Curse

Treize · May 07, 2005, 02:37 AM // 02:37

I played a monk during the beta. Every mmorpg I have ever played I have been a monk/cleric in, usually chaos is fun but in this game its not. I got bored of people rushing like crazy while im sitting thier trying to conserve energy well enough so no one dies. No one usually gives a crap when the monk get mobbed either. Then when the group dies people wonder why.

I love playing Healers because its always a challenge, just sucks when people suck.

Honour_Shogun · May 07, 2005, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Playing a healer, I do my damndest to keep people alive ( even going so far as to max out my healing, which sits right now at 12 with a +1 healing head scalp) but I get frustrated because I rely mainly on Heal Party ( because it has no range on it. If they are in the party, they get healed for 63 hp. Problem is, if they are taking 80 per hit, then I cannot keep up. I also use reversal of fortune because it allows me to give them a quick heal instead of taking damage. As to Heal Party having a long recharge, huh? It has almost no recharge time, at least for me. Maybe I'm still too new at the game to know about the different skills and their recharge times, but it seems to only rely on how much energy I have. Taking Ele as my secondary now looks like a mistake instead of mesmer because my main problem ( and something people seem not to understand) is that I have access to a set amount of energy. So when it runs out, well, I have to wait for it to regen. Until then, hold on.

To be fair, I have yet to play PVP, so I have no idea how exactly I would do, but what has been said so far is bang on. Don't run into a mob and expect me to only focus on you. If I have to let one die to ensure the group survives, so be it. Especially if they go running into a mob and then get swarmed. Or if I get swarmed, I am going to try to keep myself alive, since I tend to be the only monk in the group.

Just remember, monks are human too. If you slash us, do we not bleed? If you cuss us, do we not get ticked off? If you rush pellmell into a group of 8 enemies, do we try to keep you alive, but if you die, well, we did out best?

Monks are your friends, and your worst enemy can be a po'd monk.

Nur Leah Healer · May 07, 2005, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Indeed, I loved the post. There is next to no problem with Party Heal recharge time. Its slim to none I believe. Unfortunately, I only have something like...38 mana so I can only cast two before I'm out. I've been a healer ever since I can remember, and its rare for me to find people that actually loathe seeing the health bar even below 50%. Well, I hope to see more of you in-game, and hopefully I'm not going against you in PvP. Never once have I ever seen a secondary monk that actually did anything to help me (no offense I'm sure theres some out there, but I have yet to meet them). And indeed, if you piss me off, I definately dont heal you hehhheh. Well, AWAY!!!! Got to get some levels.

-Nur Leah, Monkhood

Lord Malikai · May 07, 2005, 05:41 AM // 05:41

I play a War/Elem and my wife plays a Mo/Me. In PvE I get annoyed because I am a warrior and I am supposed to tank right ? Wrong, all the fooking mobs run right past me and surround my wifes cleric. Never fails. Warriors need some type of agro management or angering skills to pull mobs attentions to them. PvP is a different story, these are people with brains that know to kill the lifeline of the enemy. Mobs are not, most are not very intelligent (60/40 ration I'd say from all the mobs I've seen).

But anyway, love your monk. Stay in range. Protect them as best you can. Thank them after every mission. If you all die, apologize for not breaking through the lines and securing an escape route for the monk :P Offer them all your loot for compensation.

Falconer · May 07, 2005, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Yeah really... don't diss secondary healers.

In both PvP AND PvE... I've seen secondary healers do some really good things.

The value of divine favour is really only in the spam low energy heals, as it can result in a 50% increase in effectiveness for them. But for someone using the big energy heals (such as heal other... +30heal on a 140 point heal to begin with isn't that bad. El/Mo's can do really well in fact because they have some huge energy management skills of their own... EG: Ether Renewal followed by spamming orison/word/dwayna's... all those 5 energy.s.. when you're getting back 8-12 energy per cast... means that you're making energy and refilling your bar. Monk primaries have zero energy management skills (outside of essence bond).

In a PvP build. Placing your actual healers in the secondary can actually work to your advantage if the monk primaries are focused on protection type skills. Because the actual healers are concealed, it can take the other team time to find them. DO NOT overlook the sheer value of confusion on the PvP battlefield where things move fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Malikai

I play a War/Elem and my wife plays a Mo/Me. In PvE I get annoyed because I am a warrior and I am supposed to tank right ? Wrong, all the fooking mobs run right past me and surround my wifes cleric. Never fails. Warriors need some type of agro management or angering skills to pull mobs attentions to them. PvP is a different story, these are people with brains that know to kill the lifeline of the enemy. Mobs are not, most are not very intelligent (60/40 ration I'd say from all the mobs I've seen).

You just need to learn how to tank a little better. Oftentimes as Ra/Mo I find myself on bodyguard duties as well as offense. But there's other techniques you can use as a player.

Body block mobs with your warrior to stop them from getting to the monk for example. Your wife should learn to use you as a pick as well (run by close and snag the mob onto you). (think of basketball and how to block a guy or get a charge called on him).

Also, hamstring/knockdown will get their attention especially if you're wailing on them and they can't get to the monk.

Sausaletus Rex · May 07, 2005, 05:27 PM // 17:27

I'll have to agree that the Ascetic or tattoo armor seems like it's the best choice if you're going to pick from the Monk armors. I'll admit I haven't seen them all in PvE but the PvP options at least are Ascetics (60AL +16/+2), Wanderer's (60+5AL vs. elemental damage +10/+2), and Judge's (60+10AL vs physical, +6/+2).

Wanderer's gives you a grand 5 armor against elemental damage which is something like 6.25% less damage, elemental damage is common but the extra protection is laughable. Judge's is much better as it will give you 10AL (About 12.5% less damage) against a very common type of damage, physical which both Rangers and Warriors will be kicking out but you'll take a hit to your maximum energy for each piece you wear. And Ascetic's is 60AL with a 6 energy bonus (7 if you wear the scalp but who's going to pass up the attribute bonus?). So, you can either get a bit of defense, a bit more defense but shoot yourself in the foot in terms of energy, or a bit less defense and more energy to fuel your casting of things that will defend you much more than the other armor sets. As has been said probably the best way to go is Ascetic's with a Judge's Vestments as you'll then have +12/+2 energy and some solid defense - you could make the same case for Wanderer's Vestments (13 extra energy) there too if you're more worried about Elementalists. But if you had to pick just the one set just why would you go with anything but tattoos?

Quote:

The value of divine favour is really only in the spam low energy heals, as it can result in a 50% increase in effectiveness for them.

I'd argue the real value of DF is with non-healing skills, such as with a Protection Monk. Using high DF alone makes those buffs you'll be tossing around nearly as good as the basic healing for a Healing Monk. And if you use something like Divine Boon to go with them you'll be kicking out a lot of healing and something more besides.

Secondary healers can work and work well. As a longtime proponent of the Elmo, I can tell you that they can be run to good effect in competitive situations. As Falconer points out they an be easily ignored or overlooked to the detriment of the other side. A battle can be a chaotic and confusing thing and while you shouldn't rely on the element of surprise or deception you can take good advantage of it.

Lazarus · May 07, 2005, 06:49 PM // 18:49

This a great thread. There is a lot of useful info on playing a monk along with very valid gripes.

I bought GW just on 5 days ago, and didn't play in any of the test phases. Heck, I didn't even look on-line for in depth game information untill today. My first day was really a just learning the game basics, on the second I started playing.

My first character is a PvE Monk/Necro and while he doesn't play exactly the way I first thought he would, he does a great job at keeping his party alive.

At first I was frustrated at not getting the support a healer should have from his party. I was relying on my Necro skills to keep me alive and healing my party as best I could, but that changed on about my fourth attempt to complete one of the early missions. The party that came to me needed a healer and asked me to join. I noticed that they all were members of the same guild and thought to myself "I hope these aren't some guys that think they are the bomb just because they started a guild". Luckily that was not the case. They all had good attitudes were willing to share what they knew with out being snide to a n00b. That's not all, either. These guys took such good care of me that I only used my necro skills to complement their offense. I was able to do a lot more healing that way. After a while I asked them "How do I get one of those cool capes?" and they invited me to join.

Now I am 14th lvl and due to a few choice items, have a 12 in healing skills and an 8 divine favor. My necro curses are almost unused when I play with them. There have been times when I was the only monk in a 6 person party and kept them all going, just because they keep me alive.

So my point is a simple one: Do not ask what your Monk can do for you, but ask what you can do for your Monk. As long as you both remain flexible and work as a team victory will be yours.

Lazarus

Mimu · May 07, 2005, 08:03 PM // 20:03

A good post, I am not a monk but unfortunately I have seen a few of these things happening..

However, if a primary monk is going to charge directly into a mob then complain when they die.. (as has happened in a few PUG's I have had the misfortune to quest with.) I will have absolutely no sympathy for their cause, so it does work both ways.

Elurian · May 07, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Guys think about this.... E/Mos have to use heal other which is 10e to reach the same amt of HP I heal with orision right now I dont even have favor maxed out (healing is close to it) and I heal for 60 + 35(divine favor) + 58(divine boon) Thats 148 off of a 5e "spam" heal change the skill from orision to heal other and I heal for 151 + 35 + 58 thats 244hp per way more than any E/Mo can heal I'm not saying they arent helpful and you should ALWAYS have at least 2 healers in the group one of which is a primary

But your right the real power of divine favor is when you have boon running and you are mending conditions/removing hexes You are doing 2 things 1 removing the condition/hex 2 hitting them with an orison

DavisMarkin · May 08, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

I will not scream at a monk to "HEAL ME HEAL ME" However if i notice my health continue to drop, I will ctrl click my helth bar a couple times. Just to let them know im about to die.

That's just as bad, imo. It's like creating a 'heal me' macro in other MMOs. Sure it might be easy to do, but, it's still telling the Mo "WTF, HEAL ME!". It might not be intended, but it can most certainly be taken that way. Now I suppose if for some reason, the Mo didn't heal anyone, then yeah... something's really wrong with that guy. But most people (even non-Mos) will keep the party window up. I kinda wish it'd show energy though too.

Care Less · May 09, 2005, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Might want to add these few lines

In PvP

The monk did not fail to heal you , he let you die to save him self or another more important player , dont spam saying how much the monk "omfg suxx0rs" this can also happen in PvE

Spamming Heal me or Res me wont get you healed faster , heals and resses comes when possible

Monks dont have unlimited Engery and can not heal the whole team in 2 secs (well party heal but if you use that in pvp you should not be a monk :P )

/ Care Less

Mila · May 09, 2005, 04:01 PM // 16:01

I've been silently looking around these forums since the game came out. When I came across this thread I just had to join.

I'm a monk by nature. Every game I've ever played, the white mage was always my favorite to play. Until now.

I play a Mo/Me my husband plays a warrior. It's been great going through the first parts of this game "solo"ing together. Just recently we reached Kryta and I am so ready to leave because of stupid people that are inconsiderate. All the reasons have already been listed in this thread, and I applaud the origional poster.

As the game get's harder, non warriors can't keep charging into a huge group of enemies and then yell at me for not keeping the five of them alive. I'm so sick of saying "please wait a sec between battles for my energy to recharge" and being ignored.

My all time favorites are the ranger that went into a mission with NO armor on, the warrior that carried a weapon that depleated his health & yelled at me for not keeping him healthy. And my all time favorite, a Mo/W build that didn't heal at all, just rushed in with his 'friend' warrior. How the hell was I supposed to keep him alive?

I so hope to have the opportunity to play with some of you some day! The members of this forum seem to realize that tactics quite often outweigh brute force. For now, I may go play my R/N for a few days.

jdwoody · May 09, 2005, 04:56 PM // 16:56

sorry my bad on the heal party recharge, I meant it takes a relatively long time to cast for how much healing you get...

On a side note, I had the game crash out in the middle of a mission, but was on teamspeak so I could still communicate with my guildmates. I found that even though I was in a messed up windows mode, when I hit '4' I would still cast heal party. Sure enough in the middle of a battle when they needed it I was able to heal the entire party and helped them get through, glad I didn't reboot my machine!

obvlexi · May 10, 2005, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jericho

3. Do not settle for a secondary class monk. Despite what others might tell you, a character without Divine Favor is not a healer.

Sorry but this is just ignorant. An E/Mo with a good build can outheal a primary monk any day for pure HP output... energy storage is that good as it allows for infinite casting without having to worry about outside factors. It won't be as effective for protection prayers, but that is why good pvp teams have more than 1 monk with different specialties.

How is a monk that never has to stop to regen energy not a healer. You are not taking into your calculations how long a primary monk has to wait for energy to regen, not to mention enchantment stripping.

Lazarus · May 10, 2005, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by obvlexi

...An E/Mo with a good build can outheal a primary monk any day for pure HP output...

IMHO, Energy storage is no replacement to Divine Favor when it comes healing spells.

My monk can spend 5 energy and heal you for over 150hp. If I spend 10 I can heal for over 225. While you can cast more spells, I am willing to bet 5 of my heals are better than 10 of yours.

Epinephrine · May 10, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Both El/Mo and Mo/X can be very good healers. El/Mo is not as efficient as Mo/X, and thus often can't deal with a spike of damage as well. Mo/X often can't heal for as long straight as an El/Mo. Mo/X gets divine spells which can be helpful, El/Mo gets energy based spells which can really make life easier. There are builds with both that are very effective. Even Nec/Mo can be a very good healer in the right situation - if you are partied with a minion necromancer you can have what feels like boundliess energy with a Nec/Mo. Let's not turn a discussion about how Monks are treated and how to stand up for healers into a pissing contest about builds.

Monks come in all shapes and sizes, there are many ways to play one. If the main goal of your character is to reduce the damage your party takes, heal them or keep them in fighting form you are a support character and essentially in the same boat as a monk. I plan on shifting my necro/monk to Protection/Curses to give it a try, and I am willing to bet that except for astute players I'll be told off for not "healing" even when I am shielding them from damage, reducing monster attack rates and weakening the melee mobs on them.

mostro · May 10, 2005, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarus

IMHO, Energy storage is no replacement to Divine Favor when it comes healing spells.

My monk can spend 5 energy and heal you for over 150hp. If I spend 10 I can heal for over 225. While you can cast more spells, I am willing to bet 5 of my heals are better than 10 of yours.

This is what I thought regarding primary/secondary monk too. While a primary monk may not have as much energy as an ele/mo, the bonus from DF makes a primary monk heals more efficiently and better. DF really helps when a member of your team is being focused and you need to pull out as much heal as possible.

Do I think that a primary monk can heal better? Yes. Would it prevent me from having an ele/mo in the party? No. As long as the monk has a good skill it does not really matter if he wants to use ele/mo.

Davin Kabak · May 10, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

As a Ranger/Warrior, I find that in most parties I join, I am not in HUGE need of healing, due to the (omfg1337) skill of Troll Unguent. That being said, with a good mix of ranged and melee damage/condition skills, I am usually able to roam as I please.

Where do I usually roam? Behind the front line, usually within spitting distance of the Monk. The monk can keep me alive, and I can quickly intercept a charging warrior as he breaks through the line. With Hunter shot, I can put pain on anyone that starts chasing my monk, and its even better when that monk starts running in a circle around me. Almost always, the Warrior will notice the damage I'm dealing him, and turn to focus on me. This frees up my monk, and he gets right to healing on me, while I erradicate the offending warrior (Swordsmanship 9 with a Sundering sword on a ranger can be quite deadly

)

Healing Spell....10 Mana
Troll Unguent...10 mana
Apply Poison...15 Mana

Shooting a warrior in the back with hunter+poison to kill him after beating him up for attacking my monk...Priceless

Banned · May 19, 2005, 09:21 AM // 09:21

I might as well add my .02 cents here myself! There have been times when one player takes all my time and heals, sucking up my energy in droves, and when they die I leave them there until the battle is complete. A few times team mates have even said something about it, but during a hard battle a rez takes time and a large amount of energy that I find I need when a fight is raging around me. It's nothing personal, but there are others that need it as we go. There is nothing more frustrating to me when a group over aggros or goes in hot and heavy and the team takes a ton of damage, and i'm expected to heal all of the team members. Big heals take big energy! I've often grouped with 8 person teams, and no one ever died, and I was the only healer (plenty of post dragon lair quests). Its all about energy management, tactics, and knowing which spells to use in any given situation.

Still, nothing is better than gaming with a bunch of people who know how to play the game and support one another in each of their rolls... It's a lot of fun when that happens.

Oh, and please dont tell me what spells to put on my bar, it drives me nuts when other characters do this!!!

Nice post!

none · May 19, 2005, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banned

I might as well add my .02 cents here myself! There have been times when one player takes all my time and heals, sucking up my energy in droves, and when they die I leave them there until the battle is complete. A few times team mates have even said something about it, but during a hard battle a rez takes time and a large amount of energy that I find I need when a fight is raging around me. It's nothing personal, but there are others that need it as we go.

[...]

Oh, and please dont tell me what spells to put on my bar, it drives me nuts when other characters do this!!!

Nice post!

True enough. Sometimes I'm even glad (bad monk, bad monk) if one char dies, because it's impossible for a lonely monk to heal a party of 8, if the group overestimated their strength. i've found that i'm able to keep 4 ppl alive in a hard battle where i might fail with 8 ppl. this of course also has to do with bad tactics from some of those (like warriors chasing different enemies if i use healing seed). i always heal as much as i can do, but if i see that i can't keep everyone alive i concentrate on those that i regard as crucial for the survival of the group. and i'd expect every other monk to do the same, although i know very well, that it's frustrating if you're dead in the midst of the battle and can't help the others (i've experienced it more than once with my primary char who is no monk and doesn't even have real healing abilities).

As for your second point, I sometimes ask other monks what skills they are using, if i'm not the only monk in a group. not because i want to correct them, but a) because i want to arrange my skills so we best work together (i'm a pure monk, so can choose between healing and protecting), and b) to get new ideas that i might use for my own healing tactics and improve those.