoever is controlling your MM can help him generate more minions with Aura of the Lich than he would cast on his own. (Lich recharges before it expires, so with a little micro you can make more minions).

-In this same room right after the fire bridge, exhaustion takes effect 1/2 through. After the room has been swept clean, move the whole party up to, but SHORT of the point where exhaustion begins. Have the puller go through two vine gates and trigger the Wolves beyond the 2nd gate. For this first set of Wolves BEYOND a vine gate, they should be dragged back all the way to the party, 1/2 way in the preceeding room, where there is no exhaustion. If you don't do this, your whole party will rapidly become completely exhausted and it may result in a wipe (speaking from experience here, hehe).

-For the rest of the vine gate area, study the timing of the gates going up and down. This is a really significant aspect of your success in this area. The gates are down for 10 seconds and up for 15 seconds. So a perfect pull would be: Wait til a gate goes UP, wait 7-8 seconds (gate remaining up for another 7-8 secs), puller runs through the gate, triggers the wolf popups, and makes it back to the waiting party on the SAFE side of the gate right before the gate closes with the wolves on the OTHER side. This gives you 10 full seconds of free damage dealing. Always direct all party and hero damage to the same target.

Pull the Wolves to the Gate, but Lock them out:

-On the bridge to the Warden Room, where you have to kill 3 Guardian serpents in rapid succession, one REAL player has to stay behind. Leaving a hero back won't keep the Warden mega-spawn from happening and is a mission ending event (had that happen, too). The player staying back can flag his heroes to go with the other player and help kill the 3 Guardian Serpents. Use the 'U' map to help. If it gets too hard, one player and 3 heroes can kill the Guardians, it just takes longer.

-When you get to Urgoz, make sure you put EOE where it reaches Urgoz, and I would recommend using just the real players to damage him and create spores. This is where Sniper and Grenth's help a lot, along with Cry and Necrosis or whatever your 'best shots' are. Be careful with your EOE hero, as he'll try to run to you for Blood Rit and is easy fodder for spores. I disabled Blood Rit on him and activated it manually when running back to safety. See the Original Post, Hero Flag 1 for a good spot for EOE.

Good luck and don't give up if at first you don't succeed - it gets easier with each attempt!

JD

Carboplatin · Mar 18, 2009, 10:04 PM // 22:04

So much negativity in guru, its unreal.

Its nice to see people doing things outside the box, reminds me of when this game was new and people were coming up with ways of doing things. Back then it was about completion, not about how fast my team of perma+cryers can complete a place.

This game is not a race. Its for entertainment.
"Are you not entertained? Is that not why you are here?"
Good job!

Jimmy Dean · Mar 19, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkooo

As I said, he can tank and deal damage no less than CoP, using cop is a waste on warrior.

Let's see a screenshot of a Warrior doing 1400 damage in less than 2 seconds using any combination of Warrior skills.

JD

Betrayer of Wind · Mar 19, 2009, 04:25 PM // 16:25

GJ but using CoP on warrior is just a waste,u got much better options like ES or Hundred blades,add in some splinter and its pure pwnage.
Although i havent tried urgoz with 8 party size(just no point on doing that),me and my guild do urgoz HM runs balanced pretty often with up to 9 heroes <1h,and not using cry for dmg.
idk why people dont understand the usefulness of a warrior or other physicals,and just go /me and cry with 25e and >> regen which is pretty bad,at least if u gonna cry,get a caster and be happy

this is our best time with a couple heroes,runs go around 45-55m with 6-8heroes usually

Jimmy Dean · Mar 19, 2009, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betrayer of Wind

GJ but using CoP on warrior is just a waste,u got much better options like ES or Hundred blades,add in some splinter and its pure pwnage.
Although i havent tried urgoz with 8 party size (just no point on doing that), me and my guild do urgoz HM runs balanced pretty often with up to 9 heroes <1h,and not using cry for dmg.
idk why people dont understand the usefulness of a warrior or other physicals,and just go /me and cry with 25e and >> regen which is pretty bad,at least if u gonna cry,get a caster and be happy

this is our best time with a couple heroes,runs go around 45-55m with 6-8heroes usually

Hey that's a great time and looks like an effective build. I do also use Warriors with Warrior skills, don't get me wrong, but in this particular 8 party challenge, the Warriors aren't meant to tank - the minions do that. The Warriors can't sustain the kind of concentrated damage put on them here with only two monks. The Warriors do the pulling, and are BACKUP tanks, surviving mainly through high armor level and "SY" for each other.

As far as damage output, here's some more screenies showing 1600 damage in under 1 second, with 24 energy remaining and a blood ritter available to boot. That's quite a comfortable style of play - i.e., makes me happy

. COP casts in 1/4 sec, so fast casting is not a real factor.

Of course using 9 heroes and 4 healers and splinter is a great approach - my challenge here was to find a way to complete it with a party of 8 and 6 heroes. That was the point of doing it. Thanks for sharing your build ideas - I'm tweaking some things and am going to attempt this HM soon, with 8. That's why some of the skillbars appear differently in some of the screenies for those of you following this thread.

JD

Betrayer of Wind · Mar 20, 2009, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Dean

but in this particular 8 party challenge, the Warriors aren't meant to tank - the minions do that. The Warriors can't sustain the kind of concentrated damage put on them here with only two monks. The Warriors do the pulling, and are BACKUP tanks, surviving mainly through high armor level and "SY" for each other.

Prots like [Shield of absorption] and [Protective Spirit] are enough to keep anyone up there 24/7.

You got 2 monks,yet they are fully healing based which means you dont have Aegis chains or SoA chains.Use Hybrid builds,[WoH]+[signet of rejuvenation]+[patient spirit] is enough healing,put some prots and u're good to go.

You got melee minions for tanking yet you dont have [death nova] for dmg,which is ALOT,i'd drop [infuse condition] for it.

Also you dont have party heals,if you really wanna stick with 12/12 heal/DF monks,then i suggest u bring [divine healing] or [heaven's delight],or a ritualist with [protective was kaolai]+[life]or[recuperation],also,those spirits heals the minions as well.

You have [Resurrection Chant] on the monks and [resurrect] on other casters,try [renew life] on the monks since it gives a huge earshot heal and a faster casting.

Resurrect is among the worst resses ever,use Resurrection Chant instead and also bring Aegis on those casters so u can have a perma aegis chain going on,or switch to /Rt for [Death pact signet]+[Weapon of Warding] or [Weapon of Shadow]

[E-surge] isnt bad,but [Visions of Regret] tends to deal a much higher dmg over time and fills the requirement for ur [cry of pain],also you should look for more dmg spells on ur mesmer aka [mistrust]/[shatter enchantment]/[power spike],all those very powerful,but dont forget [power drain]!

Your W/N bar is basically designed to kill urgoz,cuz on other mobs you're just pulling and using [Save Yourselves!] pretty much.You can easily go with a purely warrior build+[necrotic traversal].Since you got a necro hero for BR,you can use [Hundred Blades]+[Mark of Pain] and still use a [BR] spammer.

Your builds lacks synergy,which is essential for a good team.All your team is composed of stand-alone characters,each of them tied to a solo-role.Working around synergyzing the builds is the way to go.

Jimmy Dean · Mar 20, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betrayer of Wind

Prots like [Shield of absorption] and [Protective Spirit] are enough to keep anyone up there 24/7.

You got 2 monks,yet they are fully healing based which means you dont have Aegis chains or SoA chains.Use Hybrid builds,[WoH]+[signet of rejuvenation]+[patient spirit] is enough healing,put some prots and u're good to go.

You got melee minions for tanking yet you dont have [death nova] for dmg,which is ALOT,i'd drop [infuse condition] for it.

Also you dont have party heals,if you really wanna stick with 12/12 heal/DF monks,then i suggest u bring [divine healing] or [heaven's delight],or a ritualist with [protective was kaolai]+[life]or[recuperation],also,those spirits heals the minions as well.

You have [Resurrection Chant] on the monks and [resurrect] on other casters,try [renew life] on the monks since it gives a huge earshot heal and a faster casting.

Resurrect is among the worst resses ever,use Resurrection Chant instead and also bring Aegis on those casters so u can have a perma aegis chain going on,or switch to /Rt for [Death pact signet]+[Weapon of Warding] or [Weapon of Shadow]

[E-surge] isnt bad,but [Visions of Regret] tends to deal a much higher dmg over time and fills the requirement for ur [cry of pain],also you should look for more dmg spells on ur mesmer aka [mistrust]/[shatter enchantment]/[power spike],all those very powerful,but dont forget [power drain]!

Your W/N bar is basically designed to kill urgoz,cuz on other mobs you're just pulling and using [Save Yourselves!] pretty much.You can easily go with a purely warrior build+[necrotic traversal].Since you got a necro hero for BR,you can use [Hundred Blades]+[Mark of Pain] and still use a [BR] spammer.

Your builds lacks synergy,which is essential for a good team.All your team is composed of stand-alone characters,each of them tied to a solo-role.Working around synergyzing the builds is the way to go.

Hey you really put a lot of thought into this and I appreciate it a lot. Mixing prot and healing on a Necro monk is problematic due to skill point distribution. Maybe I need to try straight monks. I've been keeping one resurrect skill because it's a full range skill, not half range like res chant. Sometimes the mob I'm fighting won't back away from party corpses and the full range res is my only way to reassemble. A touch res that heals is a good idea for the monks. I'd love to get a Rit secondary in somehow, maybe on the Mesmer - Splinter and Weapon of Warding are skills I'd love to have along. I'll look closely at your other suggestions and try them out, at first glance they all seem like good choices - thanks!!

JD

Betrayer of Wind · Mar 20, 2009, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Just finished this run about 10m ago:

yep 9 heroes lol

Well i guess that proves to everyone that urgoz is entirely doable on HM with heroes and also a very decent time for a balanced group.

As for 8 party size,i'd just do smaller pulls(1-2 groups instead of 3-5)
would take much longer tho

Guide for heroway should be comming soon(bleh so lazy to take screen during the run lol)

Amnel Ithtirsol · Mar 20, 2009, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betrayer of Wind

Just finished this run about 10m ago:

yep 9 heroes lol

Well i guess that proves to everyone that urgoz is entirely doable on HM with heroes and also a very decent time for a balanced group.

As for 8 party size,i'd just do smaller pulls(1-2 groups instead of 3-5)
would take much longer tho

Guide for heroway should be comming soon(bleh so lazy to take screen during the run lol)

48min HM with heroes.
GG

Šiljo · Mar 20, 2009, 12:31 PM // 12:31

ROFL
very GG, Cryway groups take longer than that QQ

Tenebrae · Mar 20, 2009, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Šiljo

ROFL
very GG, Cryway groups take longer than that QQ

Well not really , the best ones are at 22-32 min record.