Curse

WarcryOfTruth · Mar 05, 2010, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anduin

What party build would you suggest? I have 8 different classes (everything but ranger and monk) who need to do the festival quest. My friend whom I will be playing with only plays warrior for the time being (the rest of his characters aren't level 20).

Well, generally we just would use Obsidian Flesh to tank (before this most recent update, now we use something different), An SoS Rit (which we probably won't use much more either), 3 Nukers, an SS/BR Necro, and two Monks. It takes time, but my guild isn't into speed clearing so we don't care if we're there for 2 hours, 3 hours or even 8 hours. It never takes us more then 3-3.5 but you get my point

. If you're interested in joining us when we go again my IGN is Silence And Despair, we are planning to go Sunday evening.

jetlaw · Mar 05, 2010, 09:48 PM // 21:48

While I have seen some balanced teams with 8 humans make it through following the modifications to the UW (adding the skeletons, Dhuum, modifying the quests, etc.) I have yet to see verification of any team conquering Dhuum with only 2 people plus heros. Of course, if someone has actually been able to take out Dhuum with 2 + heros, feel free to post some screens and let us know what builds you have used to make this work.

As has been the case since the Dhuum modifications were made to the UW, the Ice King remains the quest which seems to break most teams. That said, the nerf to SF now adds a whole new set of variables to the more manageable quests. Unwanted Guests (the Vengeful Aatxe quest) has become more challenging, as have quests like the 4 Horsemen, since it is no longer possible to simply use SF by itself to deflect both spells and melee attacks. In the wake of the SF nerf, it is my belief that the UW is in need of a substantial re-work.

WarcryOfTruth · Mar 05, 2010, 11:22 PM // 23:22

I disagree with you sir, because every time my guild has done the Underworld, we did not use Shadow Form to complete it. We did not speed through it, but to me that is not what the game is about. We complete it in a pretty fair time if you ask me, between 3 and 4 hours and usually do not run into any trouble. Now, because Obsidian Flesh is slowly becoming the new meta for everything, we plan to change it up and use a Defy Pain tank to lead us. We don't think the time will be any slower either. But, the Underworld does NOT need to be fixed at all, it is one of the hardest areas in the game because of whats down there. It is supposed to be hard, as hard as it is now (though personally i miss the Mindflay Spectres

). Basically, your saying that without having someone immune to spells the party will fail. Well sir, let me tell you that once we complete the Underworld Sunday evening with our Defy Pain tank, we will prove you wrong

frostkisses · Mar 06, 2010, 04:32 AM // 04:32

imo, UW is fine as is.
Even vengefuls arent a problem with a spirit bodyblock while others spike the keeper...but anyway.
On topic:
Unfortunately, the biggest problem is see you having is healing. Imo, hero's will fail at wastes. I've completed UW with 3 people and 5 heros. People being a necro (ss), a monk (ua), and a ritualist (sos). Dont exactly remember what the heros ran, but really I would suggest you take a look at the recent buff to some of the rit skills. Many rit skills would be beneficial should you make it to Dhuum seeing as hes immune to conditions and hexes last half their normal duration. If your friend is going to be running warrior, I would suggest him bringing rending aura, if for nothing else, the smites. All that being said I REALLY advise you to be some sort of spirit spamming rit..SoS or Sig of Ghostly Might. In normal mode, a rit SHOULD be able to defend one side for 4h with one monk. At least long enough for the main team to finish off their side.

jetlaw · Mar 07, 2010, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

I disagree with you sir, because every time my guild has done the Underworld, we did not use Shadow Form to complete it. We did not speed through it, but to me that is not what the game is about. We complete it in a pretty fair time if you ask me, between 3 and 4 hours and usually do not run into any trouble. Now, because Obsidian Flesh is slowly becoming the new meta for everything, we plan to change it up and use a Defy Pain tank to lead us. We don't think the time will be any slower either. But, the Underworld does NOT need to be fixed at all, it is one of the hardest areas in the game because of whats down there. It is supposed to be hard, as hard as it is now (though personally i miss the Mindflay Spectres

). Basically, your saying that without having someone immune to spells the party will fail. Well sir, let me tell you that once we complete the Underworld Sunday evening with our Defy Pain tank, we will prove you wrong

Wow, I don't think I have seen a message from someone before which has expressed strong disagreement, while at the same time being extremely polite. It is refreshing to see someone state their peace without having to resort to personal attacks.

While I appreciate your comments, I believe you may have misconstrued what I was trying to convey. My OP was focused on the question of whether it is possible for a group of 2 people and 6 heros to do a full clear of the UW in this post-Dhuum era. So far, I have not seen anything which convinces me that this is possible.

The reason I asked the question relating to such a team is that I often am limited to playing at odd hours, when not many people are on line - restricting my ability to field an 8 man team. And, on the occasions when I am on during a normal play time, most of the PUGs I have encountered have either (a) been completely unwilling to accept someone on their team who hasn't done a plethora of runs using the meta of the moment, or (b) have been lesser experienced players who are unfamiliar with full clears, and really aren't very familiar with what needs to be done to make it all the way through (e.g. - trying to bring a 55, when they are no longer a viable option for tanking). So, to have more of a chance to be able to complete a full clear post Dhuum, I had sought to find a way to complete this with heros filling in most of the team slots.

As for your comments on SF, I think you misunderstood my view on why changes would be appropriate in light of the SF nerf. The addition of skeletons to the UW was done for the specific purpose of countering super fast speed clears by teams filled with permas. But, with SF now nerfed and no longer immune to the other damage dealers in the UW, it would seem to me that the skeletons no longer serve the purpose for which they were created. So, in my view, it would make sense for ANet to revise the UW accordingly (at the very least removing the skeleton spawns from the quests).

Quote:

Originally Posted by frostkisses

imo, UW is fine as is.
Even vengefuls arent a problem with a spirit bodyblock while others spike the keeper...but anyway.

My focus has really only been on the Ice King and 4 Horsemen. That said, I continue to believe that the UW is not fine as is, and the Unwanted Guests quest is a perfect example of that. In the Unwanted Guests quest you are asked to deal with (a) enemies you can't kill (the vengeful) while (b) countering damage that you can't avoid (the damage dealt by the 3 skeletons that spawn with each keeper). Yes, it is still possible to complete the quest, but even the slightest miscalculation and the team is toast. And the odds of completing this quest are even smaller if you are part of a balanced team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frostkisses

On topic:
Unfortunately, the biggest problem is see you having is healing. Imo, hero's will fail at wastes. I've completed UW with 3 people and 5 heros. People being a necro (ss), a monk (ua), and a ritualist (sos). Dont exactly remember what the heros ran, but really I would suggest you take a look at the recent buff to some of the rit skills. Many rit skills would be beneficial should you make it to Dhuum seeing as hes immune to conditions and hexes last half their normal duration. If your friend is going to be running warrior, I would suggest him bringing rending aura, if for nothing else, the smites. All that being said I REALLY advise you to be some sort of spirit spamming rit..SoS or Sig of Ghostly Might. In normal mode, a rit SHOULD be able to defend one side for 4h with one monk. At least long enough for the main team to finish off their side.

I have run as a SoS Rit in the UW on numerous occasions. I have cleared out EVERY non-quest enemy in the UW with my solo rit, and have completed the 4 horsemen quest by tanking one side with my rit. But these accomplishments have done nothing to change the result of every attempt I have made to conquer Dhuum (failure).

The failure point has always been the Ice King quest. What was once a manageable quest has turned into an INSANELY difficult quest to complete. Running with 2 people + heros, I would tend to wager that the Ice King is not only difficult, but impossible.

I would absolutely LOVE to have someone prove me wrong, by showing precisely how they completed a FC with nothing but 2 people and their heros. To put my money where my mouth is, I make this offer: I will happy donate 10 ecto to the first person who is able to provide the tactics and complete team build for a group of 2 people + 6 heros that can complete a FC (meaning all of the quests and Dhuum), when used by reasonably competent players.

WarcryOfTruth · Mar 07, 2010, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Well Jetlaw, my guild and some of my alliance (of which Frost Kisses leads, ironically

), we are planning to do UW this evening, not sure of the time, so if you'd like to join us for it your welcome to do so, my IGN is Silence And Despair so if you are interested drop me a line

Edit: Btw, about calling me polite: My intention was not to get a rise out of you, just to let you know that it is possible doing it without Shadow Form or anything like that. Many people when they disagree with someone in a debate they attack the person, not the idea, they think that they're stupid or whatever. And I by no means think that, you voiced your opinion, I respect it, and gave my rebuttal

frostkisses · Mar 07, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetlaw

The reason I asked the question relating to such a team is that I often am limited to playing at odd hours, when not many people are on line - restricting my ability to field an 8 man team. And, on the occasions when I am on during a normal play time, most of the PUGs I have encountered have either (a) been completely unwilling to accept someone on their team who hasn't done a plethora of runs using the meta of the moment, or (b) have been lesser experienced players who are unfamiliar with full clears, and really aren't very familiar with what needs to be done to make it all the way through.

Unfortunately pugging in gw is close to sticking your hand in a kettle of acid...
And I do understand your odd hours, as I have them as well. It sounds like to me that you need to find an alliance/guild that is active all day long..even if its just one other person to help you...that 3rd person can be tremendous help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetlaw

The addition of skeletons to the UW was done for the specific purpose of countering super fast speed clears by teams filled with permas. But, with SF now nerfed and no longer immune to the other damage dealers in the UW, it would seem to me that the skeletons no longer serve the purpose for which they were created. So, in my view, it would make sense for ANet to revise the UW accordingly (at the very least removing the skeleton spawns from the quests).

Not true, while permas were the number one foes, there were still 600's, obby flesh and rits to deal with. Skeletons are really no more than a mosquito by your ear when you get the hang of their patrols as you can often catch them on their own and squash them very quickly. (holy dmg ftw)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetlaw

The failure point has always been the Ice King quest. What was once a manageable quest has turned into an INSANELY difficult quest to complete. Running with 2 people + heros, I would tend to wager that the Ice King is not only difficult, but impossible.

Clear the chamber, take restoring..then do this quest FIRST. Play around with things til you find what works. There are maps now of the spawn points for the dryders. Technobabble is hilarious against these guys...I havent had a whole lot of time to do any UW lately, but if I get a chance I may take you up on your offer to prove.

jetlaw · Mar 18, 2010, 03:18 AM // 03:18

A few follow up questions for Warcry and Frost with regard to the Ice King quest.

I see four possibilities for taking on this quest:

(1) Using a tank (or multiple tanks) which is able to absorb the damage from the skeletons while simultaneously tanking the 4 groups of dryders, without any external healing;

(2) Using a tank (or multiple tanks) which is able to absorb the damage from the skeletons while simultaneously tanking the 4 groups of dryders, with external healing;

(3) Using a tank (or multiple tanks) to hold the dryders without aggroing the skeletons; or

(4) Not using a tank at all, and using massive damage reduction (SY!), knock downs (GDW), healing, and high DPS (e.g. Barrage + MoP).

As to the first option, I would LOVE to see a tank build which is able to absorb the damage from both the dryders and the skeletons at the same time, without any external healing, but I have not yet been able to create such a build, nor have I heard of anyone who has. Have you heard of or seen any build which is able to do this?

As for the second option, the healing itself is pretty straightforward. However, getting the healer in range to heal, while not getting in the line of fire themselves, is more tricky that it looks. Every time I have seen this done either the tank has been out of range, or the enemy mob breaks off of the tank and targets the healer, resulting in a wipe. While it is possible to use Heal Party and/or LoD to heal the tank at a distance, this has been difficult to maintain, and the level of healing has been insufficient to counter the damage dealt by the skeletons for very long. So, how do you guys see this done? Is there a special place for the healer to stand so they can be close enough to heal the tank(s) wile remaining a safe distance away from the dryder spawns?

For the third option, I have seen some claims of people being able to get the dryders to target them, while leaving the skeletons to walk on their own towards the king and reaper. If this could be done, it would make things much easier, as it would allow the main team to spike down the skeletons alone, while the tank maintained the aggro from the dryders. The main team could then come in to help kill the dryders, or just let the tank kill them solo. Have you guys ever seen this done? If so, would you mind sharing the tactics of going about doing this?

The last option would be great in a perfect world, and I know that people have done it, but it seems exceptionally risky and hard to pull off. I have tried this a couple times, but it hasn't worked out so far (the enemy mobs ended up not staying close enough together, and the enemy firepower ended up overpowering the healing). If you believe this to be a good feasible solution, could you provide some specifics on how this is done?

Thanks for your responses guys :-)

Keneth · Mar 25, 2010, 11:08 AM // 11:08

I'm just gonna add my 2 cents here. I've been busting my brain on how to pull this off for weeks now and so far I haven't come up with a single idea on how to do Servants or Horsemen without employing the help of a fellow tank player (I figure an OF terra tank could pull it off). I've tried going defensive (spirits, lots of healing, SY!, etc.) and they crushed us, I've tried going with lots of damage (discord, DS, AoE spells,...), I've tried denial (shutdown, KD, interrupts), and I've also tried a couple of balanced teams - nothing worked.

Now I consider myself a pretty good PvE player, I've plowed through HM on missions, vq, as well as dungeons, and I've been doing elite missions with my friends lately without any serious problems, but beating UW in its current state seems like an impossible task for 2 people, no matter how experienced. And it doesn't make sense that a game should force you to team up with people you don't know or a PUG with cookie-cutter builds that doesn't have any need for your class, that's not my idea of fun. So yeah, I'm inclined to agree that UW needs to be seriously reworked because it's not fun getting wiped every time, wasting both my time and money. Or if they absolutely must leave it as it is, they should at least modify it in a way we can do each area separately, like DoA, so that all of our efforts aren't wasted if we happen to get wiped on account of inefficiency or even a simple blunder.

But that's just me...

WarcryOfTruth · Mar 25, 2010, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetlaw

Using a tank (or multiple tanks) which is able to absorb the damage from the skeletons while simultaneously tanking the 4 groups of dryders, without any external healing;

(2) Using a tank (or multiple tanks) which is able to absorb the damage from the skeletons while simultaneously tanking the 4 groups of dryders, with external healing;

(3) Using a tank (or multiple tanks) to hold the dryders without aggroing the skeletons; or

(4) Not using a tank at all, and using massive damage reduction (SY!), knock downs (GDW), healing, and high DPS (e.g. Barrage + MoP).
[/INDENT]
As to the first option, I would LOVE to see a tank build which is able to absorb the damage from both the dryders and the skeletons at the same time, without any external healing, but I have not yet been able to create such a build, nor have I heard of anyone who has. Have you heard of or seen any build which is able to do this?

Yes, this is 100% possible. Go Dervish/Elementalist. While the skeleton damage will not be reduced by any means, turning the Dryder damage to zero, via Stoneflesh Aura, Armor of Earth, Armor of Sanctity, and I Am Unstoppable and/or Aura of Stability to prevent knockdowns. However I would perhaps use both, because I Am Unstoppable can bypass the armor boost cap of +24 armor by multiple skills. Combined with Armor of Earth, you'll have close to +90 armor, along with damage reduction of 33 (Stoneflesh Aura) + 15 (Armor of Sanctity IF enemies have conditions) + 5 (If using an Armor of Salvation). So with a damage reduction of 53, AFTER having over 190 armor (+90 from Skills, Derv might/should have +20 from Windwalker Insignias, and your 70 base, along with +10 from the Armor of Salvation), if you take any damage other then from Skeletons I will be impressed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetlaw

As for the second option, the healing itself is pretty straightforward. However, getting the healer in range to heal, while not getting in the line of fire themselves, is more tricky that it looks. Every time I have seen this done either the tank has been out of range, or the enemy mob breaks off of the tank and targets the healer, resulting in a wipe. While it is possible to use Heal Party and/or LoD to heal the tank at a distance, this has been difficult to maintain, and the level of healing has been insufficient to counter the damage dealt by the skeletons for very long. So, how do you guys see this done? Is there a special place for the healer to stand so they can be close enough to heal the tank(s) wile remaining a safe distance away from the dryder spawns?

Use what was mentioned above

, and the Dervish should also have Faithful Intervention, Mystic Regeneration, and if not using Vow of Silence then Vital Boon + Signet of Pious Light. That should be overkill healing, and in fact it might be, but it will work when doing Servants of Grenth. Nothing in that quest will remove enchantments, but in Four Horsemen you need to be careful, because one Power Block ends it all, so instead of either Mystic Regen or Faithful Intervention, your choice, I would maybe put Pious Concentration. Sure, you are not using an elite skill, but you do not need one for this

. This should work, and you should have no problems

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetlaw

For the third option, I have seen some claims of people being able to get the dryders to target them, while leaving the skeletons to walk on their own towards the king and reaper. If this could be done, it would make things much easier, as it would allow the main team to spike down the skeletons alone, while the tank maintained the aggro from the dryders. The main team could then come in to help kill the dryders, or just let the tank kill them solo. Have you guys ever seen this done? If so, would you mind sharing the tactics of going about doing this?

I have no idea how this is done, we generally have our tank stand in the middle, hold everything, and those that escape up to Frozenwind are stopped by our Spirit Spammer up there, the rest of the team stays near the Reaper, after all who break off toward Frozenwind are dealt with, the spirit spammer pincers the Dryder/Skellies to finish the quest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetlaw

The last option would be great in a perfect world, and I know that people have done it, but it seems exceptionally risky and hard to pull off. I have tried this a couple times, but it hasn't worked out so far (the enemy mobs ended up not staying close enough together, and the enemy firepower ended up overpowering the healing). If you believe this to be a good feasible solution, could you provide some specifics on how this is done?

That I am unsure of, we do not use Save Yourselves, nor have we, if we do HM ever, we would bring a different source of damage mitigation.

I hope my answers help, even if only a little bit, I am only going based on theories, the D/E thing was never tested, but if you look at the math, how can it not work?

But, always good to try new things, I can maybe see how it would not work, but the Dervish would have just way too much armor.

jetlaw · Mar 25, 2010, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Keneth:

Most certainly agree with you. Thanks for your comments. Although it is unclear if ANet actually reads them, you may want to post your thoughts on this on the official wiki in the suggestions section. LINK I posted some suggestions there for the UW, but of course, the more of us who post, the better the odds are that ANet will actually effectuate a change.
___________________________________

Warcry:

Thanks, as always, for your comments. Definitely enjoyed running with you a week ago, and hope to be able to run with you again in the not so distant future. In the interim, I continue to plug along looking for alternate methods of making things work with a 2 + 6 team. Although it may not be possible, I keep at it in the hope that maybe, just maybe, a way can be found to make things work.

I was able to craft a 600 Perma Mo/As build which was able to tank pretty well, and was able to resist pretty much every enemy up to the Ice King quest with ease. During the Ice King quest I was able to withstand the damage from the dryders without issue, but had a few (4 if I recall correctly) skeletons pounding me at the same time, which made it rather difficult to counter their damage output (multiple spikes + multiple flurrys can be hard to counter, especially when they are in close succession). A Mo/De would generate far more healing ability, so I will likely do some testing with that. I will also need to try to test out the De/El which you have suggested.

Essence Snow · Mar 26, 2010, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keneth

And it doesn't make sense that a game should force you to team up with people you don't know or a PUG with cookie-cutter builds that doesn't have any need for your class, that's not my idea of fun. So yeah, I'm inclined to agree that UW needs to be seriously reworked because it's not fun getting wiped every time, wasting both my time and money....

I agree 100%. I cannot stand that there is basically only 1-2 ways to do UW. IMO it is a waste of what could be a really fun area. Running the cookie cutter runs were fun for couple runs, but that doesnt last. Variety is the spice of life and tbh UW tastes a lot like sinamon...bland.

WarcryOfTruth · Mar 26, 2010, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

I agree 100%. I cannot stand that there is basically only 1-2 ways to do UW. IMO it is a waste of what could be a really fun area. Running the cookie cutter runs were fun for couple runs, but that doesnt last. Variety is the spice of life and tbh UW tastes a lot like sinamon...bland.

More then 1-2 ways... countless ways, none of the "cookie cutter" stuff is required.

Essence Snow · Mar 26, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

I was reffering to PUGs. You either run this or you can't join. Plus there r the quests that require specific tactics...i.e couple methods....to complete. (frozenwind)

Ganksta · May 28, 2010, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

Well sir, let me tell you that once we complete the Underworld Sunday evening with our Defy Pain tank, we will prove you wrong

I read this thread and don't see that you have reported back on whether or not the team with a Defy Pain tank was successful.

Has anyone beaten Dhuum with any team including a Warrior tank?

Neith · May 28, 2010, 01:29 PM // 13:29

yes we have beaten UW with a warrior tank several times. when we can't get an ele tank we take a warrior tank. Me and warcryof truth lead the same guild.

jetlaw · Jun 07, 2010, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Care to post (or PM) the Defy Pain build you used? It would also help to know how it was used (eg, does it need a bonder to be used, is there a dedicated healer behind them, etc).

I have now been successful with completing the Ice King quest with 2 + heros (we have done about 10 successful runs through Ice King so far). It helps alot that they made the Ice King more resistant to enemy fire, so he can now handle a few dryders and skeletons on his own.

The only hitch we have had with a FC is the 4 Horsemen quest. We have come very close to finishing it with 2 + heros but have had a few inopportune failures (mostly based on the signet interrupts).

I know we are getting close, but to help refine our build modifications, I'd be interested to see what tank builds others have used recently that are able to handle both the Ice King and 4H. So, if anyone is willing to share their uber secret tank builds, it would be greatly appreciated. If you'd rather not post the builds, please feel free to PM them to me. I promise not to post or divulge any builds provided to me in confidence.

Neith · Jun 08, 2010, 04:58 AM // 04:58

actually jetlaw, i know someone who has beaten 4h and wastes with heroe's. I don't know the builds he has used and I know he is still practicing to make a full run with i think 3-4 people and the rest heroes. But like I said he has beaten 4h and wastes a few times now. If he wants to share his builds, i'll let you know in game. I don't know the warrior tank build we use tbh, i do know one monk uses balth on the warrior tank for e-mgmt. and i believe they use endure pain, obby flesh, signet of stamina i believe and others i'm not so sure about. Honestly, I'm saddened that they made 4h and wastes easier. It was a nice challenge to see if you can do it or not. Now it's just easy. Anyway, if you want more info let me know and I'll see what i can do.

jetlaw · Jun 08, 2010, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Have run with Warcry before, and was good to see your guild in action. Sadly, the run didn't result in a successful clear, but it was good to see the tactics used nonetheless.

Yes, certainly would like the info on the tanking options. I really think that this is the only piece of the puzzle that we are missing. We have completed the other areas with multiple different hero configurations, and have been able to resist the enemy on one side of 4H, so it really comes down to perfecting the build for the tank.

Thanks much!

FoxBat · Jun 09, 2010, 06:53 AM // 06:53

I've been solo+heroing UW in testing for a 2-man run later. Build right now is Panic + Mistrust etc. dom player in mantra of flame, channel + resto spammer, soul twist offensive commune w/shelter, clumsi spam mez hero w/shared burden and can't touch this. Can take pretty much all the mobs with care, the bigger the dryder group, the less they can cast, and they die fast enough. Clearing pits was cake, almost soloed Frozen Wastes quest (4-man cleared reaper side fine, king just finally died when the reaper waves were dead: when my buddy joins me she will take care of the king.) Not sure if 4H will work but the plan is to split that instead of merely tanking one side. Will update later.