Curse

Geom · Jun 05, 2005, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Yeah I have to disagree as well. Air magic's armor penetration is awesome, as well as the many large damage dealing spells with knockdown are just scary.

Aranador · Jun 05, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

A necro that is built to be a tank stopper WILL stop a tank. It just happens that way, because weakness and slow tend to turn any warriors DPS into DPH. But A warrior that has a build that uses their secondary to good effect - that can suddenly turn around and make the necro suffer!

Anyway - I like to kill necros fast - once they get a swarm of minions up - its a pain - so get em dead and keep them that way

Winterclaw · Jun 06, 2005, 03:28 AM // 03:28

I play a W/E and have an E/W secondary so I've seen things from both sides of the equation.

As a warrior, I do what I can with my swords and when I need a little extra umph, I use a spell to help out. Warrior + PBAoE = crowd control, if monks could only heal energy and shorten cast times.

Unless I'm getting really ganged up on, I feel that I can usually survive the battle. There are two things I don't like about warriors though. The first is the difficulty healing themselves. Healing signat isn't too bad as long as you aren't taking too many hits or hit by a powerful spell. The other is you can't remove hexes that are on you.

As an elementalist, I haven't gone nearly as far and I can't say as much about it, but the damage is at least as good as the warriors in PvE, but then again, your armor isn't that great. As a plus, you've got Aura of Restoration so you can heal a little when spamming (spell of choice).

I think that another important thing to remember is that it is also the build and the player that make the difference. With the right sub and equipment, a warrior can be a little more flexible (or powerful) than people think.

ratatass · Jun 06, 2005, 04:09 AM // 04:09

I tried reading all the posts, so I am sorry if somebody already has mentioned this:

The number one guild in the World is KOR. One of their most successful builds have been the 4 monks 1 Mesmer 3 Warrior build. They since have played numerous other variations (all insanely good).

Who is doing the damage ? The monks ? Partly true...the monks buff the Warriors to an insane DPS. But it is the Warriors axe that will make your head oozzzzze brain fluid and sever your head from your spine.

It illustrates that in a good teambuild casters and Warriors in a team can elevate the damage output, but all and all it is the Warrior that stands for a lot of the DPS (most of it).

The Fianna ran a heavy ranger build a few months back and they owned....so it wasn't the casters or the warriors that made the damage it was the rangers...

The game is about skill, planning and teamwork. Looking at classes isolated like discussed in the thread is pointless. If KOR or Fianna decided to run an all Ranger or Necro build they would still beat your asses - bad wether or not you would think your Warrior or Caster had a higher DPS...

but then again, this is what we got a forum for. It is what makes my day reading the Apples and Oranges fight over and over again. It lets me add my pointless rambling to the Matrix.

Ratatass

Skillful Slayer · Jun 09, 2005, 03:19 PM // 15:19

well i read alot of the posts but im out of ime so i would like to say that KoH does so well because they work well and efficently as a team. Thats the real challenge of this game elementalists do deal spike damage and as long as you SPIKE it, it can be sustained. Warriors potentially have more dps but less of a spike. gtg now maybe will continue l8r

Executioner · Jun 09, 2005, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Yeah it may be true that casters have a very high damage output but warriors are essentual to 90% of teams bar the monk ele spike teams or even the dreaded earth ele "boom your all dead" teams.

KOR aint so bad, the pug team i was in beat them twice in tombs in 2 days, ok so once was with a little help from blue team, then teal cleaned up once we got wiped off the plate, and the second time was capture the alter which involves some tactics and alot of luck (thanks KOR for helping to kill reds ghost for us

) heh then we ran into sassy's team, I think the quote from -i sell sigils- was "i hate hammers" , but we had no anti ele wards, so.. heh our hair was left kind of spikey

.

The more you see, the more you learn, the more you learn to anti build, but nothings 100% water tight.

Khift · Jun 09, 2005, 11:23 PM // 23:23

I play a W/E, and I do argue that he deals out more damage than most every pyromancer I've ever grouped with. (I used to play an E/Me, which I got to Maguuma before switching to my W/E.)

My W/E uses, or should I say abuses?, Warrior's Endurance {E} to allow me to spam three different 5 energy attack skills (Pure Strike, Power Attack, Seeking Blade) with absolutely no energy attrition. I then throw Galrath Slash so my built-up adrenaline does not go to waste and Conjure Flame to add even more to each attack. I then finish off my build with Phoenix and "I Will Avenge You!" for some situational skills. The end result? I do an average of 44.47 damage a hit to the monsters in S. Shiverpeaks. (An actual calculation, not an estimation. This is the average of five attacks against a foe with 80 AL vs elemental, with one attack for each skill and then one attack without a skill.) IWAY gives me survivability if the rest of the team dies before me (Although I am not at all happy with the range it considers to be "near" you), and Phoenix is just awesome if I am surrounded by mobs.

A pyromancer requires AoE spells to keep up with this kind of damage. Fire magic has a piss-poor selection of lone target spells, leaving you with either Flare, Immolate, or Meteor as your primary spells - dealing (at 12 Fire Magic, and yes, I know it goes higher) 18 damage, 62 damage, and 43 damage, respectively and after armor is calculated, in 1.75 seconds, 1.75 seconds + 5 second recharge, and 3.75 seconds + 30 second recharge, also respectively. (Yes, that is including the "On Fire" status from Immolate.) In the same amount of time taken to cast those spells, my Warrior deals 59, 59, and 125 damage, respectively, not counting recharge times. Thus we can see that a pyromancer does less damage than my warrior, when focusing on one target. Of course, the real power of the pyromancer comes from AoE attacks like Meteor Shower, Firestorm, and Searing Heat -- but these rarely work well unless luck prevails or you have an awesome warrior capable of getting all the aggro and keeping it on him and only him. Why? Well, not only do the AoEDOT spells require the enemies to be grouped together, they have to STAY grouped together for the duration of the spell. Like I said, this simply doesn't happen unless your warrior is awesome and your group knows how to stay back until he has ALL of the aggro. What usually happens is the enemy reaches your group, disperses, and attacks the casters, leaving only small handfuls of enemies in any given spot. The simple one-shot AoE spells like Fireball and Rodgort's Invocation work much better, seeing as they remove the need for the mobs to stay put, but the first requirement - that the enemies are grouped together - is still difficult to accomplish for more than two or three mobs. And until luck or skill makes the enemies group together, the pyromancer will never even match the DPS of my warrior, things like recharge and energy pools notwithstanding -- and both of those are negatives only for the pyromancer, not my warrior.

THAT being said, this whole argument flies out the window if one of two conditions are fulfilled: one, that the battle in question is a PvP battle, and two, that the elementalist in question is an aeromancer. PvP battles are far too chaotic to allow my warrior build to work it's magic, since I spend more time chasing after someone than fighting (Even with Sprint and Hamstring equipped), and aeromancers are much better in unconditional single target damage than pyromancers are. However, the discussion was about warrior vs elementalist in PvE, and I've never (ever) seen a PvE aeromancer, just PvP aeromancers.

IN conclusion, I will say this: It is possible for a good warrior to outdamage a good elementalist, and, in fact, that the only time this particular warrior build is outdamaged by an pyromancer elementalist is when the group has a solid tank and a solid understanding of how to let the tank do his job well.

Spike · Jun 10, 2005, 02:45 PM // 14:45

You can't of played a fire ele much as thier is a VERY nice spell called mark of rodgrot which (at lvl 15 fire magic) for 20 seconds mean that EACH time a target takes fire damge it gets set on fire for 3 seconds.

BTW the WHOLE point of a fire ele is that he IS AN AOE ele just like an air ele is a single target ele. So saying that a fire ele has bad single target spell is stupid as its like saying an air ele as bad AOE spells. Different elements are for different things. My fire ele works very well thanks. So once again you can't be playing yours very well or don't know how to use it.

My 1st character is a E/ME and he has finished the game my 2nd a W/Mo is lvl 18 and at the glades and my 3rd is a R/N and just finished pre sear. My E/ME easery outdamages my W/Mo

Yamat · Jun 10, 2005, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Khift, I don't know where you got those numbers from for fire damage, but they are hugely inaccurate, oh and you forgot fireball... I've been doing 225 dmg with that...

But I still go back to the original point, warriors don't kill PvE enemies, casters do. While warrior damage is sustained, you need that spike to get around the self heal that many monsters have, which kicks in when they hit ~20% life left. A warrior knocking them down 5-10% at a time doesn't kill them. The Ele spike does.

Sayshina · Jun 12, 2005, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

I stopped bothering with w/mos and monks for quite a bit now. I just randomly invite people, and if we don't get a monk, I'll just grab the henchies. I have found that w/mos generally don't add much to the party, as a tank really isn't needed most of the time because mobs still go for the casters and 1 or 2 warriors isn't going to be blocking very well. Only good use of w/mos I've seen lately is having them run away and res the team later.

Please, please try that plan in the underworld. See how long you survive against bulls with no meatshield.

As for how to block, this is something we struggle with every time we take a newbie down with us, but almost always they become converts once they see the tactic in use.

Find a piece of terain that will funnel the monsters such that they get hung up on the Warrior wall. Most maps in this game don't have a lot of wide open areas, and act like a bunch of tunnels for game purposes. So find a turn, or some rock that juts out, and make your wall there. Then have all the casters hide behind it, angled in so that the monsters will get caught in the v between the War wall and the game wall.

The Ranger then goes out and pulls back to this "base", and also looks for the next spot to set up at, calling for the move up as he sees the need.

That's it, so simple but it's amazing how hard it is go convince newbies to even try it. Everyone in this game seems to desperatly want it to be like Diablo 2, with them able to single handedly "own" the entire map.

Sayshina · Jun 12, 2005, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

Khift, I don't know where you got those numbers from for fire damage, but they are hugely inaccurate, oh and you forgot fireball... I've been doing 225 dmg with that...

But I still go back to the original point, warriors don't kill PvE enemies, casters do. While warrior damage is sustained, you need that spike to get around the self heal that many monsters have, which kicks in when they hit ~20% life left. A warrior knocking them down 5-10% at a time doesn't kill them. The Ele spike does.

My lvl 15 Fireball does 112 dmg. So how is yours doing double? It's only possible for you to have 1 more skill pt in, so how are you getting the excess? Could it be that you're doing 225 against a lightly armored critter, most likely a lower level one? You should say what you're fighting when you state your damage, as their armor level makes a bit of a diference.

My lvl 15 Fireball with 112 dmg. mostly does around 50 real world dmg. to what I'm fighting, as most high lvl. things have pretty nice armor. It actualy does much more vs. live opponents than I could ever hope for PvE.

Yamat · Jun 13, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

^^^

L20, Fire 15, fighting in the shiverpeaks around Thunderhead, etc. L20+ mobs.

Akshara · Jun 13, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

While warrior damage is sustained, you need that spike to get around the self heal that many monsters have, which kicks in when they hit ~20% life left. A warrior knocking them down 5-10% at a time doesn't kill them. The Ele spike does.

Or hit them for a deep wound with Dismember, followed by Axe Twist and Executioner's Strike. I've had little problems bringing down a self healing creature using that method. Adding a deep wound and weakness on top of an axe which deals 120+ dmg on a single hit is quite effective.

Indeed, a powerful spike hit from an Elementalist is a better method since it can deal so much damage so quickly. My point is that a warrior who uses good timing with their more damaging and draining skills has the ability to bring down self healers quite well too.

Rey Lentless · Jun 13, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

There are plenty of heavy hitting melee attacks too. Eviscerate can do around 150 without a critical. Any normal deep wounds hit will do around 120. And if someone's running, you'll regularly have 100 pt hits. Many strength attacks hit for 60+. Final thrust is around 100. Mix in 20% criticals and you have a lot of damage being done.

And a frenzied warrior can string those attacks together a sec a piece, so they can have their own version of spiked offense. That's usually not the plan with warriors, since unused ready adrenal skills are kind of wasting your dps, but it can be used to 'spike' just like an elementalist does.

As for tanks.. there isn't any taunt skill that let's warriors do their job, you have to help them do their job. If you're not a warrior and you're attacked, move back over to the warrior and let them reaquire them. I see too many low armor characters, just stand their while they're attacked, wasting monk energy with inefficient low armor tanking. It's not as easy as it is in other games to let the tanks tank, but it's still very doable, and requires everyone on the time to do it.

Sir Skullcrasher · Jun 13, 2005, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Yamat, im a Warrior/Elementalist and i killed boat load of charrs and any other weak monsters!

and you say warrior can't kill anything!!

Lagg · Jun 14, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Annoyance, interruption and finishing up (running) targets.

Combine near-immortality (especially W/Mo with some talent and maybe a healer to back them up) with the fact that you remain generally ignored on the battlefield and you have a pretty powerful (albeit somewhat uninspiring) PvP character going.

Also: Skull Crack. Mmmmh... Skull Crack.