Curse

Envy · Jun 02, 2005, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Good post Lathal. I think dps over a set period is real close from all the classes. I also think its true that when every one teams a monster, it goes down quick, and every one praises thereself not realizing that the adrenaline skills went off, spells went off, and ranger shots all landed about the same time.

Wolf89 · Jun 02, 2005, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Lol your an idiot once you've cast your spells we gotta wait for u to recharge I do about 80 dmg per hit normal and can do up to 120 depending on range of attack and critical. Elementalists are only good for weaking the enemies get out of pre searing and come to hells preciptice and see how useful u are. The only use elementalists have are casting a chain of meteor shower to keep enemies stunned.

Gomezie · Jun 02, 2005, 04:25 PM // 16:25

I gotta say.. fire elementalists and similar casters in pve are the highest damage dealers and are not affected by the likes of blind, and all this crap about waiting for a caster to recharge mana is balls!!

The only time i have ever encountered this with a random elementalist/mesmer person in the group.. he kept screaming that we needed to stop so he could recharge his mana, after watching him for quite some time i had noticed that he did not use ANY mesmer energy drawing skills or any elementalists attunements or Aura of restoration!!

So bringing the point to a close... yes the warriors are meatsheilds and do relatively minor damage in comparison to a good caster, providing the caster has more 1 braincell (which is most)

chalt2 · Jun 02, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

The key thing to keep in mind is that this IS a TEAM game and the team chemistry, tactics and communication are what wins in the end. If you use any one part wrong then you will have a bad night, if you use each of the classes to their strength then your going to do well, its not rocket science.

Would a Warrior do well on his own?, maybe depending on what he was fighting but for most of the situations it's not likely but team him up with a Monk and the chances are raised, then add to those two an Elemetalist and you have the start of a good combo. From those three you can mix and match what you add to make an even stronger party.

Again this perspective is for PvE only

hellraisin · Jun 02, 2005, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gothir

The thing is elementalists can tank just as good or better than warriors can anyway. With armor of earth on for +50 armor and normal 60 armor an elementalist will have 110 armor vs anything +15 armor to an element making them have as much armor as a warrior anyway. Where as a warrior will have 116 armor vs physical and 96 vs elemental with a shield and have lower armor if they don't use one. Throw in ward against melee and you can tank better thank most warriors can while still having 6 slots open for mana regen and damage.

yeah try to beat w/e warrior with 80 armor+50 for tanking.

Dogmeat · Jun 02, 2005, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiritofcat

In defence of groups looking for Warriors and Monks, I often find myself in a group of 3 or 4 casters and we just need a monk and a couple of warriors to round out the team. We only ever advertise for Warriors and Monks because they're harder to find than the other 4 classes.
I always let casters into the group until there's only a couple of spaces left then go looking for tanks and healers.

this could not be any more true. The reason people advertise so heavily for monks is because dedicated monks appear in far less numbers than elementalists, necromancers and rangers. in addition a good warrior is a great way to round off a team, especially since most teams tend to be far too caster heavy. A group that already consists of 4 rangers, elementalists and necromancers hardly needs 2 more in their ranks.

for every idiot warrior who screws up a teams plan by rushing there is an idiot caster sitting back pretending he is doing something useful and running the show while everyone else does the hard work. W/Mo builds are popular with new players but no one should expect a newbie to be an expert. However 'technically braindead' syndrome is a problem that unfortunetly runs rampant among experienced players of all classes as is evident here. Good players work together and recognise each others strengths and talents. Bad players cry 'noob', whine about other players and make pointless forum threads

Mercurio Riven · Jun 02, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

doesnt matter if its Pve or pvp. Warriors do the most sustained dps out of all classes in the game,eles attain the best spikes. Both are needed for groups, same with with Rangers.

Actually, Rangers are not needed in any group.

ginetti · Jun 02, 2005, 04:53 PM // 16:53

in hoh, a warrior got to my Ele/Mes (i was standing back using AoE and such, i put armor of earth up, and this guy, wearing some sort of freaky a$$ armor came up to me, frenzied and killed me withing 3-4 seconds before i could react.

I'd never seen my health go down so fast, adn i've been the victim of air ele's before.

This korean knew what he or she was doing, let me tell you that.

lightblade · Jun 02, 2005, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Warrior's damage all depends on enemy's armor...

Warrior vs. Warriors: you probably be doing 8-15 dmg per hit from normal attacks

Warrior vs. casters: you'll be doing 30-40 dmg per hit with normal attacks

salja Wachi · Jun 02, 2005, 05:14 PM // 17:14

there isw no doubt warriors are highly overrated. I am N/M and can take any warrior 1v1 and pwn them. that being said 1 warrior per properly thought out PvP group is beneficial. as long as you manage your energy and bring the right spells for the group you have ( flexability is a must) the Necro is maybe the most dangerous character in the game if it is played correctly.

there is no other class which is more versatile than the necro. death magic is pretty much useless in PvP, where you need high damage and curses to wipe out enemy monks.

so i suggest to you that if yo uare a ncero go and get Lingering Curse start hexing monks and watch them drop like flies ( that is if your team knows how to actually target an enemy properly)

kungfumonkey2 · Jun 02, 2005, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Just want to reinterate my point that warriors are tanks and casters are artillary.

And, this is to Wolf89 bragging about his 120Max Dmg. I get between 200-350dmg easily I consider that my average not my max. But my armor level is only 60 + what ever elemental damage. So, as has been stated a million times the game is equal. Trade offs for each class. Although I do consider my character a lot more sexy than others. That is where I win.

About Elems that blow their mana all in one shot, that isnt very smart, and I agree. We can call it Pre-mature manacjulation. I just prefer to go into every battle fully charged HP/Mana because you never know how long it is going to take or what is going to happen. I am sure that we all have taken on huge hordes, but then in the same quest/mission had 4 something a rathers obliterate your team. To the warriors that like to run off and take on the world I just say have fun, I can resurrect you afterwards.

An interesting case study would be for a team of 8 Elems and a team of 8 warriors (sub-class random and doesnt matter) And see who would do better in like Fissure, Underworld or Lornars. All characters must be the same progression thru the game though. There are a lot of variables to consider, still it would be interesting experiment.

LathalDraugr · Jun 02, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

there isw no doubt warriors are highly overrated. I am N/M and can take any warrior 1v1 and pwn them. that being said 1 warrior per properly thought out PvP group is beneficial. as long as you manage your energy and bring the right spells for the group you have ( flexability is a must) the Necro is maybe the most dangerous character in the game if it is played correctly.

there is no other class which is more versatile than the necro. death magic is pretty much useless in PvP, where you need high damage and curses to wipe out enemy monks.

so i suggest to you that if yo uare a ncero go and get Lingering Curse start hexing monks and watch them drop like flies ( that is if your team knows how to actually target an enemy properly)

When will people get it, just because they play a particular class that doesn't mean they have to invest their ego in it. And no, your necro could not go 1v1 versus a "warrior" and "pwn" them. If you have the right build and they have a wrong build then yes you might but there are certain combinations that 1v1 will slaughter a necro, for example if you use tormentor armour and they're using judges insight you're probably going to die very quickly. Any class can beat any other class 1v1 and can be beaten 1v1 by any class thats why this is a team game you have to cover the rest of your team and rely on them doing the same.

There are no good and bad classes only good/bad builds and good/bad use of a build.

Great Gjl · Jun 02, 2005, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by kungfumonkey2

I get between 200-350dmg easily I consider that my average not my max.

I love it when people back up their arguments by pulling random figures out of their arse.

This is exactly the reason why there should never be a PvP kill counter - too much ego, not enough teamwork. I don't think the monks are going to love having their 'effectiveness' judged by how quickly they can kill enemies.

Your little 'experiment' won't exactly prove anything either, since this game was never balanced for such rediculously lopsided teams. However, I do love the way you've tried to add 'rules' for your new game such as 'All characters must be the same progression thru the game though.' Almost as subjective as seeing 'who would do better in like Fissure, Underworld or Lornars.'

If we're talking about PvP (the only place where 'effectiveness' is worth discussing) then wether a warrior or elementalist is more efficient at dealing damage usually depends on what the other team is using, so you really can't make a blanket statement about one being better than the other, even at something so apparently easy to gauge as damage per second.

kungfumonkey2 · Jun 02, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Well yes it is a general number out of my arse after playing with my character, and observing her different damage amounts to different monsters for 200 hours (/age tells you how long you have played), and is a rough average of her damage delt to monsters post ascsencion. If you would like I could easily run thru the shiver peaks and Ring of Fire and calculate the average of my numbers, but I do not believe I will not be far off. Hence for my 200-350 range. I did not give a specific number, but an AVERAGE range. Sometimes I only do 100 sometimes 400, but I was refering to AVERAGE damage.

I believe the whole thread has been PVE, PVP has way to many variables to try and caluclate data accurately.

No blanket statement made about one class being better. Read my 3rd sentence of my opening paragraph again.

The reason I chose those areas is becaues they seem to spawn the same amounts/types of monsters. You need a common testing ground. You cant have one group go thru Ruins of Surmia and another Fissure of Woe.

I also believe I started off with CASE STUDY. If you do not know what a case study is here is the definition as by Merriam-Webster, should help you out at what I was trying to say:

case study
Function: noun
1 : an intensive analysis of an individual unit (as a person or community) stressing developmental factors in relation to environment

Individual unit= Elem group and Warrior group.
Developmental Factors: Success/failure as a purely Elem or Warrior group.
Relation to environment: One of the areas I mentioned in the game or another?

I feel that PVP does measure effectiveness, and stresses personal ability more than PVE. I feel that PVE deals more with class.

salja Wachi · Jun 02, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

sorry to tell you that i candd and do pwn any warrior. it does not matter what their build. i do not know how long and at what level your play is at but i can and do pwn any warrior out there. whne they introduce 1v1 you can I can go at it as many times as you like. there is no warrior build that can beat me period.

LathalDraugr · Jun 02, 2005, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

sorry to tell you that i candd and do pwn any warrior. it does not matter what their build. i do not know how long and at what level your play is at but i can and do pwn any warrior out there. whne they introduce 1v1 you can I can go at it as many times as you like. there is no warrior build that can beat me period.

You might be able to "pwn" any warrior monk at lvl10 in the ascalon arena but try playing in the HoH for a few minutes and you'll quickly realise that a necros strength is not 1v1 against a warrior. As for the talk (and thats all it is) of when they introduce 1v1 blah blah.... It's never going to happen because as I said it would be entirely random who won as it would be a game of scissors,paper,rock with near infinite options. That said I don't think I'm such a great player that I can make unbeatable builds, in fact I can think of several builds which would "pwn" my warrior it's just that none of them are necro/mesmers.

I don't think necros or mesmers have any real warrior denial skills as far as I can see. The best they've got is two mesmer spells that can blind a warrior, the damage output is nothing compared to a warriors 1v1, as a N/Me is a support chara not a damage dealer. And with no warrior denial it comes down to damage output. N/Me might be very scary to my casters it might be scary if they're supporting another tank or damage dealer or a well built ranger but 1v1 versus a warrior it's not going to work well, if at all.

And if your build is so great I suggest you post it in the builds section. I'm sure people like Blackace and Ensign will be happy to get a certified guaranteed warrior killer, especially one that uses a necro primary as they're somewhat under-represented in PvP at the moment. OTOH if you can get them to tell me your build will kill any warrior I might believe you.

Akshara · Jun 02, 2005, 09:53 PM // 21:53

I've gotta say, it sounds like a lot of you encounter poorly played Warriors only, which may be a symptom of it being an easily approachable class. Just as there are Elementalists that use up too much energy too quickly or don't time their aoe attacks well, there are Warriors who aren't very effective with handling their skills well.

Warriors aren't just about being a meat shield. Their sustained DPS can help to finish off groups that didn't fall to an aoe, and to do major damage while everyone else is recharging. They can protect healers and spellcasters when someone targets them.

Yeah, my warrior can't do 300 dmg on a single attack, but he can do +80 damage on each strike very quickly using very little energy or adrenaline. Most creatues he encounters are brought down in just a few strikes, and with a Necro secondary there are lots of ways to really mess up a foe or make them more susceptible to damage quickly. Warriors can do a lot to help make an Elementalist's attacks more effective.

An either/or situation isn't the wisest choice, regardless of which class can do the most damage. When an Elementalist and a Warrior work together to combine their damage potentials and respective strengths, then we're talking about something...

Unfortunately, I've rarely come across a thoughtful Elementalist who worked well with a team, though when I did it was awesome. Mostly they either think they can tank and pull aggro since they are such uber godly damage dealers and the healer will just take care of them, or they don't know how to time their spells very well and just spam all they have at each group encounter and run out of juice. The most effective Elementalists I've run across so far are Monks and Mesmers using the Ele primary for energy storage. It's kinda sad, honestly.

It would be great to have a solid Elementalist who knows what they're doing in a group for missions regularly. Sounds like you all could use to have the same experience with a Warrior...

Zeru · Jun 02, 2005, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Heh Blackace gave everyone the answer on the first page yet the arguing still goes on.

It's rather simple.

Ele's are spike damage. With their long recharges and high mp costs they are designed to throw max damage in a very short period and then have a cooldown period where they are firing relatively few spells (and please don't say flare unless you mean early game pve, it's just awful later).

Warriors, and to a lesser extent Rangers, do the best damage per second over an extended fight. Their skills recharge fast and they either don't use energy for many or their energy costs are incredibly slim. Their base damage may not be great even with skills but when you start stacking buffs like soh, ji, conjures, and various preps, it builds up very fast.

Xellos · Jun 02, 2005, 10:40 PM // 22:40

No, Blackace is right, but the common mindset is misexpressed. The complaint isn't about warriors doing great damage, it's the fact that under the current state of the game, warriors do jack squatt under traditional means. Your war/mo uber high damage build means nothing since you hit like 25% of your hits from ward/aegis, not to mention seeding and enchantment abuse finally catching up to the middle tier players. Warriors still work, but they have to sacrifice some dps in order to be more accurate. So they are no longer "dominating" in DPS, since reality is, a high damage tombs build only works if your team caters to support you. If the warriors are going to be warrior heavy, their going to need to find ways to hit the target.

Rigor Mortis and Warriors Cunning comes to mind, but cunning just plain blows with 60 second recharge. Rigor is pretty good, but it all depends on the coordination and skill. And since warriors are sustainable damage, rigor has to last a pretty long time on the target for the warriors to pull off the job, and that's if it doesn't get removed, or if the target doesn't get seeded and such.

I'm just iffy about the warriors relying on one or two skills, I've seen warriors fight groups who don't abuse the evade/block moves that much, and they do real well. Problem is, when you do come across those groups, your not going to do squatt. It's just the flavour that sets the use of the class. Look at necros now, they seem a bit more useful then before

Zeru · Jun 02, 2005, 10:49 PM // 22:49

You are right but I don't think anyone else has mentioned that yet

Half of it's been on pve where buffs like you gave were never used; it's just people comparing bad warriors to good eles and rare circumstances and vice versa.

Plus I think that 'flavour' of the month will be rather long for enchant stacking until debuffing is made better.