Curse

Cobalt · Nov 14, 2007, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

The SR nerf barely affects the build seeing as theres only 1 spirit in the build.

Yea but people who used it with Rit mains like me spammed spirits as well making it even more affective.

I guess if you are in an area that will have a lot of corpses you can change out Life for minions, just keep them weak to ensure lots of dying. This might even be better if the MM with Jagged Bones can use that on the N/Rt healers minions, I am just not sure if they can use it on minions they don't control.

cyber88 · Nov 14, 2007, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

The SR nerf barely affects the build seeing as theres only 1 spirit in the build.

Actually, it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

QFT... this update changes nothing for this build.

Refer to answer above.

As mention before and by Sab. When Life ends, it will provide a 10e return to the resto rit (before the nerf bat). I may be flamed by many (pvpers & anti-necs pvers) but this is my $0.02 worth. I play a primary monk & it is frigging difficult to find a decent pug that can finish quest/mission/dungeon (I won't even mention vanquishing) so I H/H most of the time. In some areas (who could forget about vanquishing Eastern Frontier) with only 4 man party size. There is only so much dps that team can dish out. Even with e-management, running my primary monk will run out of energy sooner or later (yes, I am unable to kill things fast enough). The N/Rt resto nec gave me that staying power by letting to kill slowly but steadily by providing me continous heals (NOT SPIKE HEALS) whether to start a minion army or otherwise when i switch to a smiting build to help wif the DPS. That is the strength of the resto nec. But, it is not without weakness. 2-3 spikes will overwhelm the heals. I know that a primary monk could outheal spikes easily (with or without) the correct build.

Now without staying power, yes, I could always rework my H/H config. BUT HELL. Heroes & henchies AI are screwed up as it is. If the main toon is a an offensive prof, the AI won't be that bad. When it is a defensive (or a toon who dun dish damage), the AI screwup hits thru the roof. Microing 3 heroes & the group of 4 henchies is a #@$^& already. Have anyone here done something like this. You, yourself healing/enchanting the different H/H while making sure that they INDIVIDUALLY are pressuring/hurting the correct different mobs from a friggin mob (there are a large number of areas where u need to pressure a few different mobs in order to start the killing)?

If your answer is yes, then I salute you. I am a causal player and at best an amature player. I want to enjoy my game not furiously mashing the different buttons on my keyboard and mouse at the same time (even FPS pvp games dun demand such attention) Yes, that 1 spirit actually mean a lot in this team build for me.

Before you flame me or anything. Get this straight. I am not asking for Anet to reverse the "skill balance". All I am stating is my point of view on the whether there is little effect or a lot of effect with the SR nerf & having 1 spirit on only 1 of the 3 skill bars.

Skuld · Nov 14, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

10e? 5 more like.

strcpy · Nov 14, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Life is 10e with a 20s recharge. At best - assuming 16 SR and when life ends you are able to trigger SR then you only net 6e

I would have to say that if an extra 6e every 20 second on a Necromancer makes much of a difference you are playing something terribly wrong. Heck, even lets assume that you only care about gross energy, if *one* trigger of SR every twenty seconds is going to make you go from full energy to none there is something seriously wrong with the way you playing.*

As long as you can get energy from minions that aren't your own this build is going to work. Life was there more for the skills that need a spirit close by to reduce harsh penalties and (to a lesser extent) the healing it provides when it dies. It wasn't part of the e-management - that is done by the cheap minions being spawned all the time.

*edit - You shouldn't be having this issue even if you are *new* to the game, it is not a matter of being "casual" or "hardcore". I can flag the group ahead of me into a large group of enemies, do nothing, and watch them win every single time. If they are dieing when you enter the fight then *you* are doing something grossly incorrect.

Curse You · Nov 15, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt

Yea but people who used it with Rit mains like me spammed spirits as well making it even more affective.

Did you miss the part about Soul Reaping only triggering on spirits created by that person? It doesn't really matter anymore, but still, having a Spirit Spammer actually made no difference with regards to the energy gain of the necromancers.

cyber88 · Nov 15, 2007, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

10e? 5 more like.

Thank you for pointing out.

My mistake for wrong quotation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

Life is 10e with a 20s recharge. At best - assuming 16 SR and when life ends you are able to trigger SR then you only net 6e

I would have to say that if an extra 6e every 20 second on a Necromancer makes much of a difference you are playing something terribly wrong. Heck, even lets assume that you only care about gross energy, if *one* trigger of SR every twenty seconds is going to make you go from full energy to none there is something seriously wrong with the way you playing.*

As long as you can get energy from minions that aren't your own this build is going to work. Life was there more for the skills that need a spirit close by to reduce harsh penalties and (to a lesser extent) the healing it provides when it dies. It wasn't part of the e-management - that is done by the cheap minions being spawned all the time.

*edit - You shouldn't be having this issue even if you are *new* to the game, it is not a matter of being "casual" or "hardcore". I can flag the group ahead of me into a large group of enemies, do nothing, and watch them win every single time. If they are dieing when you enter the fight then *you* are doing something grossly incorrect.

Thanks for your "wonderful" insights. Because of the "wonderful" AI, when I play (HM), I usually charge in with my H/H. As I am a monk, the mobs absolutely adores me and I take a good portion of the aggro & draws them away. The heroes are setup using tested working builds. (1 ss/enfeelbling, 1 sf ele & 1 hard interupt ranger). I took 1 healing hench, 1 blood hench, the ele hench & 1 mes hench. I myself play the prot monk. & my H/H hav problems surviving. Yes, I am a noob.

Case close

Sheriff · Nov 15, 2007, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyber88

Thanks for your "wonderful" insights. Because of the "wonderful" AI, when I play (HM), I usually charge in with my H/H. As I am a monk, the mobs absolutely adores me and I take a good portion of the aggro & draws them away. The heroes are setup using tested working builds. (1 ss/enfeelbling, 1 sf ele & 1 hard interupt ranger). I took 1 healing hench, 1 blood hench, the ele hench & 1 mes hench. I myself play the prot monk. & my H/H hav problems surviving. Yes, I am a noob.

Case close

As I tell many "new" players... relying on base classes only is 99% of the times a baaaaaad idea.

Be inovative! Play a smiter, bring Sab's team build, leave the healing hench at home (imho LoD nerf makes Mhenlo less useful than Lina), and by "ele hench" I sure hope you mean Herta, not Cynn.

BTW I'd also recommend Lo Sha for melee-heavy areas or Zho for caster-heavy areas.

Cobalt · Nov 15, 2007, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Did you miss the part about Soul Reaping only triggering on spirits created by that person? It doesn't really matter anymore, but still, having a Spirit Spammer actually made no difference with regards to the energy gain of the necromancers.

Oh I was thinking they were like anything else dying and triggering SR like, minions, pets, team, enemy etc... guess I was wrong.

Blobbe Tropper · Nov 15, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt

Oh I was thinking they were like anything else dying and triggering SR like, minions, pets, team, enemy etc... guess I was wrong.

i was thinking the same, another question? this build still works?

i suppose n/rt healer works better than lod healer..

Keithark · Nov 15, 2007, 02:14 PM // 14:14

I saved templates and then loaded them and went into normal mode imperial sanctum (working on carto title) I added a hench monk, warrior, ranger, and elly. It made things easy for sure...but there were still deaths and if I had been in hardmode there would have been party wipe city. It works great though to speed thru stuff in normal mode but for me I still need a buddy in HM to bring his heros so we can have a full 8 man team all with synergy not just 3 heros

Sheriff · Nov 15, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blobbe Tropper

i was thinking the same, another question? this build still works?

i suppose n/rt healer works better than lod healer..

After the changes to LoD, you can rest assured that the N/Rt restoration works way way better than LoD monk.

In fact and in general (with the exception of hex removal), Restoration is vastly superior to Healing.

mcsumo · Nov 15, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Well I just used the 3 necros with cynn, herta, lina and mhenlo to vanquish outside Umral Grotto (can't remember area name

). It still works fine as long as there are bodies. It doesn't do at all well in long drawn out fights, you need to be quickly in and take them down. Otherwise the minions all die and the whole team synergy is gone.

I find in hard mode that only 1 hench monk isn't enough and adding another offensive hench makes no difference to how quickly mobs die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

*edit - You shouldn't be having this issue even if you are *new* to the game, it is not a matter of being "casual" or "hardcore". I can flag the group ahead of me into a large group of enemies, do nothing, and watch them win every single time. If they are dieing when you enter the fight then *you* are doing something grossly incorrect.

And WTH are you talking about, strcpy? If you flag them into a group of flameshielders they will die since they are too stupid to run from big rocks landing on their head. If you flag them to where 3 Quetzl tengu patrols converge they will die. It is not possible for the player to join in the fight and make them lose. It is still about aggro control and playing well.

Sheriff · Nov 15, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcsumo

I find in hard mode that only 1 hench monk isn't enough and adding another offensive hench makes no difference to how quickly mobs die.

You're doing something wrong if you need a rest N/Rt AND 2 monk henchmen

The N/Rt is enough for NM. One more healer should be enough for HM. You should only need a 3rd monk if your party is balanced to all-offense-no-defense (like 5 channeling ritualists...)

EDIT: if you could provide more details about where/with which party choice/withi which build you're needing a 3rd healer...

ender6 · Nov 15, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheriff

As I tell many "new" players... relying on base classes only is 99% of the times a baaaaaad idea.

Be inovative! Play a smiter, bring Sab's team build, leave the healing hench at home (imho LoD nerf makes Mhenlo less useful than Lina), and by "ele hench" I sure hope you mean Herta, not Cynn.

BTW I'd also recommend Lo Sha for melee-heavy areas or Zho for caster-heavy areas.

Actually Mhenlo now uses WoH (as of Tuesday 11/13/2007):
http://www.guildwars.com/support/gameupdates/
Miscellaneous
Changed the elite skill used by the henchman Mhenlo in Eye of the North to Word of Healing.

Abnaxus · Nov 15, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

I got tyrian Guardian some days ago essentially using this team with my ranger, which was set mainly as interrupter with BHA and vanguard assassin, or HotHF + volley for some missions involving undeads.

In 6 men Krytan areas I took Thom and Alesia, in the desert Thom and Lina.

Actually breezed any mission (with the exception of Aurora Glade bonus where for unknown reasons I had only one chance to keep the bonus giver alive after several attempts).

In 8 man areas I used 2 hench warriors and 2 hench monks, again no problem, in Ring of Fire I went with my friend (ranger too) who added 2 monk heroes and Jora or Xandra.

In my opinion, the key for such easy time in Tyria is that the mob AI is programmed to attack the monk.
They don't "know" that the N/Rt is a healer and so they don't have a target against which prioritize and focus their attacks.
So the N/Rt (in my case Livia) does her dirty job essentially undisturbed.

Furthermore, their skills and AI are balanced against Prophecies skills, they have little or no counters against skills and classes from different campaigns.

Sheriff · Nov 15, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

Actually Mhenlo now uses WoH (as of Tuesday 11/13/2007):
http://www.guildwars.com/support/gameupdates/
Miscellaneous
Changed the elite skill used by the henchman Mhenlo in Eye of the North to Word of Healing.

Thanks for pointing that out. So the N/Rt + either of the henchies should be enough

Mhenlo would be better now for areas with short fights thanks to his spike healing (ex: vs 5 elementalists)

Lina would be better now for areas with long fights thanks to the energy she gets back from ZB (ex: vs balanced parties)

mcsumo · Nov 15, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheriff

You're doing something wrong if you need a rest N/Rt AND 2 monk henchmen

The N/Rt is enough for NM. One more healer should be enough for HM. You should only need a 3rd monk if your party is balanced to all-offense-no-defense (like 5 channeling ritualists...)

EDIT: if you could provide more details about where/with which party choice/withi which build you're needing a 3rd healer...

All sorts of areas, depends what I am fighting more than the area. AoE damage is the real killer, if you dont have the N/Rt AND Mhenlo and Lina. A group with 3 flameshielders will kill us, or 5 frozen elementals, or 6 ice imps, or 2 avalanches and 2 frozens, just about any combo of those nasty AoE types the AI can't handle. If I try to 'draw their fire' first, the N/Rt and 1 monk can't spike my health back up fast enough.

Jotun Skullsmashers are another problem, 4 giant stomps in a row bring every body's health down, a big group of Modnirs, can have the same effect. Even when I try to space them out with 4 seperate flags, they always seem to bunch up in their headless chicken routine.

Vanquishing the Charr and Norn areas in EotN has been a struggle, with me dragging them kicking and screaming through, despite their propensity to all stand in meteor showers/maelstroms repeatedly trying to cast spells.

Some areas I have abandoned them altogether and gone with a barrier/bonder monk (depending on enchant hate) or Hayda and Morgahn with an RC prot hero, as well as 2 hench monks....although in that case I use warrior/ranger hench.

I do know what I am doing I have, proected, guardianed, mapped and skill capped all 3 continents. It just seems to me that in some situations these necro guys leave their brains at home.

I wonder if which hero you have set up for which skill set can make difference. you know how Tahlkora always seems better at protting than Dunkoro and vice versa for healing?

beanerman_99 · Nov 15, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcsumo

All sorts of areas, depends what I am fighting more than the area. AoE damage is the real killer, if you dont have the N/Rt AND Mhenlo and Lina. A group with 3 flameshielders will kill us, or 5 frozen elementals, or 6 ice imps, or 2 avalanches and 2 frozens, just about any combo of those nasty AoE types the AI can't handle. If I try to 'draw their fire' first, the N/Rt and 1 monk can't spike my health back up fast enough.

Jotun Skullsmashers are another problem, 4 giant stomps in a row bring every body's health down, a big group of Modnirs, can have the same effect. Even when I try to space them out with 4 seperate flags, they always seem to bunch up in their headless chicken routine.
Vanquishing the Charr and Norn areas in EotN has been a struggle, with me dragging them kicking and screaming through, despite their propensity to all stand in meteor showers/maelstroms repeatedly trying to cast spells.
Some areas I have abandoned them altogether and gone with a barrier/bonder monk (depending on enchant hate) or Hayda and Morgahn with an RC prot hero, as well as 2 hench monks....although in that case I use warrior/ranger hench.

I do know what I am doing I have, proected, guardianed, mapped and skill capped all 3 continents. It just seems to me that in some situations these necro guys leave their brains at home.

I wonder if which hero you have set up for which skill set can make difference. you know how Tahlkora always seems better at protting than Dunkoro and vice versa for healing?

This. I just can't help but get mad at the fact that monsters scatter like roaches when the lights turn on if you hit them with an AoE spell....yet my henchmen stand in ANY AND ALL AoE from monsters and can cause a wipe in seconds. There needs to be some henchy AI balances made.

And no I am not "doing it wrong".

Big_Iron · Nov 15, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

This. I just can't help but get mad at the fact that monsters scatter like roaches when the lights turn on if you hit them with an AoE spell....yet my henchmen stand in ANY AND ALL AoE from monsters and can cause a wipe in seconds. There needs to be some henchy AI balances made.

And no I am not "doing it wrong".

I've been complaining about this for ages. I do get pretty angry when enemy AI knows to step out of an AoE attack, but my H/H team doesn't.

stretchs · Nov 15, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

I have went through 30 of the 34 areas in Elona with the 3 n/rt's basically same build as was initially posted. Really had very little issue outside of the roaring ethers. They were a bit nasty. I am a warrior that typically swords or on occasion ursan (yes i know I am horrible) I always bring the healer hench (Kihm the prot) Herta, Zho (or whatever the ranger is) and the Motivation hero. Very seldom did I ever have any issues with multiple deaths, the only char that ever had a problem was my ss N/Rt. He was just always taking too much aggro so had to work with him flagging.