Curse

Khift · Jun 09, 2005, 11:44 PM // 23:44

I currently run an ascended W/E build which use//abuses Warrior's Endurance {E} to spam three 5 energy attack skills. In PvE, this build is extremely effective, cutting through enemies like a hot knife through butter. However, I have had next to no PvP success with this build, nor any other warrior build I've come up with. I cannot seem to play on any of the strengths warriors have - my offense is hampered by having to chase down every single target I choose and by the proliferation of spells like Healing Seed, Aegis, Enfeeblind Blood, Faintheartedness, Reversal of Fortune, etc., and my defense is negated by the simple fact that I am never targetted until the rest of my team is dead or dying. I have considered relying solely on conditions, but I find the manner with which warrior's create conditions to be lacking, seeing as they require adrenaline to be built up first which can be largely hampered or prevented by simply running away. I have also considered waiting for the enemy's warriors to charge in and attempt to attack my monks and casters and then targetting them, but these enemies have high defense, are easily healed, and can be protected by anti-warrior spells just as easily as any other target I choose.

In the end, I cannot find any reason to even have a warrior in a party, unless that party is willing to go completely warrior gung-ho with snares, enchantment removal, hex removal, and offensive enchantment + hex stacking.

Am I missing something here? Am I being overly pessimistic? Is the something in this whole "warrior" piece beyond what I can see? Because as it stands, I see no real reason to be in a PvP group.

Current build:
1. Conjure Flame
2. Seeking Blade
3. Power Attack
4. Pure Strike
5. Galrath Slash
6. Warrior's Endurance {E}
7. Hamstring
8. Sprint

DarrenJasper · Jun 10, 2005, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Try making a knock-lock build. If you can't kill anyone, at least you can keep them from doing anything until your team kills them.

Rey Lentless · Jun 10, 2005, 03:22 AM // 03:22

With a warrior/elementalist, you're really just a pure damage dealer.. and have to rely on other teammates to remove enchantments and pick your targets for you. With conjure element, you should really be using frenzy. I think I'd drop the WE and energy based attacks since you want to be attacking quickly with a higher base damage from conjure, you may as well use adrenal skills that are going to be doing more for you.

WE would be good with a sword, but don't think it fits with an elemental secondary. Personally I think flourish is better for that anyway.

I'd consider using skull crack as your elite since you should have the adrenal to support it. It's tough to use, but awesome when you get it right. Something like:

Conjure Flame
Frenzy
Skull Crack
Sprint
Sever Artery
Gash
Galrath
Power attack

The Red Knight · Jun 10, 2005, 03:53 AM // 03:53

If i was a w/e id do something like this

sever artery
gash
Victory is mine(e)
final thrust
berserker stance
sprint
conjure flame
mark of rodgort

Basically abuse bleed gash and fire for Vim

which inturn gives you more energy for another rodgort. you have to get gladiator armor though =[

Zeru · Jun 10, 2005, 04:32 AM // 04:32

W/E is a fine combo but yeah there is a definite anti-warrior bias out there currently. I would say try a hammer warrior for it's knockdowns and followup with an aftershock. the ability to throw down wards can be a lifesaver too if you spec in Earth (I'm partial to Earth for some reason with warriors).

Might want to consider the often overlooked griffon's sweep if you find yourself swiping air a lot.

xiaolonglu · Jun 10, 2005, 04:33 AM // 04:33

defining warrior being a damage machine is a wrong direction. Go Ele pri if you want to be damage dealer.

Lord Malikai · Jun 10, 2005, 07:40 AM // 07:40

I don't see how War/E posts keep coming up like this. Take a good long look at your skills. Yup, you are fricking dangerous. Throw it all to the wind. Don't take defensive skills. Exhaust your energy pool. Things will drop dead at your feet.

Darc.Syde · Jun 10, 2005, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiaolonglu

defining warrior being a damage machine is a wrong direction. Go Ele pri if you want to be damage dealer.

this makes me laugh..

that begs the question, if a warrior isnt a damage dealer, what is it?

Mitsu Bishi · Jun 10, 2005, 09:26 AM // 09:26

As of now, I'd say he is nothing. Yes he could deal damage, but right now the most useful thing for a warrior to do is the knockdown to interrupt casters. Damage output is simply too low to contribute significantly to your team's overall success. Elementalists for the damage, Mesmers for the shutdown, Monks for healing. Those are the core parts of a team, the rest are fillers. In organized 4vs4 (Team Arena) I bet a good team of 2 Ele's (Air/Earth, Air/Monk, well even fire could work well), a Mesmer and a Monk are far more useful than anything with a warrior in it.

Warriors shine in PvE because they can tank there. But what good does a tank if nobody cares to take him on like in PvP? Basically one half of the warriors usefulness gets completely ignored in high level PvP and therefore he is half useless. His damage alone (if not augmented a lot with enchantments) ain't going to cut it.

JYX · Jun 10, 2005, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Really. The warrior can put out greater amounts of sustained damage than any other class. No he dosen't deal spike damage...which appears to be the trend nowadays, but thats not really the point. A warrior fighting an hour into the match is just as effective, whereas a front loaded Ele is not. Besides...by stacking buffs...we can boost the DPS of a warrior into high 60s and low 70s...this damage is less conditional than most others so its not like he can't deal some burst damage when the occasion calls for it. Yes we get things like healing seed, but for countering Eles you get protective spirit, the answer always has been the same...use rend.

Effectiveness of a warrior's defense is less useful in PvP. Thusly...don't defend. Go all attack, your armour will save you when using dangerous skills like Frenzy. The sustained damage of a warrior is not low. Using simple self buffs like warrior's cunning, conjure element, frenzy, throwing in a power attack when you can...fairly standard warrior stuff...this is roughly equal to an elementalist continually spamming: Lightning orb, Lightning strike, obsidian flame and stoning. The difference is?...warriors have a much easier job sustaining this.

The real problem is in countering the enemy's movements, since the emphasis nowadays appears to be in rapid burst damage using multiple elementalists. Forcing the movement of the game to your advantage. Skills like Fertile Season forces the enemy to drag out the game...wasting time...burning through skills and energy. In this situation a warrior will become much more useful. So really...as a warrior you can't just do it yourself, you need a necro to remove enchants, you need rangers to drag out a fight, you need monks to keep you alive and buff you. So erm...hows that different to any other class?...its not...just the job is different. I don't think the warrior is retarded in any way...its just perhaps people's expectations of them need to be altered.

Executioner · Jun 10, 2005, 10:25 AM // 10:25

It seems to me that warriors fly from one end of the specturm to the other in PvP, fighting againts an un warded team means they have good damage output and effective skill use, againts a warded spam team they become virtualy useless, while i was playing my sword warrior i managed to hit the target in about 1 in 15 swings.

why ? ok well the warrior class has only 1 skill to hit a target which cannot be blocked or evaded, the damage caused from this attack is is generally ok but the recharge time of the skill is generally too long (4) or in the case of a sword warrior (8) which gives the attacked target more than enough time to heal this.

Basicly if your going for a high damage output warrior, expect to be very effective and not effective at all.

Since, alot of teams use wards so i switched to hammer, at the least i can get 1 attack on a monk with a knockdown(spell stopper). If you have 2 hammer warriors in a team you can do some really good squash combinations if the warriors work out there skill sets so they dont clash and watch each other for the opening's then they can keep a monk down almost none stop.

Second to that i use a team based skill from the monk aspect.

For a W/E i would suggest, grab zealous hammer, work out some skills and test them, combo it with an ele ward(heh so they like to run.. screams slow ward)or if you want to help the party out more use the ward againts foes or ward againts elements and a rez signet(fastest way to get a monk back to his feet with a good chance of survival)

As for doing high damage, i managed some how to hit a caster for 218, im still trying to work out how...??

Myodato · Jun 10, 2005, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

my offense is hampered by having to chase down every single target I choose

There's your problem. A warrior shouldn't be chasing targets he chooses, he should be chasing targets that have been set up by his casters for him to take down. Anything above Ascalon arena, and you're not going to get any kills that way.

Personally, I would switch to axe instead. It has a great interrupt ability, and does massive criticals (Mmmm, Cleave) against running targets. If you're not going to hit often, then make sure it hurts when you do.

FrogDevourer · Jun 10, 2005, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitsu Bishi

In organized 4vs4 (Team Arena) I bet a good team of 2 Ele's (Air/Earth, Air/Monk, well even fire could work well), a Mesmer and a Monk are far more useful than anything with a warrior in it.

Probably... at least until you meet a team with a decent protection monk, high air resists, wards and energy drain, or power block or black out shut down. Don't take me wrong, your 'perfect' team is not to be sneezed at, since it can be very deadly. It's just not THE ultimate team. Once an elementalist has depleted his initial energy pool, he must wait for energy regeneration. On the contrary, a warriors keeps a constant damage output based on adrenaline.

Now back on topic. Playing a warrior in PvP is very different than playing one in PvE. Your skills are often different, your attributes can be different as well, and you'll have to learn about positioning and running.

Simply put, if used correctly, warriors have the BEST damage per second when the fight lasts for more than one minute. Elementalists can be deadly for multiple reasons such as scary damage spikes, but warriors are mandatory to keep pressure on opponent healers and to force them to use their spells, that is to say to drain their energy, to have their spell recharging instead of being 100% ready to counter your team's damage, to make them run instead of healing.

Chaynsaw · Jun 10, 2005, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Warriors must deal damage first and foremost. Because warrior armor absorbs so much punishment, warriors are ignored first. If warriors become a problem to where a team has to think about how to shut the warrior down, then they are doing their job.

How about Warrior's Cunning (5-10 seconds, attacks cannot be blocked or evaded)? What you need is enchantment removal and mend ailment to remove your blind, both of which are probably better executed by your teammates, rather than you.

Racthoh · Jun 10, 2005, 02:00 PM // 14:00

I've tampered with a few things with my first build (warrior/necromancer) and have learned that a warrior is quite weak in the damage output. Frenzy is all good when fighting against other warriors. But taking 150+ damage from spells because of it... I'd rather attack slowly.

Which is probably why I focussed all of my strength on defense. A body falls, well of blood for regeneration. Gladiator's defense hits for 23 right now, and on a frenzied warrior 46. I beef up my HP with endure pain and Demonic Flesh (use this first) for every bit of extra HP I can get. Combined with a rune of minor (shrug) vigor, a sword with +24 health, I get a lot of extra HP. I get my kills through Life Siphon, faithheartedness, sever artiery, and gladiator's defense. So, I look like this:

Healing Signet
Gladiator's Defense
Well of Blood
Sever Artery
Endure Pain
Faithheartedness
Life Siphon
Demonic Flesh

Problem is I don't have a shield and instead use an item that gives me +11 energy with +4 elemental defense (nothing too special). Currently I PvP with an outfit of Knight's stuff, but I'll probably change my armour/leggins for gladiators for an extra 5 energy. I might also see if using Grenth's Balance is effective as a kamikaze way of killing monks with practically one shot.

Sleazy_D · Jun 10, 2005, 02:32 PM // 14:32

It comes down to tactics, and skill mix... if you wind up against a spike damage team your warriors will have a different role than if you wound up against a team of brawlers. Bring in a set of 4 good primary/damage skills, a res, and 3 support skills that can be used when you can't immediately begin the pounding. It's usually better to throw something in that you can use on other people (healing spells, protection spells, anti-hex spells) so if you're being shut down, you can keep alive, and help the team stay alive.

Bazooka · Jun 10, 2005, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Assuming you're a W/N with 25 energy , Rend Enchantment then Grenth's Balance sounds like a fine alpha strike on your intended target. You'd need to see how practical this is in 8v8 pvp where sometimes primary target is the closest person with the lowest health,regardless of profession. Hopefully the .25 casting time of Grenth is enough to give you a buffer against the reprisal.

In the crew I run with sometimes, our best Well of Power-er is a W/N who also happens to be calling targets

Yukito Kunisaki · Jun 10, 2005, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myodato

There's your problem. A warrior shouldn't be chasing targets he chooses, he should be chasing targets that have been set up by his casters for him to take down. Anything above Ascalon arena, and you're not going to get any kills that way.

Personally, I would switch to axe instead. It has a great interrupt ability, and does massive criticals (Mmmm, Cleave) against running targets. If you're not going to hit often, then make sure it hurts when you do.

WTH? I'm almost always the primary target caller on every HoH run I do. Who says a warrior with brains can't aim the team at a target? Who do you think can call a target first?! A caster in the back, or a warrior up front?

Axes are gaining hot popularity due to their abilities. And yes, Cleave hurts like a bat out of Hell itself. I don't use it though due to Victory is Mine! making life easier both for myself and for my team's monk.

After doing a careful skill check. I now truely believe in my not so humble opinion that the Axe is truely the ultimate melee weapon.

No other weapon can out damage and ignore armor like the axe. Penetrating Blow. Executioner's Strike. CLEAVE. Sure you got Final Thrust, however, not only does it need a whopping 10a, but the enemy has to be below 50% hp to make it work. That and it DOESN'T ignore armor. [an enemy nailed me in the spine with Final Thrust for 10hp dmg and I had 100hp left [I'm lvl 20]. Good thing I cast weakness on him]

No other weapon can drop conditions on an enemy like the axe. Dismember, Axe Rake, Axe Twist. [axe twist is the equivalent of casting a 12 point curses enfeeble] The deep wound caused by Dismember is the same adrenaline needed for Gash so I would not say sword is better. Hamstring/bleeding? I'll just plague touch you with it. I don't care

No other weapon can stuff an enemy's ability to do something like the axe. Sure you can knockdown with a hammer or Savage slash with a sword. But want to make an enemy useless for 20s.? Nail his/her Orison of Healing/Healing Seed/Ward of etc. with a nice Disrupting Chop. 20s. of uselessness is FAR BETTER than attempting to knocklock or interrupt temporarily. With 20s. of skill lock and 6a, you can try to disrupting chop another 3 skills during the first skill's lock which will make the enemy only half as useful as they could have been. All hail the Disrupting Chop! [my dream would be to have this skill cost 5 energy and have 4s. recharge just like power attack but that'd be broken now wouldn't it? ^_^]

Sword has more skills that need energy but for me in all honesty, why should a warrior use energy to hit his enemy? His energy should be used to feed his secondary class which should support his role. Either drop conditions, or drop damage. Can't do both perfectly, so pick one and stick to it. [conditions in my opinion is a lot harder to counter than dmg]

shawn23233 · Jun 10, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

The general wisdom in PvP is that warriors are "fairly" useless. I have become a convert and no longer believe this to be true. Like every other class it comes down to the player.

I played with a warrior last nite (whom I hope to play with again alot) who was very good at everything any player should be, but he also was able to use a knockdown spell on casters at an almost spam rate and with really great timing (as an interupter I was really impressed and maybe a lil envyous LOL). This knockdown ability made him MORE then just a mere aggrivation and a little extra damage.

I think this will become like rangers with frozen soil to me now. If you have it your welcome to come, if not sorry.

Rey Lentless · Jun 10, 2005, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

WTH? I'm almost always the primary target caller on every HoH run I do. Who says a warrior with brains can't aim the team at a target? Who do you think can call a target first?! A caster in the back, or a warrior up front

The reason being that he's a w/e. No hex power, no enchant removal. The ones with those spells should be the ones calling. This type of warrior can do massive damage, but a target caller, he is not.

I use a W/N and my damage output isn't what a W/E is, but I am a primary target caller. With rend enchantment and ocassionally lingering curse, I'm able to choose my own targets. With plague touch, I'm not reliant on condition removals.

The warrior's job is really defined by what their secondary is. A W/Mo can have the primary resing responsibility. W/N and W/Me can be target callers. W/E is a better damage dealer. W/R... some different options there I guess.

Playing a specialist is fine, but it does require more coordination from your team.

EDIT: And Mark of Rodgort is great, but I'd leave that to an elementalist on your team if possible. 25 Energy and you have to remain on the same target in order to get much use out of it. Considering you're depending on your team to call targets, and may have to switch often... I'd leave a more reliable skill in that slot that can do damage even if you do switch targets, as you aren't going to have that 25 energy back any time soon. And while it's still a great spell, elementalists are better off left with the casting time and energy cost and they'll be able to use it more often.