Curse

Jun 02, 2005, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercurio Riven

Actually, Rangers are not needed in any group.

Right, because ranged disruption with damage and bonus vs elemental doesn't make Thirsty River a piece of cake right? Only newbs don't know how to play their classes, and it's exactly why some people cant beat even the simplest missions: not every mission is designed for warriors to plow through and monks to heal. Thirsty River is a great example of that, as a Ranger with Savage Shot and Distracting Shot, or a Mesmer with interrupts is going to run wild there.

Xellos · Jun 02, 2005, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Right, because ranged disruption with damage and bonus vs elemental doesn't make Thirsty River a piece of cake right? Only newbs don't know how to play their classes, and it's exactly why some people cant beat even the simplest missions: not every mission is designed for warriors to plow through and monks to heal. Thirsty River is a great example of that, as a Ranger with Savage Shot and Distracting Shot, or a Mesmer with interrupts is going to run wild there.

There's the occasional War/Mo gank build :P Purely designed for taking out the priests in Thirsty River, deprived from high damage tombs build :P

Jun 02, 2005, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Warriors have disruption too, it's just Rangers and Mesmers are better at it in PvE by far

Kungufumonkey: Unless you're using real math there's no point in posting inconsistent numbers. Anyone can have an average damage like that if you go through the entire game and count the low AL enemies in all of Ascalon and combine them with enemies you're stronger against in PvE.

LathalDraugr: Actually necros have the best set of Warrior hurt in the game. It's just that people tend to make these ungodly horrible nec/mes and mes/nec builds that rely on hex stacking which only works on newbs. The best kind of mes/nec builds only have a few hexes, and some form of energy denial interruption. For anti-warrior you dont need to kill them outright, just break their effectiveness and make them ignorable till their support is gone which is what makes necro so good against them with Sof/Enfeebling blood.

Xellos · Jun 02, 2005, 11:23 PM // 23:23

The question is, is primary necros worth it just to shove some runes in? Or should you take another primary?

Jun 03, 2005, 12:10 AM // 00:10

take another primary for that purpose

bloodbob · Jun 03, 2005, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Okay lets say look at stone flare simple spell no exhausting or AR penetration.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/skill/17-flare
So it does 40 dmg at max level.
If you have 5 mana regen it takes what 2 seconds for 5 mana? so that is what 20 dmg per second before armour. Not that great really.

Spike · Jun 03, 2005, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Bloodbob well that page does'nt take into account that you can get more than 12 fire magic my flare currently does 46 damage. I'm a lvl 15 fire mage. 12 +1 for flame eye and a major rune (+2)

BTW if you think that ele's can't do a lot of damage come with me when I go a perdition rock clearing i can kill a group of 3 lvl 24 drakes in about 10 secs if that. Mark of rodgrot,firestorm and then metor shower. Thier dead BEFORE the fire storm stops.

thejynxed · Jun 03, 2005, 02:43 PM // 14:43

I think most of the problems with warrior/monks is that alot of people don't setup their skills properly, and only rely on a single weapon in all situations. I have 3 different axe/shield combos I swap through during any given battle depending on if I am doing conditions, damage, or distraction duties. My skills are setup to be 1 rez, two heal, and the rest split between condition and damage.

Volarian · Jun 03, 2005, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

The reason why Warriors and Rangers excel at sustained DPS in most cases is because Warriors dont rely on energy for majority of their offense

Now I have a lvl 20 Warrior but don't think I have any elite skills as yet as I haven't ascended and from the list of skills I do have.....ummm more of them require energy than adrenaline albeit only 5 energy but with our low storage capacity......so I'm not sure what skills are being referred to here??

What do we rely on? Andrenaline doesn't recharge much faster if at all than energy..so explain the secret?

I'd agree with most of you, in up close combat, a Warrior would outlast a Caster almost every time because of their ability to absorb damg. I also concur that a nice mix of classes are necessary for a more complete grouping. Warriors to soak up some of the damage, Caster to buff or AOE dmg, healers for healing and some dmg output.

Akshara · Jun 03, 2005, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

ummm more of them require energy than adrenaline albeit only 5 energy but with our low storage capacity......so I'm not sure what skills are being referred to here??

Warriors can do a whole lot of damage by simply striking with their weapon with or without using a skill/spell, or with using a minimal selection of skills.

Most of our energy-based skills only cost 5 energy with an instant activation time and short recharges, which kinda offsets the low capacity and regen time. And adrenaline builds independently on each skill in the bar (not as a single linear pool for all adrenaline skills like the energy pool is); plus there is no activation time, no fixed recharge timer and they are not effected by most hexes or enchantments directly. So adrenaline skills can be quite effective depending on what one has equipped.

Considering both energy and adrenaline, we have two (or more) independent pools to draw from when using our skills. Compare this to the overall costs and activation/regen times of let's say, what an Air Magic Elementalist has to deal with, and the Warrior doesn't seem that slow or low on energy at all.

For example, when I use Frenzy followed by Cyclone Axe in a group, that takes only 10 energy, does serious damage with an enhanced max damage axe, draws a lot of the aggro since I'm taking dbl damage and fills up each of my adrenaline skills really quickly. Following up with two strong adrenaline skills deals even more instant damage while allowing time for energy to recharge for either a self heal, stance, condition or attack skill next. This whole time my axe is swinging, picking up adrenaline and dealing out damage. With good armor, positioning and a basic heal, a warrior can keep this kind of thing up for a very long time.

An Elementalist can do a whole lot more damage in one or two spells; but during their activation times they aren't doing any damage at all, and when/if they run out of energy, it's pretty much up to their wand or staff until their energy pool gets back high enough. If anti-casting hexes are being thrown on them too, then they're pretty much SOL until they wear off or are removed.

During all of that time, the Warrior keeps swinging...

Jun 03, 2005, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Adrenaline recharges based on you getting hit and you hitting someone. Energy recharges roughly 1/3 energy per sec. So a Warrior on 2 pips is getting .66 energy per sec. In PvE you're bound to take the aggro so your adrenaline is going to get boosted fast.

A warrior with a sword or axe is swinging once every 1.33 seconds, and even faster with frenzy up. You regen energy slower than casters but you dont care-you've got adrenaline based offense along with some energy using skills taken care of via zealous mods.

Akshara · Jun 03, 2005, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Adrenaline recharges based on you getting hit and you hitting someone. Energy recharges roughly 1/3 energy per sec. So a Warrior on 2 pips is getting .66 energy per sec. In PvE you're bound to take the aggro so your adrenaline is going to get boosted fast.

A warrior with a sword or axe is swinging once every 1.33 seconds, and even faster with frenzy up. You regen energy slower than casters but you dont care-you've got adrenaline based offense along with some energy using skills taken care of via zealous mods.

Lol... I love it when you pros pull out the raw stats... .66/s, 1.33/s. I wasn't aware of those, and that's good information to know. Thanks for that.

And yes, the hits we take also increase adrenaline, which I didn't clarify earlier (it's a secondary bonus to Frenzy, since foes seem to focus on me more when I enable it). I used to carry more energy attack skills early on in the game, but now that I tend to get mobbed by several foes quite often, the adrenaline skills have become much more effective. Early in the game, it seemed like the battle was over by the time they charged up.

And that's kind of a point I wish that Elementalists and Rangers who like to rush in and take all the aggro first would appreciate more... Warriors gain benefit from taking the aggro on directly, or with being the primary tank. When a non-warrior acts like a tank and rushes into mobs, it's kind of like if we had a Death Magic necro and I ran around blowing up all the corpses before he could do anything with them.

The last two nights, in just about every PUG I've been in, there's always at least one rambo elementalist or ranger who just rushes into range of a mob and starts laying down fire. If they'd let us attack first, create a blocking position and get the main aggro focused on us, THEN deal out their ungodly AOE or precision attacks, everything would go much more smoothly. Or at the very least, stand behind us when pulling the mobs...

Rey Lentless · Jun 03, 2005, 08:38 PM // 20:38

I'd rather have my warrior doing damage in pve than an elementalist. Mark of pain adds more aoe than any caster will do with his aoe I think, and because you have half your team adding that damage as well it rips up the same area much quicker than an aoe would.. along with the blocking/meatshield aspect. Deep wounds is one the heaviest damaging attacks in the game, and can stack, and axes have two of em. There's more disabling and conditions available to warriors than elementalists in general (will vary with builds of course). Plague touch to turn around any nasty condition to use it against the enemy, and you have a meatshield doing more damage than most elementalists can dream of.

That's not most warriors, but still.. just blanket statements like elementalists do more damage.. isn't accurate IMO.

I think the advantage of the elementalist is being able to switch targets much quicker, and they're harder to counter. Slows, conditions like weakness, running, defensive stances.. etc.. those don't hurt elementalists like they do warriors. There's a lot of ways in pvp to lower effectiveness of warriors (and aoe disable spells, unlike the anti-caster mesmer spells), but fewer against elementalists.. and mesmer's counters are going to be focusing on monks, rather than the elementalists.

Warriors have better ways of regenning their skills as well, so I don't think elementalists are better off in the endurance dps race either.

The drawback of warriors is pretty simple. They're melee. So if something runs from it, if you have to change targets, if you're disabled, slowed, have a negative condition lowering damage/attack speed/etc, defensive stances (if you don't have a counter).. then that makes them really crappy. That's more of a pvp thing though, the monsters aren't coordinating to take warriors effectiveness away on a regular basis.

So I tend to think it's the other way around. Warrior's aren't overrated in pve, and elementalists are stronger in pvp (compared to what they are in pve).

If you have a well coordinated team with multiple elementalists throwing alpha strikes out, then I think you have something different.. but in usual pugs warriors are more coveted and for good reason. They're just easier to support and generally safer. If it's a well coordinated group with skills complimenting each other, then I think an elementalist heavy group could be quicker and ultimately more effective.

But let's face it, you'll see requests for monks first and warriors second.. with all of the other characters second tier. Just the nature of pugs, and it's understandable and I believe correct.

Zeru · Jun 04, 2005, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

Bloodbob well that page does'nt take into account that you can get more than 12 fire magic my flare currently does 46 damage. I'm a lvl 15 fire mage. 12 +1 for flame eye and a major rune (+2)

Seriously why are you boasting about a 15 fire magic flare?

By that point it's just a fodder skill.

Weezer_Blue · Jun 04, 2005, 07:03 AM // 07:03

In PvP, I find something indredibly useful about warriors: How annoying they are. If there is an elementalist 50 feet away from my healing monk in a PvP match pelting me with godly damage amounts, I usually don't give it much though. I get out of the way - run behind a wall, get out of his range. Warriors are different. They are there. In your face. At all times. When I run from warriors - the only way to avoid them - they cut at my heals as I sneak away. They can corner me in a wall and they can use conditions to bother the hell out of me. Granted, it takes a lot more than a couple of tanks to kill me, but they should not be overlooked. There is more than pure damage to be respected in guild wars.

Spike · Jun 04, 2005, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Seriously why are you boasting about a 15 fire magic flare?

By that point it's just a fodder skill.

I was'nt boasting, just telling him that the web page was wrong as it did'nt take into account that people can have a skill higher than 12.

BTW warriors are cannon fodder not casters :P I KNOW i play both

The Red Knight · Jun 04, 2005, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Okay I play w/n and did team arena last night with my guild Used defile flesh and rend enchant and killed monks and eles alike? Then again i have 15 in axe and do about 90 dmg executioner strikes :b. Granted wars soak up alot of elementalist hate but thats why monks are there. Shrug I guess its all in how you play your warrior =[

buggsy · Jun 05, 2005, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Casters are a huge drag on the healer, in PvP or PvE. For every 2 casters you need another healer, especially in PvP. So theres really no damage gain when your putting more healers in your party, displacing warriors in the process.

sino-soviet · Jun 05, 2005, 12:35 AM // 00:35

IMHO, elementalists lose their effectiveness as the game goes on in terms of damage. Conjure + lvl 16 sword attribute + penetrating attack/cleave/executioners + a good sword and I dont think warriors are wimpy damage dealers at all. Warriors can deal damage over time consistently, especially warrior/eles, and if you think about it, can compete with the small bursts of damage from a ele easily.

Spike · Jun 05, 2005, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by sino-soviet

IMHO, elementalists lose their effectiveness as the game goes on in terms of damage. Conjure + lvl 16 sword attribute + penetrating attack/cleave/executioners + a good sword and I dont think warriors are wimpy damage dealers at all. Warriors can deal damage over time consistently, especially warrior/eles, and if you think about it, can compete with the small bursts of damage from a ele easily.

Sorry have to complete disagree. I can now with just henchmen CLEAR perdition rock and NOT die. and I'm a fire ele. i would'nt have a chance in hell before i assended BTW HOW are you useing AXE skills with a sword ?