Curse

Trenchsoul · Jun 03, 2005, 06:04 AM // 06:04

I've been saying this from the point of PvE and PUG (as the original post was directed towards.)

I've yet to hear anyone on the other side of this arguement refute that there is a shortage of monks, and groups are going to need every availible monk to be healing or protection based since there is always going to be a dozen other people who can deal damage just as effectively. This goes for pickup groups and PvE, not groups that spend a ton of time planning and scheming. That is an entirely different game and any arguements directed towards me should respond to PvE and PUG and not GvG or "pro" games.

Weezer_Blue · Jun 03, 2005, 07:52 AM // 07:52

I'm a smiter too. If I hear one more person write "i'm not getting healed" in all caps after I said "i'm a smiter" when I entered the party... several times... i'm going to go f***ing mad!

john little · Jun 03, 2005, 08:13 AM // 08:13

I think a lot of the time it's the fact that a aparty usually has to wait quite a while for a dedicated healing character, and when they don't get one they get annoyed.

I had to play my e/mo as a healer the other night, worked really well with another monk (completed fissure, best PUG i've ever played with). I think more e/mo's should be prepared to go healer if there are a shortage of monks, the energy store means that they can be just as effective.

But.. if i'm prepared to change my build to help my team out, why can't a smiting monk? If there are monks everywhere fair enough, you shouldn't have to, but if there is a dire shortage of healing or protection monks i think you have to put teams ahead of yourself.

Kryzoth · Jun 03, 2005, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Ok, I'll refute it, Trenchsoul. I was in a pickup group for a mission last night with me(20 N/Me), a friend (20 W/Mo), and the other 4 were like 13 W/Mo, 17 E/Me, 14 R/Me, and a 14 W/E. I had one simple rule for hitting large groups of mobs, especially with that many people in a group likely to be in melee; "Get me a corpse, you get a well of blood." Almost all deaths in that group came about because the 13 W/Mo and the 17 E/Me didn't know what they were doing, and regularly pissed off multiple groups of mobs at once, or ran ahead while everyone else was healing in a well of blood. I don't know if the 13 W/Mo had any healing spells, and my friend the 20 W/Mo only had 1 monk skill being used on other, Restore Life.

I'd much rather have a smiting monk and a group full of people able to mostly heal themselves than a group of 6-8 always looking for the monk to heal them. And yes, that's in PuG's and PvE

Acce · Jun 03, 2005, 12:59 PM // 12:59

I think you'll do yourself a favor if you tell ppl upfront when joining a new group that you're a smiting monk. I guess the issue is if a group invites one monk and then the monk doesn't heal... they get a little upset when they discover that they're lacking a 'proper' healer.

I guess this would apply to all classes, like telling them upfront what you're about in order to improve the groups effeciency, but it's particulary important with a monk as the 'default' monk is most ppl's mind is a healer.

BTW, i would change my character because some random guy with no life think you play your character 'the wrong way'. Play as you enjoy it yourself and be happy.

fleeb · Jun 03, 2005, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Seriously, when everybody dies and blames the monk, it most likely IS their fault. No, you don't need everyone to self-heal. No, you don't need 3 monks in a party. No, you don't need to be a jerk and have a "DNH" list. You need to play your role properly.

I was with you up until this last paragraph.

When everybody dies and blames the monk, it may or may not be the monk's fault. It depends upon the group, and whether everyone's playing styles match.

I can keep everyone alive *if* they pay attention to some startup advice that I try to give prior to each mission with a pick-up group. Unfortunately, altogether too often, the group runs off before I can even explain my build. In these cases, two or more monks are needed, because the group dynamics suck.

You would be surprised at how few people really understand how Healing Seed works, for example. Or how they can go ahead and wade into the hell of battle with that hex on them because I'll Smite Hex *and* Zealot Fire together for over 100 damage against undead (this was glorious to behold the first time I did it), and heal them while doing it.

I think, ultimately, this is a matter of playing style. Does the monk's playing style match that of the rest of the group? My style requires a little more thinking, but less people. And, of course, I have to recharge on occasion, before everyone draws the next huge crowd of creatures into the fray.

Still, despite my absolute detestation for a lot of pickup group's playing style, I have *never* just dropped out of a battle without an explaination (the only times I've left were for real-world issues, not because I hated their tactics).

Red Locust · Jun 03, 2005, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbodan

Red Locust, I'm curious as to what your Monk build is like? Would you mind posting it? I'm finding my monk having a harder and harder time healing as she levels up, especially now in 8 person groups when I'm the only monk trying to keep everyone alive.

Orison of healing
Word of healing (cast when they go below 50% for optimal use)
Reversal of fortune (on someone being hit hard)
Healing breeze (16 health/sec. is nothing to sneeze at)
Healing seed (keeps the warriors alive)
Life bond (50% dmg reduction is very nice)
Shielding hands (used to be essence bond, not anymore thanks to update)
Restore life / Rebirth (or Heal Party if most other people bring rez)

Points distributed among healing/protection/divine. I sometimes make adjustments as needed.

It's quite a simple build.

Let's say 4 teammates aggro some mobs. You look for the life bar that drops the fastest and do a healing seed + healing breeze on him (preferably on a warrior). Nearby warriors should be safe with this. Then Look for the next person getting hit and throw a life bond + shielding hands on him. It's basically fire and forget. Then you turn your attantion to the other 2 or so people that are getting hit and spam orison/word/RoF and the occasional breeze on them, it's quite easy with the 5 energy costs and considering that the 2 people taking the most heat are already covered by enchantments.

With regards to healing seed and people not being familiar with it, I just encourage people to use the call target function and often call targets myself, it keeps the warriors bunched up for seed to do its thing.

This is strictly a PvE build, but it works very well and keeps people alive. The big thing is to use enchantments. Too often have I seen monks just use heal spells and run themselves out of energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fleeb

I was with you up until this last paragraph.

Well, when i made that statement, I was referring to a party that at least has some common sense. Obviously, when someone goes and aggroes half the map (as was my case in Elona) or does something equally stupid, it's not the monk's fault.
And although it's true that people should give us time to recharge, playing style does not have to be perfectly aligned for the group to do well. I've gone with many different groups: W/Mo groups, no-tank groups, caster-heavy groups, all have very different playing styles, and managed just as well with either group. You can't rely too heavily on coordination and understanding while in PuGs

Zilm · Jun 03, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48

And the reason people may have a negative attitude about Smiters is they have never seen it done well in PvE! The combination of Balthar's Aura and Zealots Fire alone can be amazing to watch. Villany is at least the one chance to bring a smiter.

My monk has 12 Heal, 11 Smite and 10 Divine (I'll get flamed I'm sure for no Protection by some one). This allows me the flexibility to go either way, full healing as 99.9% of the groups expect or I can go farming and sometimes enjoy the rare chance when a Smiter is "allowed" on a mission.

I understand the "Healing Shortage", so please don't take it the wrong way. I am a healing monk in PvE. It's just a point of view about the different aspects of the class that are not fully understood by those that have not seen this in PvE. When you see all the solo farming video's, what's the spell set? Monk: smite and heal

Keesa · Jun 03, 2005, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

There is nothing wrong with smiting monk, but there's dire need for primary healer right now. It's like in a great epidemic, with shortage of doctors, every M.D. needs to pitch in, for the good of everyone. So a smiting monk should try to play a healing monk for a while to help your PUG's, at same time learning the intricacy of healing.

We are not like being in an epidemic.

Not all M.D.s are useful in epidemics, anyway; a trained nurse is far more vital than a podiatrist in that case. I would rather have a prot/smite monk who knew what he was doing and put some thought into his class than a monk who loads up his skill bar with healing spells and then goes OOM after the first 10 seconds in a fight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

And after you ascend and don't need PUG's anymore, you can go back playing smiting monk for your guild. That's why GW is great is its flexibility. Remember you are there for your team, not yourself; so if your team needs a healer, play one for them.

... if your team needs a healer, why not go roll one yourself? No? Not as much fun as the class you chose?

Come to think of it, why IS there such a shortage of healers?

Perhaps because it's often one of the most unappreciated classes around (rangers not withstanding) in spite of your skill or experience?

Perhaps because it's no fun spending your money and time on a class, only to have a bunch of people who have nothing but their own interests at heart tell you how to play the game in which you've invested your money and time?

Perhaps because monks may want to explore ALL of the skill branches of our class, but other people say we're stupid and selfish if we use more than two out of the three?
...

JoDiamonds · Jun 03, 2005, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trenchsoul

Excuse me while I go make an E/W that doesn't use any elementalist skills and join some PvP groups, because I can play however I want. What a ridiculous thought.

Huh. I must be some kind of ridiculous player.

I've always been welcomed with open arms when playing my ElMo as a pure healer, without any Elementalist skills. Sure, I had points in Energy Storage, but that's not what you said. I didn't have any points in any other Elementalist attributes, and zero Elementalist skills in my bar.

No one has ever complained that I didn't rain fire down on my opponents.

As an aside, an E/W with just a couple Earth skills could be a fine tank. Possibly inferior to a similar W/E, but if you demand that everyone be perfect, then you are living in a fantasy world. OK, a DIFFERENT fantasy world than everyone else.

Quote:

You can play however you want, but that doesn't mean you should bother other people with your cerebral diarrhea that you call a "build." No matter how you look at it, some things just don't work, and some classes are meant to do certain jobs.

There's the "meant" again. But let's look forward:

Quote:

Sure you can make a smiting monk, but that isn't necessary to anyone. Groups need healers, and you're just wasting everyone's time by denying that monks are healers.

They can play it "how they see fit," they just won't be doing it in my groups. People are free to be stupid, but not around me.

Fine. I do hope to never be in a group with you.

You demand perfection and a lack of stupidity. Since those are pipe dreams, I hope you enjoy playing with henchmen.

All that said, there are LOTS of players who aren't that interested in perfect, stereotypical builds. They want to experiment (because who knows what "perfect" is anyway?) Or they have a (gasp) character concept that they like and run with it. Making a R/W who excels in Wilderness Survival and Swordsmanship because I really like Aragorn isn't necessarily going to be a very good build, but I might very well enjoy it more than a more "optimal" build.

Whatever optimizes fun for an individual player is what they should play.

In the end, I agree completely with your conclusion: You shouldn't play with people who have a different idea of fun than you, because neither one of you will like the experience.

But you can't assume that other people have the same idea of fun that you do, and probably most don't. (That's true for everyone, mind you. I'm not saying that any one else's idea of fun is the majority or even most common. People like all kinds of different things.) So it's definitely smart to ask when forming PuGs.

JoDiamonds · Jun 03, 2005, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

I don't fault groups for thinking you should be healing if you're a Monk. You should be. The profession is designed to be a healer. Smiting is certainly a viable line, but not as the only line for a Monk primary.

Everyone should enjoy the game whatever way they want to. You can't be sure of what Arena Net wanted with its designs, and even if you could, even Arena Net can't decide how I'm going to enjoy the game. They can try, but if I can't enjoy it how I want to, they likely lose a customer.

It's extremely reasonable for a monk who isn't a healer to say so when looking for a group, but also slightly unreasonable for other people to assume Monks are healers.

Would you assume that a Necromancer is going to help heal with Well of Blood? Or that they will help stop casters using Curses? If not, then why assume a Monk is going to do anything in particular? Seems like other people are setting themselves up for disappointment too, not just the smiting monk.

=-p

Red Locust · Jun 03, 2005, 09:15 PM // 21:15

I'm curious, if a Mo/W only takes smiting out of the 4 monk attributes, I assume he wants to use zealot's fire. What spells does he spam in order to get the most damage out of zealot's? Heal/Prot spells are the most spammable ally-targetted spells around, wouldn't your zealot be doing a lot more damage with them?

Trenchsoul · Jun 03, 2005, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kryzoth

Ok, I'll refute it, Trenchsoul. I was in a pickup group for a mission last night with me(20 N/Me), a friend (20 W/Mo), and the other 4 were like 13 W/Mo, 17 E/Me, 14 R/Me, and a 14 W/E. I had one simple rule for hitting large groups of mobs, especially with that many people in a group likely to be in melee; "Get me a corpse, you get a well of blood." Almost all deaths in that group came about because the 13 W/Mo and the 17 E/Me didn't know what they were doing, and regularly pissed off multiple groups of mobs at once, or ran ahead while everyone else was healing in a well of blood. I don't know if the 13 W/Mo had any healing spells, and my friend the 20 W/Mo only had 1 monk skill being used on other, Restore Life.

I'd much rather have a smiting monk and a group full of people able to mostly heal themselves than a group of 6-8 always looking for the monk to heal them. And yes, that's in PuG's and PvE

This isn't evidence to refute that few people want to play monks and that there is a shortage of monks. All you've "proved" is that two overleveled players can rush lower level players through missions without a dedicated healer, which with a w/mo you can solo most anything for lowbies. Try again.

Wolf89 · Jun 03, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Sorry you guys are dumb you take stuff to much if someone says its cause of the monk say yeh I dont heal dumbasses.

RipperRoo · Jun 03, 2005, 10:40 PM // 22:40

I find myself drawn to the Monk class for one simple reason, job satisfaction. I'm the kind of Monk that casts Heal Other on the random NPCs you meet, just to keep them alive. I take great pride in keeping people alive, and I even appologise when someone rushes off into a huge group of enemies and gets munched.
Being a Monk is a very rewarding job.
The best kind of party you can be in IMO is one that doesn't assume that a Monk is a god and will keep you all alive no matter what. Beleive it or not, it is actually helpful if you take skills to heal yourself rather than just doing damage!
Basically, if you enjoy healing, heal, if you enjoy smiting, smite, don't let others and their stereotypes drag you into playing a class/style that you don't want to!

Games are designed for fun, if you're not having fun, then something is wrong.
Don't let others get you down and play the way you want to play.

Best idea if you are playing an obscure build, is to make friends, then you can guarantee you will always have someone to party and help you do missions with, rather than standing around being rejected and abused by random strangers.

My 5p.

Eclair · Jun 03, 2005, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

I'm curious, if a Mo/W only takes smiting out of the 4 monk attributes, I assume he wants to use zealot's fire. What spells does he spam in order to get the most damage out of zealot's? Heal/Prot spells are the most spammable ally-targetted spells around, wouldn't your zealot be doing a lot more damage with them?

Non-monk spells such as stances also trigger zealot's fire ^_^

so_cal_forever · Jun 04, 2005, 12:02 AM // 00:02

I don't get some of you guys...

You argue that monks are good for nothing but healing. Then why the hell is the smiting attribute in the game at all? Could the game designers have had it in mind that possibly each class has more than one purpose? Methinks so. And yes, believe it or not, Anet knows better than you.

It's this kind of attitude that makes it so some people cant get into groups. Earlier I saw someone say "LFG with a monk that can actually heal" because the community aspect just doesnt mean anything to some people. If you get a team full of dedicated, mature players, no matter the consitency, it will prove strong and it will get the job done.

edited - No longer aimed at trench, just at whom it may apply to.

Darkest Dawn · Jun 04, 2005, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Posted by ripperoo: I'm the kind of Monk that casts Heal Other on the random NPCs you meet, just to keep them alive.

LOL, I'm with ya. I do the exact same thing!

Trenchsoul · Jun 04, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

So-cal, re-read my posts before you say something, apparently you can't read. I give up trying to argue online, its pointless since no one can read and will interpret things in hostile ways to find excuses to call each other names and acuse them of eating babies.

Neo-LD · Jun 04, 2005, 03:29 AM // 03:29

GW is a game won "with skill, not hours played". Hence, not every build was created equal. Otherwise there would be no strategy. You can enjoy the game however much you want to, but just know that your charcter cant do squat compared to almost any other build. I dont see what so fun about sucking miserably and dying all the time, anyways.