Curse

Leighis Dileas · May 29, 2005, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Hi there,

I can honestly say it is very frustrating fighting in tombs by now. 99% of the guild groups or better organized parties seem to use a team build with at least 3 air elementalists in it.

I just lost in the 5th round again against a group using 2 monks and 5 air eles. I mean its just getting extreme. They had so much damage output, no ward against elemental damage, no protection monk could keep the group alive.

In almost every round I fight there with my guild and friends we meet groups which use those heavily air ele concentrated builds.

I did not find any thread about it, so I'll just throw in this question here : What are your strategies against those air ele groups ?

Cause this extreme concentration and dependability on one class in the build is really killing alot of the fun in PvP ...

~Leighis

Darc.Syde · May 29, 2005, 03:54 AM // 03:54

protective spirit...

kimchipoisen · May 29, 2005, 04:14 AM // 04:14

protective spirit...

Valerius · May 29, 2005, 04:29 AM // 04:29

protective spirit...

Vermilion Okeanos · May 29, 2005, 05:04 AM // 05:04

If they do it right, you got no time for protective spirit...

and of course... even if you do made it... they just use enchantment removal and throw that protective spirit out of the window... enchantment removal should be a duh... (Don't remember ever meeting a team with spike but without enchantment removal that is guild made)

spell breaker and obsidian flesh is the best way against it... with downside of course...

a good offense is the best defense... see if you can get some heavy energy denial to shut them up...

Spike build are tough to break if they are very well coordinated... since there aren't alot that can be done against spikes, if you get focus on anti-spike... you would probably just lose easily against other team...

Getting them to mess up on their coordination would be a good idea... try to mess around with wall and such. Use the terrian.

Jana · May 29, 2005, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Sorry, I have to agree with the majority...

protective spirit

... and yes, you have MORE than enough time to keep this going even if removed, since removal of enchants do NOT have infinte range.

No issues with this so far.

Jana

Vermilion Okeanos · May 29, 2005, 08:14 AM // 08:14

No, you do not even have time to put it on your monk before they die. Unless you tell me your monk can instantly put protective spirit right back on you under 1 sec after it get remove... which I probably won't believe you.... Because he/she has to know it is gone first.

The only thing you should be glad about is... not that many guild use it yet.

Corack · May 29, 2005, 08:24 AM // 08:24

simple don't let you monks get in range of their casters use you tanks to take the damage that they can mitigate down and suvive while being healed. eventually they will run out of energy and its game over.

Xellos · May 29, 2005, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Many people immitate, but no one can duplicate. 6 player HoH FTW.

EDIT: Spam protective spirit. Like, spam it. Enchantments are currently still abusable. So abuse it. Fear Me works real well in numbers, but hitting is a problem. Protective spirit has to be one of the most rigged things ever imo. Enchantment removal is not even close to being good enough to compete with it. And energy denial is only capable through mesmers. Fear Me only works if you can actually hit people. I think the most important thing people need to realize is, the air ele build requires alot of teamwork and skill, far more then people think it does. The teams you usually lose to are counterable by protective spirit without even thinking. Calling, positioning, everything comes into play in the air ele build because spike damage needs to count. It's all about forsight and such. I haven't seen one team that can replicate mine in terms of efficiency for air elementalist build, but that's probably because most of the good teams are asleep when I'm on (nightshift job).

Vermilion Okeanos · May 29, 2005, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Many people do not understand that when you are facing a giant spike team build... the true thing that is in play is skills, not build. It is quite simple to think up the build, but in actual excution would be harder.

First thing first... You will have to know they are a spike build... usually they only need 2 air ele to do 390+ damage on you within 3 sec after you get shutdown.

That means before you encounter them, you must know they are probably air type... or else you will almost never be able to spam protective spirit before one of your member die...

I suppose the best counter is fast rezz... If your team can rezz the person who had just die after 3 sec and drag it out... you still can win.

btw, Spike build aren't that great in HoH... as you need AoE there, and the only AoE they got is probably chain lightning (unless they switch their build and are now Air/Fire)

Paine · May 29, 2005, 07:56 PM // 19:56

The perfect counter here is my ME / MO!

Guess what? Fast casting here!
Try to get their energy to 0.
Without energy, elementalists are nothing. Yes, nothing.

* Protective Spirit
* Diversion, takes 47 secs to recharge their skill *LOL*
* Backfire of course, they lose 129+ dmg if they cast a spell
* Mantra of lightning, 45% dmg reduce against lightning spells
* Blackout, use this ONLY if it's an emergency!
* Spell breaker, do I have to say more ?
* Arcane Thievery

That build will make those Air Eles into ashes, just wait and see =)
But there are few good mesmer players out there

rii · May 29, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Problem paine, is thats a very specific build. Ok, it owns eles. Kudos.. what if a warrior comes in your face? Say you design for an entire team of air eles, its not unheard of.. What if on the way to the HoH you meet a pug of wa/mo? Thats not unheard of either, in fact its more common. So they run in your face and go for a sever artery gash combo... what do you do? Nothing. Those skills youve listed make up 7 of your eight skills. Theres no res there so lets assume thats a res in the final slot. Well, thats that. You get owned. Whatsmore, any competent ele should have energy management, so that 0 just doesnt come. If it does, its either cause your whole team is on him, or hes just used all his energy of his own intiative to deal some damage ja? Either way is not good for you.

My advice is either what i said above, or equip your whole team with just spell breaker or obsidian flesh. The rest is a bit of a moot point after that. That way you can prepare for other things like warriors.

Darc.Syde · May 29, 2005, 08:38 PM // 20:38

prot spirit owns any type of spike dmg.... see backfire go down to 40~ dmg instead of its norm..

the fact that it is spammable makes it viable even with enchantment removal.

Goonter · May 29, 2005, 08:59 PM // 20:59

a professional straight ranger build that can time concussion shot.

Paine · May 29, 2005, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Problem paine, is thats a very specific build. Ok, it owns eles. Kudos.. what if a warrior comes in your face? Say you design for an entire team of air eles, its not unheard of.. What if on the way to the HoH you meet a pug of wa/mo? Thats not unheard of either, in fact its more common. So they run in your face and go for a sever artery gash combo... what do you do? Nothing. Those skills youve listed make up 7 of your eight skills. Theres no res there so lets assume thats a res in the final slot. Well, thats that. You get owned. Whatsmore, any competent ele should have energy management, so that 0 just doesnt come. If it does, its either cause your whole team is on him, or hes just used all his energy of his own intiative to deal some damage ja? Either way is not good for you.

My advice is either what i said above, or equip your whole team with just spell breaker or obsidian flesh. The rest is a bit of a moot point after that. That way you can prepare for other things like warriors.

1. Didn't you think I already knew that? *lol*
2. They asked for an elementalist killer so they got one.
3. My build is currently a supporter just like monks, they heal, I own eles.
4. By the way, warriors can't use their "Artery combos" since I got Blackout.
5. I just gave my two cents against an elementalist killer.

rii · May 29, 2005, 09:29 PM // 21:29

My comment on artery combos was in relation to backfire and the like. and while it is a support (1. Didn't you think I already knew that? *lol*

) if your only planning on one of these build per group, you wouldnt be able to combat large amounts of air eles at once. Youve got 2 ish down, but after that theres still potentially up to 6 eles there :S
Also, they asked for an elementalist killer, but that build raises new problems, so theres not really much point in giving an idea like that.

taion · May 29, 2005, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Well, backfire and diversion and such are good against casters in general. A PUG full of W/Mos probably consists of, among other things, rather mediocre players, so who really cares about them? On the other hand, burst teams generally have at least a little organisation and skill, so they're more dangerous just in general.

Minwanabi · May 30, 2005, 05:12 AM // 05:12

As a general rule, a well coordinated ele spike build will give you exactly 3 seconds to respond. There are two steps you should always be prepared to take if you see multiple air eles. Naturally, these require as much coordination as the spike build does, so if you're playing in some random PUG, don't expect to survive. Anyways, the ele spike build is started, in pretty much every case, by the spell lightning surge. This gives you 3 seconds to mount a defense. The defense should consist of a prot spirit being dropped first, followed by a reversal of fortune right after. The RoF is there to act as bait for any single enchant removals, and if it isn't removed, to eat the surge. The prot spirit makes the spike itself laughable. Now, the downside to a build like this is a well timed rend, that hits 1-2 secs after surge, but before the spike. The key to this, is unfortunately not preperation, but rather to always have enemy necros marked out and covered. Rend is a 2 second cast time spell, meaning it's incredibly easy to interrupt, and there's no excuse for not doing so. The same applies to Lingering Curse, Well of the Profane, and Nature's Renewal. Single removals, such as chillblains, inspired, drain, etc, will just take RoF.

th15 · May 30, 2005, 10:09 AM // 10:09

I wouldn't go with diversion for anti ele. It's more of an anti-warrior skill.

It's possible to play a general energy denial mes. Bring guilt to shut down eles/necros, bring backfire to shut down prot monks (the reversal/guardian spammin sort) and arcane conundrum for monks so that its possible to interupt them.

I'd agree that protective spirit is the way to go for anti spike builds. Reversal is also feasible. All ele spells have a moderate cast time, if you see them hitting glyph or running out together with the warriors, it's a dead giveaway they're about to hit something hard.

However, it's not particularly intelligent to simply try to repair the damage their spikers do. That's going about it the wrong way. What you want to do is keep your vulnerable monks behind and have your warriors gank those eles one by one. Sure those 3 air eles will drop one of you monks leaving you little or no response time but at the same time, a coordinated group of warriors can drop their eles just as fast.

The bottom line is that a lot of monks tend to come too far infront. This isn't entirely their fault, most of the time your own warriors are stupidly chasing some enemy monk WAAAY behind their lines. The best solution is to stick together and position your players smart. Keep something between their offensive players and your defensive players. Ward Against Foe or the ele AoE snares are particularly important. If you claim that the same works the other way around then I'd point out that the only snare Air magic has is gale, which they can't sustain very long.

shazbawt · May 30, 2005, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Spell Breaker. Air eles single target, as soon as you see the target cast it. Most guilds won't realize they are failing until after the 2nd spell. It gives you time to kill someone. 5 Air eles can't take a target down in 1 hit. Switch between protective spirit and spell breaker.