Curse

Antheus · Nov 14, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai

Completely false. Your average player should know most or all these things. It is pointed out in the tutorials about aggroing and the circle if you paid any attention to it at all. Everything else should be learned as you play the game unless your one of those people that want everything hand fed to them. It's called game experience and by the time you reach this mission the player should have a basic understanding of all these things.

I agree that they should know. But they don't *need* to know.

The game up until that point allows you to get by without knowing these skills. It was the same issue with THK. It required up until that point an unfamiliar strategy. No other mission required you to hold an area and protect someone. So naturally, you could have been a quite decent player up until that point, but faced with new situation, target prioritization, positioning and retreat becoming a must, it simply didn't fit.

Same goes for desert missions. Elona introduced a timer, which was more than enough, yet people freaked out and rushed straight into death.

Thristy river required taking consideration of timer for respawns, and shutting down/killing the priest.

All of these missions were unpopular. Elona still has 24/7 running service, an odd MM or two will run Thristy river.

This, to an extent defeats the purpose. If a mission is "borked" to an extent that many find it unenjoyable, it's not a good thing.

While I agree that all those missions were a preparation for pvp game style, the distinction between PvEers and PvPers has always been huge. And with new story-oriented design, where PvE is a linear sequence of missions, perhaps even redundant.

As a side note, RoF missions don't suffer from that. The common complaint there is lack of players, not mission difficulty. Because they follow the expected pattern. Kill group, move on, kill group, ..., kill boss.

I'm not taking sides here about whether last two missions are too hard or too easy. But the missions I see most people frustrated about are the last two, Gates of Desolation, Jenur Horde and Rilohn Refuge. It's unproductive to claim whether they really are hard, but they do cause frustration.

I'm also not suggesting a nerf of any kind, since it's not really possible to nerf a mission type. But anything that deviates from common mission design causes frustration, which is not a good thing.

My suggestion with regard to this would be, that primary storyline should be "easy", focusing on story itself, without presenting too many obstacles. Then, add more difficult missions, elite style, which can be done at leisure, perhaps even for decent rewards, or area unlocks. But never should any player get stuck for several days on one mission that is part of regular storyline.

This would benefit everyone. Hard-core players would breeze through content in 5 hours instead of 6. Casual players would find gameplay constantly enjoyable. And then, without the presure of "completing the game", everyone could focus on completing the optional objectives. For a casual player, 20 missions is a lot in the first place.

Arx Baron · Nov 14, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Shiro can't him himself without his Battle Scars stance. So use a Wild Blow when he activates it, the reload for his stance is 11sec and the reload of Wild Blow is 5sec.
Besides, if you can pull him to fight him alone, he doesn't have any enchantment remover, so you're safe with a Protective Spirit. Beware to use the Wild Blow, because his Battle Scars are considered to be Life Stealing attacks, and they will pierce the Protective Spirit.

Rera · Nov 14, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

@Antheus: If your only concern is whether something causes frustration, there are a lot of things in this game that should be removed. For instance: rare items, PuGs, local chat, etc.

Your proposed solution only widens the gap between veteran players and newbies, which is interesting given the current feeling that the GW community is dying because veteran players refuse to PuG.

Making the campaign harder and forcing people to think would improve the average skill level of the GW playerbase, and thus encourage people to play together because the chances of finding other competent players increases. Making the campaign easier so that anyone can beat it without thinking simply exacerbates the preceived problem.

The fact that the mending wammo is not a myth should be raising red flags for people. Why does he exist, and how can we make him extinct?

@justadude: You don't have to like PvP, that wasn't the point. You asked me what I found challenging, and I answered your question. It has nothing to do with the rest of this discussion, because as Antheus demonstrated PvP is unrelated to PvE.

From what I see, your position is that some people are having trouble with this mission, so it must be too hard. Nevermind all of the people who *didn't* have trouble with this mission, nevermind how little skill is actually required to beat it, and nevermind that people who have done the mission are spoonfeeding the strategy to you. All you have to do is swallow, but apparently some people can't even manage that.

Your response to Yun was also quite predictable. "Well, if you don't help me you must not be able to do it! LOL NUB!" Why should anyone be obligated to give you a free pass through the mission? I hate people who use this tactic and then act like they managed to prove something. The fact is that many people have gotten Master's on this mission with little difficulty. Oh wait, but they didn't help you so they must all be lying! Yeah!

jackwooly · Nov 14, 2006, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Bring:

1 SS Hero/Player - Empathy, Reckless Haste, Price of Failure and Insidious Parasite are helpful along with SS.

1 Spoil Victor Hero/Player - If it's a hero just load them up with other blood spells.

1 Wild Blow Hero/Player - Wild Blow is all that is critically needed, defensive stances help a lot though.

I used this load up of Heroes + Warrior, Paragon and both Healer Henchies.

I was a support/healing Paragon using the first build posted in the 'Duo Paragons' thread in the Paragon forum.

Got Masters on the first try and only had around 3 or 4 deaths due to accidental aggro.

In my experience I found the last mission harder because of the bloomin' Torment Claws.

I finished the game today by the way.

darktyco · Nov 14, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Well, after being denied entry into groups for being a N/Me without SS or SV (I still don't know whether I can even get those skills b/c I only own Nightfall) I ended up henching it and beating it by soloing this Shiro punk with my oh-so-nottherightbuildforthismission necro.

1st Attempt: Wipe after Shiro spawns his minions before you reach the temple
2nd Attempt: Wipe after the portals are opened
3rd Attempt: Clear all portals by running up, hexing the crap out of single portal wraith, run away, watch him slowly die, run back, repeat. Then run into the temple, own the liche. Ignore Shiro and run to each alter and get the blessing. Kite Shiro back into the middle, space out the henchies and start to whack away at him. At about 25% health Koss keeps dying from Impossible Odds (despite having 3 healers), all henches end up dying after that. I run up the stairs, Shiro chases me. Shiro runs away, I cast Reaper's Mark and Phantasm on him. He chases me and runs away again, so I reapply hexes. Repeat for about 15 minutes, throwing in different degens just to mix it up. Shiro dies.

I don't know how I'll ever get my Dervish through this though, since I can't use this type of exploit and the Derv seems even less desirable in a group for this mission than a non-SV necro is. One of my elementals (who I did not bring along on this mission) has a blind skill and maybe that would make the whole thing much easier.

Don't think I'm complaining here: I did like the set up and challenge for this mission quite a bit. It needed multiple tries and a decent amount of forethought to finish. I liked the tricky pulls, suprise spawns and everything, it kind of felt like working through an instance from WoW (don't lynch me.) I think all of the missions should have at least some of the challenge this one had.

The only thing I don't like is the cheese factor that made the boss so hard, because to properly defuse him requires skills I don't have or know how to get. How the heck am I supposed to get this wailing blow skill onto Koss when none of the hero skill trainers offer it? Or SV or SS when you can only cap the skills from the other two GW games? And like it or not the encounter makes certain classes undesirable for the average-joe pug, and that sucks.

I've only been playing GW since Nightfall was released though, so these are just the ramblings of a newb.

jackwooly · Nov 14, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Wild Blow is a Core skill so a trainer somewhere should offer it, it is a warrior skill as well, linked to the 'No Attribute' section.

Unfortunately you will not be able to obtain SS or SV without Prophecies.

Age · Nov 14, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai

Nightfall, not factions.

You don't get celestial skills in Nightfall.

What did I say in my post I will reinterate I didn't use celestial skills on any of my chars when beating Shiro in Factions as well as my Monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera
GvG.

This is not a challenge it is teams effort a chellenge is something of a goal.

justadude · Nov 14, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

@justadude: You don't have to like PvP, that wasn't the point. You asked me what I found challenging, and I answered your question. It has nothing to do with the rest of this discussion, because as Antheus demonstrated PvP is unrelated to PvE.

From what I see, your position is that some people are having trouble with this mission, so it must be too hard. Nevermind all of the people who *didn't* have trouble with this mission, nevermind how little skill is actually required to beat it, and nevermind that people who have done the mission are spoonfeeding the strategy to you. All you have to do is swallow, but apparently some people can't even manage that.

Your response to Yun was also quite predictable. "Well, if you don't help me you must not be able to do it! LOL NUB!" Why should anyone be obligated to give you a free pass through the mission? I hate people who use this tactic and then act like they managed to prove something. The fact is that many people have gotten Master's on this mission with little difficulty. Oh wait, but they didn't help you so they must all be lying! Yeah!

I never denied that that many people have made it. I simply believe that this mission is not on par with the rest of the campaign. By the nature of its design it is hard to get in a good group to finish it do to the fact that this mission dictated to a large degree skill sets needed. I agree with Antheus views on the subject. Storyline missions should be by design not as exclusive as Gate of Madness is. Every group is preparing for Shiro and only Shiro. If you do not fit the skill set you don't go along. I do not think a storyline mission should have such a design. When I go to the Tombs, Warren or the Deep I can choose the class I bring. In the storyline I am stuck with what I am trying to progress in the story.

Yeah, I have capped skills, bought them and whatnot for this mission. I find that sort of sad, going to Factions to cap a skill for Nightfall, but hey its alright I guess. Yeah, I have gone through the strategies and even had help from some of my pvp guildmates, but at least they agree that its not a sure thing.

Please, Rera, I never said Yun could not do it. I said my request for help and the there in lying challenge to Yun was, as I had thought, too much for him. I think he can do it, but Yun will not put himself in that situation because, one, he said he is selfish. I figured he was that type. It is why he shows so little regard for others in this situation. He did it easy, so should others. Two, I believe and this is only an assumption, that he does not want to put himself in a situation he could fail and be shown up. Maybe the mission is not as much of a joke as Yun (and you btw) would like us to believe. Maybe it isnt a joke, because a joke provide levity. I dont think you or Yun were lacking seriousness in this mission or did you light heartedly slaughter Glint?

Darn, it just hit me, or at least I am going to say it now... Rera, and Yun you too... give yourselves some credit, not everyone is a good as you are. Please, give yourself some credit.

gestalt · Nov 14, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by darktyco

Well, after being denied entry into groups for being a N/Me without SS or SV (I still don't know whether I can even get those skills b/c I only own Nightfall) I ended up henching it and beating it by soloing this Shiro punk with my oh-so-nottherightbuildforthismission necro.

1st Attempt: Wipe after Shiro spawns his minions before you reach the temple
2nd Attempt: Wipe after the portals are opened
3rd Attempt: Clear all portals by running up, hexing the crap out of single portal wraith, run away, watch him slowly die, run back, repeat. Then run into the temple, own the liche. Ignore Shiro and run to each alter and get the blessing. Kite Shiro back into the middle, space out the henchies and start to whack away at him. At about 25% health Koss keeps dying from Impossible Odds (despite having 3 healers), all henches end up dying after that. I run up the stairs, Shiro chases me. Shiro runs away, I cast Reaper's Mark and Phantasm on him. He chases me and runs away again, so I reapply hexes. Repeat for about 15 minutes, throwing in different degens just to mix it up. Shiro dies.

I don't know how I'll ever get my Dervish through this though, since I can't use this type of exploit and the Derv seems even less desirable in a group for this mission than a non-SV necro is. One of my elementals (who I did not bring along on this mission) has a blind skill and maybe that would make the whole thing much easier.

Don't think I'm complaining here: I did like the set up and challenge for this mission quite a bit. It needed multiple tries and a decent amount of forethought to finish. I liked the tricky pulls, suprise spawns and everything, it kind of felt like working through an instance from WoW (don't lynch me.) I think all of the missions should have at least some of the challenge this one had.

The only thing I don't like is the cheese factor that made the boss so hard, because to properly defuse him requires skills I don't have or know how to get. How the heck am I supposed to get this wailing blow skill onto Koss when none of the hero skill trainers offer it? Or SV or SS when you can only cap the skills from the other two GW games? And like it or not the encounter makes certain classes undesirable for the average-joe pug, and that sucks.

I've only been playing GW since Nightfall was released though, so these are just the ramblings of a newb.

Congratulation, you are competent. Your tactic was not an exploit, kiting is perfectly valid.

Please do not worry too much about your dervish I got my dervish through just fine and I am sure you will be able to as well. Neither SS or SV are necessary to win they are simply nice to have. There are many ways to beat shiro. With decent positioning and a solid strat any competent person can bring any class through.

Unfortunately there are many stupid sterotypes in the average joe PUG. This mission does cause it to be magnified, but either way you clearly showed those stereotypes to be as worthless as they are. Unfortunately I have no solution for this.

This mission is an all or nothing sort of thing with an inadequate strat or excution you can get aced in no time. With correct execution and an adequate strat Shiro is actually easy. The execution is not even hard and there are a plethora of non-exclusive builds that can work. But if you went in with the wrong build/idea you not only lose but get your clock cleaned.

That is why these threads go on forever. Its an all or nothing propostion and those who have failed get their clocks so throughly cleaned that it seems like its all cheesed out.

It may be true that the all or nothing nature of Shiro is cheesy, I dunno. I find it rather amusing but I did it in two tries. I doubt I would be amused after a few days. People can decide that for themselves. It does rather suck to go through the whole thing over and over just for Shiro.

Is Shiro hard? Not exactly, tricky is what I would call him. Is he cheesy? maybe.

Ras Mortis · Nov 14, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Hey, good job Darktyco on figuring out what works for you. Korbinus, Audra and Soadlink...great advice and interesting takes on how to beat the mission. That is, after all, what Natuxatu asked for...some helpful tips on how to effectively get through the mission. Good stuff.

I have yet to attempt this mission yet, although I am at that point. I prefer to complete every area (map, cap and master) before I move on to a new area, which obviously is a bit slower than your "gotta have that white-dyed end-game armor first" types. I have yet to include other players in my NF excursions. The added hero's have thankfully made PuGs obsolete. I'm not antisocial, per se, I would just rather lead than follow.

But, mostly, this thread illustrates the main reason I don't dig PuGing it. You always have a few "leetist" types who just don't get it. (It's about FUN, Rera...or so I'm told) And you have those types that must follow the crowd, refusing to try new ideas. There was a time in GW, when the 55 monk did not exist. A time when Dunes of Despair was conquered without Necrotic Travel. And a time when the acronym MM only meant the candy. But someone with a bit of creativity DID think of those builds/tactics.

On that note, Rera is on the right track. If you really want to be good at this addictive frickin' game, learn something from your failures, and attack at a new angle. Otherwise, there are more exciting hobbies out there...like...lawndarts or mouse-trap juggling.

If I had to follow a trend, then I'd follow Darktyco's example...if you don't at first succeed, then try "try again". That is the path to Veteran...young grasshopper.

Shanaeri Rynale · Nov 15, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

It's true that Shiro and Lich dont get any build up. It's one of the failings of the story. Tan Dan Ta Here is the Lich and Shiro like some kinda GW WWF match up. Some Forshadowing would be useful.

BUT part of the fun is finding out and developing a counter. It's the very fact it's a tactical surprise is that makes it part of a challenge.

To be really honest, they dumbed S+l Down. Taking down Urgoz or Kanaxi was harder, as are some of the realm of torment areas.

Give it another week or two and this mission will be tamed, like the rest of them. The builds will be out, tactics posted and part of me thinks the game will be less for it.

SnipiousMax · Nov 15, 2006, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Please don't wander too far from the original topic of this thread, and at the very least be civil with each other. If this thread degenerates to more arguing and flaming rather than debate and tactics... we'll have to close it.

lennymon · Nov 15, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

heehee, I even turned my ranger into an sv/toucher one time, shiro lost a LOT of life because of me. Too bad we had quitters and got wiped, it was fun.
I say more kudos to darktyco and folks like him who find a way... thats how you actually learn and become a good player in this game, not super leet green items of leetness or endgame armor dyed 3blacks and a white, or all skills capped (well ok this helps your learning though as you do your research and see more opponents and skill combos).

Ras Mortis · Nov 15, 2006, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Just Mastered the mission first time up, all hench/hero! WOOT! And, honestly, I don't think I would have been so successful if I had not read this thread first. So, thank you fellow posters for the sage advice. I can see how this mission could take the wind out of your sails if you go in without some advance intel. Really, for me, the toughest part was the Shiroken attack from the rear and ahead. That was the closest I came to total chaos. I would suggest a push forward through the ambush, vice the semi-orderly retreat that I tried. I also pared down the Hero skills to just 5 or so vital ones to avoid micro-managing the party. Finally, I noted I was not required to kneel at the altars in order to receive each god's blessing. I simply stood near each as I eliminated the guardian Margonites.

gestalt · Nov 15, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ras Mortis

Just Mastered the mission first time up, all hench/hero! WOOT! And, honestly, I don't think I would have been so successful if I had not read this thread first. So, thank you fellow posters for the sage advice. I can see how this mission could take the wind out of your sails if you go in without some advance intel. Really, for me, the toughest part was the Shiroken attack from the rear and ahead. That was the closest I came to total chaos. I would suggest a push forward through the ambush, vice the semi-orderly retreat that I tried. I also pared down the Hero skills to just 5 or so vital ones to avoid micro-managing the party. Finally, I noted I was not required to kneel at the altars in order to receive each god's blessing. I simply stood near each as I eliminated the guardian Margonites.

The shiroken are actually easy, if you know the trick.

The is this: as soon as Shiro starts talking run down the slop past the double claws and then down the slope a little more. Then take the waves at your leisure. The waves from the bottom come through the lower gate and the waves at the top come through that upper gate. Kill the lower gate waves at the bottom and away from the top of the hill. Then kill the next lower gate wave. Do the same at the top. This way you only fight 4 skiroken at a time.

Easy peasy, just avoid the squeeze play and disrupt the pathing of the waves.

Senator Tom · Nov 15, 2006, 03:37 AM // 03:37

The mission is cake up to Shiro at 1/4 hp. Ward of Melee pwns shiro, gogo!

clawofcrimson · Nov 15, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

geez.... are we stilll talkin about this mission?

I will post my screenie when I get home... done first try.... with henchis..

Seriously... I was almost complaining about how easy this game was....till i got to madness. The only hard part was trying to beat it with "human" players. You can almost beat this whole game half asleep with heroes... just target a mob, attack and go get a snack, when your done target the next group and so on.

This game is supposed to be geared towards players having skill, but as soon as a challenging mission comes along, players start crying to a net because they wanna be spoon fed.

...read the skills....think up your own build...and have that sense of accomplishment when you kill shiro...

Batou of Nine · Nov 15, 2006, 03:43 AM // 03:43

i have attempted this mission 6 times now.
All hench/hero team.
Every single attempt, i had not had ANY deaths until the end fighting Shiro.
The only time my group starts to die, obviously from Impossible Odds.

I consider myself a vary experienced player as i have played since day one of GW and do both PvP and PvE. I have gone through ALL of Nightfall with henchies and heroes, save a couple missions that guildmates did with me. With this experience i have used every possible combination of builds i can think of to shut Shiro down. KD, interrupts, wards, stance breakers, degen, spike dmg, etc etc...

I have tried different setups every time. SS Necro, along with other anti melee hexes. Anti-Melee wards. KD ele spells. KD Hammer warrior. Constant Degen. And several others, all this time using Wild Blow myself to time correctly with his Battle Scars usage. The main problem, as i said, is IO. I can easily get him down to 1/4 life, but as SOON as he starts using IO, his life simply does not drop anymore and my team starts to drop 1 by 1.

So i have tried EVERY counter and build in the book, why can't i kill this guy? Oh that's right, Impossible Odds. 6 times now, 10% moral boost, all blessings from all shrines, Shiro down to 1/4 life, then its over... So far, in this thread, i haven't read any foolproof or solid methods on taking him down when he uses IO. I am sick of repeating this mission and absolutely despise PUGs; So what ARE these so called "Oh, Shiro was so easy" methods?

ugh. cheers!

EDIT: Oh ya, yes i have tried Spoil Victor too, 2 times through. No luck.

gestalt · Nov 15, 2006, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

i have attempted this mission 6 times now.
All hench/hero team.
Every single attempt, i had not had ANY deaths until the end fighting Shiro.
The only time my group starts to die, obviously from Impossible Odds.

I consider myself a vary experienced player as i have played since day one of GW and do both PvP and PvE. I have gone through ALL of Nightfall with henchies and heroes, save a couple missions that guildmates did with me. With this experience i have used every possible combination of builds i can think of to shut Shiro down. KD, interrupts, wards, stance breakers, degen, spike dmg, etc etc...

I have tried different setups every time. SS Necro, along with other anti melee hexes. Anti-Melee wards. KD ele spells. KD Hammer warrior. Constant Degen. And several others, all this time using Wild Blow myself to time correctly with his Battle Scars usage. The main problem, as i said, is IO. I can easily get him down to 1/4 life, but as SOON as he starts using IO, his life simply does not drop anymore and my team starts to drop 1 by 1.

So i have tried EVERY counter and build in the book, why can't i kill this guy? Oh that's right, Impossible Odds. 6 times now, 10% moral boost, all blessings from all shrines, Shiro down to 1/4 life, then its over... So far, in this thread, i haven't read any foolproof or solid methods on taking him down when he uses IO. I am sick of repeating this mission and absolutely despise PUGs; So what ARE these so called "Oh, Shiro was so easy" methods?

ugh. cheers!

EDIT: Oh ya, yes i have tried Spoil Victor too, 2 times through. No luck.

SS and SV are not the magic bullet some people say, I had heroes with both my first try when I failed but with me and Koss on Shiro IO killed me too fast although koss and a couple monks survived just barely, but they couldn't do jack to him him alone.

My next try through with a single evasion tank with two stance knockers and postioning everyone else nice and far away was way easier. He couldn't hurt Zenmai that much with IO but he was getting some decent healing from battle scars (probably some of the assasin spikes weren't so great for that part since wild strike would antecede unsuspecting strike but meh w/e), the last quarter was slower but still progressed well enough, I did use SV but I think we had enough damage without it or at the very least sub some other DPS in and the fact that he was only life stealing from one guy made the healing not so bad. Besides Zenmai never went below 50% as my tank so I doubt for the last 10% SV was triggering. It probably let me wear him down nice and fast initially, but the important part where he uses IO was just Zenmai owning him and outlasting him.

SV and SS are nice but they aren't a magic bullet or anything. It all depends on how you do it.

Calahan · Nov 15, 2006, 08:00 AM // 08:00

did it with henchment adn heroes cos no one wanted take a Dervish for this mission:/. Its easy, pull him out to the gate and pown, i've took an necro with spoil victor monk protektor witch PS, many many hexes and ancestors visage. Mesmer hench interupts prity good and my ele owned him with meteors

. Took me 3 days to gat my build right, but have no masters :/