Curse

Mervil · Dec 21, 2011, 10:20 PM // 22:20

So, I've been thinking: since guild wars downloads content on the first time you see it, could this fact be used to tell if a wintersday chest has a mini polar bear in it? Uninstall guild wars, re-install it, and enter the snowman dungeon wintersday quest over and over, until you see it download some content? Assuming of course, nobody has a mini polar bear out in town while doing this...

I've been trying this this year, and the game has been downloading content upon entering, for example, the first time the chest contains a peppermint candy cane or a rainbow candy cane. Would the game do the same for a mini polar bear, or is that something downloaded with the initial game download?

Along the same lines, I've been using my router webpage to monitor bandwidth usage, thinking (hoping) that I'll be able to tell that I've spawned a mpb-containing chest because I'll see higher download rates than usual (owing to the fact that assumedly, the mpb--being animated and having sounds--will require download of larger files)?

Is this flawed? Should I just go back to regular farming?

End · Dec 21, 2011, 10:31 PM // 22:31

It will be thrown off by the fact that any mpb in town will cause it to download. 2 it's a pain in the ass.

Other methods may exist but their actual use is questionable at best.

Sagittario · Dec 21, 2011, 10:44 PM // 22:44

5,000 times zone with still no guarantee of drop? Man you're mad!

Acehole2006 · Dec 21, 2011, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Even if all this talk was true which I dont think it is, but say it was, i would actually laugh out loud if the time they actually knew it was in the chest they lagged out and got snowballed tp death hahaha, that would be vintage.

snowman relic · Dec 21, 2011, 11:16 PM // 23:16

While were on the subject of the chest and loading does it seem to anyone else that the item where the mpb may spawn's spot loads a little slower? I get the other 4 and that one appears seconds after

drkn · Dec 21, 2011, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by End

Other methods may exist but their actual use is questionable at best.

Every method and idea, despite how shady and far from actual working, should be posted and discussed. If there is, in fact, a viable way to predict the drop of a polar bear upon entering the zone, and there are people abusing it, it's in the best interest of the community to expose all those 'tactics', as well as spread rumours about possibilities, in order to fight down the artificially gimped prices. That said, the only people who know about any practical ways of cheating in the case of farming polar bears - if there are any - are those who benefit from such actions, thus shall stay silent.
Same thing as with forming parties bigger than 8 - though in case of that cheat, at least, some screenshots 'leaked', some time ago, even though they might be fake - no way to tell without spreading the exact way to reproduce it, publicly, and inform ANet of exploit so that they might fix the hole and make people play fair.

On topic, though, it might be a viable way if (1) you had quite slow connection (to actually notice the extra content downloaded) and (2) if you avoided any people after installing the fresh copy of the game (so that no one can use their bear, making your client download it). The only way would be to conduct a research on bigger scale, with more people interested in this method, sharing their insight and results, so that a viable answer might be provided; theorising won't do.

Bristlebane · Dec 21, 2011, 11:53 PM // 23:53

I guess another 'method' would be to have a little script or batch file to just keep comparing the new dat file with a previous copy, noting the size. So instead of tracking time difference during download which can vary due to lag and bandwidth.. size should be more predictable.

Now let's take it a step further. By knowing the .dat format and using some form of editor to delete all highly wanted items that might spawn, and to stay in a less populated district.. it should be easier to notice any new items downloaded.

In fact if this is the case.. it's a process that could be automated. Say you had 10 accounts that just kept rezoning/reloading automatically based on the increased size of the .dat file, 5000 zonings would be reduced to more managable numbers.

I'm NOT encouraging any of this.. all I am is following drkn's reasoning, that the sooner any possible exploit would be discovered, the faster it could be corrected. One possible fix for Anet would be to force the client to always download the most rare items thus making it impossible to predict contents.

Spiritz · Dec 21, 2011, 11:53 PM // 23:53

A flaw i saw with the reckoning is thus - if this was to be true then it would mean every chest or ecto drop could be manipulated.
And to quote someone who had the right idea "Random means Random and nothing less"

For me the slight differences in loading could mean several things - many of us live by the -image rule and after every update we run -image which we are told downloads all the data in 1 go rather than long load screens when we go somewhere thats either new or had a change - ie shing jea and canthan new yr decorations.
Its sort of been shown that we -image ppl will load new areas faster than someone who hasnt - i can recall when eotn had its preview event , i had done the -image a few days earlier as anet did an update.Out of 4 human team members - i loaded first and the 3 others took several mins to load up and join.The difference was that i had the changes preloaded and the 3 others had to download whilst live that map and tbh the next few maps as well.

RTSFirebat · Dec 21, 2011, 11:55 PM // 23:55

I don't think this would work. This method goes by the idea that the GW download doesn't already contain the data for all mini pets, or at least the Polar Bear.

First we need to confirm if a tiny bit downloads after first seeing a polar bear.

But my best guess is the data needed for each mini is likely minor and already included in the main .dat file download anyway, and thus invalidating this method.

Or I could be wrong :P

Ariena Najea · Dec 22, 2011, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Seems to me that any researchers on this subject should be using a dead district (Europe Polish anyone?) and should confirm that minipets require their own download. To test, have a player first enter in with a rare minipet (anything Grawl level or higher is best) and watch for background downloading. Next, have the non-imaged player leave the district and have the assistant fetch an alternative pet and display it. Then have the non-imaged player return and see if there is anything to download in the loading screen.

As RTSFirebat notes, any research of this type is making tons of assumptions.

Reformed · Dec 22, 2011, 12:49 AM // 00:49

If the fix was in on these you'd see a lot more trade activity. The only exploit is having the luck or the patience involved to do as many runs as it takes to get one. You'd be better off doing the runs for drops OP as items for your own title or things to sell. If you get the drop in the process then good on you and if not you still make some money for your trouble. It's a win-win.

Max37 · Dec 22, 2011, 01:00 AM // 01:00

This definitely would not work. The client has zero knowledge of what chest drops will be until you use the chest and the server sends the item info. Mini pets use the same models as their normal size counterparts and the client wouldn't need to load the model until you actually took it out (or someone in the same district as you took it out).

ChrisCo · Dec 22, 2011, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max37

This definitely would not work. The client has zero knowledge of what chest drops will be until you use the chest and the server sends the item info. Mini pets use the same models as their normal size counterparts and the client wouldn't need to load the model until you actually took it out (or someone in the same district as you took it out).

Im with you on this, I dont think the mini would load or download the file when you start the dungeon. it would be when you open the chest.

In the end if you dont feel like doing the quest 15k times or whatever it is ... dont do it. Its meant to be fun, not a grind for an uber rare item.

Chthon · Dec 22, 2011, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max37

This definitely would not work. The client has zero knowledge of what chest drops will be until you use the chest and the server sends the item info.

This is not correct. Go back and search the guru threads posted around the last time that new design-a-weapon item skins were added to end chests. You will see discussion about precisely this phenomenon.

When you think about this from a design perspective, it only makes sense. The client needs to be able to render the item as it pops out of the chest and falls to the ground. It's not going to be able to do that if it isn't told that it needs to download the frame and the texture until the same moment it has to start the rendering. It needs to get that data in advance.

Unfortunately, I seem to recall that it downloaded the new data for every item potentially in the end chest the first time you entered the level with the end chest, regardless of what the actual drops ended up being. I'm not completely sure on this, so you can hope my memory's wrong on this detail.

Also, the data for the mini is probably small, so you'd probably never notice it by feeling your download time. The dat "recycles" space, so comparing file size might not be sufficient either. You'd have to do a diff or a search to be sure.

Max37 · Dec 22, 2011, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

When you think about this from a design perspective, it only makes sense. The client needs to be able to render the item as it pops out of the chest and falls to the ground. It's not going to be able to do that if it isn't told that it needs to download the frame and the texture until the same moment it has to start the rendering. It needs to get that data in advance.

A good deal of items, mini pets included, don't have unique drop models but instead use the generic red bag model. Again, the actual creature model would not be needed until you took the mini pet out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Unfortunately, I seem to recall that it downloaded the new data for every item potentially in the end chest the first time you entered the level with the end chest, regardless of what the actual drops ended up being. I'm not completely sure on this, so you can hope my memory's wrong on this detail.

Whether or not the model for a particular item is loaded when you enter the area it is obtained in is irrelevant to the chest. The client doesn't know if it's going to drop or not at that point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Also, the data for the mini is probably small, so you'd probably never notice it by feeling your download time. The dat "recycles" space, so comparing file size might not be sufficient either. You'd have to do a diff or a search to be sure.

The most that would need to be loaded for the item itself is the icon and possibly text.

Chthon · Dec 22, 2011, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max37

A good deal of items, mini pets included, don't have unique drop models but instead use the generic red bag model. Again, the actual creature model would not be needed until you took the mini pet out.

Regardless of what the "item on the ground" model is, the client needs to have it. Moreover, it needs to know it has it. Even if the model is reused, the client still needs a definition file for the item telling it which model to reuse. There would still be a few bytes present in a .dat file that had displayed or was prepared to display a MPB that wouldn't otherwise be there.

Quote:

Whether or not the model for a particular item is loaded when you enter the area it is obtained in is irrelevant to the chest. The client doesn't know if it's going to drop or not at that point.

If my memory is correct, then you are correct. OP imagines a situation where the model would be downloaded upon entering the zone only if it the chest was going to drop that item. This is not impossible. In GW, the loot generation PRNG is seeded using the zone-in time, so it is certainly possible for the server to know in advance what your party's chest drops will be* and instruct your clients to download data for new items only if they are going to drop, and doing it that way would conserve bandwidth, albeit at the cost of leaking information. It could work that way. It's just that I remember it not working that way. I'm some 80% sure you got data for all possible items downloaded without regard to the actual drops. I'm also some 80% sure the observation and discussion took place following the update that added the emerald blade, so search guru threads around that timeframe if you really care to pin it down.

*Aside: While I think this was just a design flaw on a-net's part, it's not entirely crazy to do things this way. For instance, some years ago when I worked briefly for a company that made video slots, the outcome for every random event had to be decided and saved to non-volatile memory before the end-user was given any indication that the random event was going to occur, lest a problematic end-user (who was usually a casino night employee with the key to the machine's cabinet, access to the power cord, and hours upon hours of no one watching him) find some clever way to corrupt state in exactly the right way at exactly the right time. I don't think that's necessary within a client-server model, but maybe someone at a-net does. (Or maybe it was just a design flaw.)

Kunder · Dec 22, 2011, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by End

It will be thrown off by the fact that any mpb in town will cause it to download. 2 it's a pain in the ass.

Other methods may exist but their actual use is questionable at best.

Write protect your gw.dat. What happens then?

Ariena Najea · Dec 22, 2011, 04:51 AM // 04:51

I just remembered an old thread with some interesting findings:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/d...=drops+jokanur

The general consensus of this thread was that the monster drops were determined when the player entered the area. Presumably this applies to chest drops as well, so it is possible that the resources for the MPB would have to be loaded during the loading screen.

MithranArkanere · Dec 22, 2011, 05:04 AM // 05:04

As far as I can tell, the things that get loaded when you first enter an area are slightly different depending on an the area.

In outposts, inventory icons, armors, miniatures, tonics and any other model and texture that is not part of the 'core' PvP set and is not 'fixed' to the area (like models NPCs in the area have) are loaded 'on demand' when you first see them.

But when you enter an explorable, the armors, pets and weapons of the party members are loaded in the loading screen of the area, not on the fly.
But if they change armors, weapons or show a miniature, use a summon or a tonic, or open a trade panel with you with items you've never seen before those are loaded on the fly again.

And on top of that, the client is continuously downloading in the background. I don't know what is given priority when the client is downloading this way. The next area? Core content?

So I assume this would not work, and the client will download the bear just the first time you actually see the icon or the model. Not when loading the area.

Kunder · Dec 22, 2011, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Whether or not its preloaded by the game, tools exist to manually delete individual records from gw.dat, I believe?