Curse

Yamat · Jun 02, 2005, 01:09 AM // 01:09

There seems to be a strange misconception that warriors actually kill things in guild wars. Warriors probably have the worst damage per second of any profession out there--its the casters that kill enemies. Warriors are a shield to protect casters... nothing more.

The more warriors out there that realize this, the better for everyone.

BTW, I have two warriors in my 4 character slots, as well as one monk and one ele. Hands down the ele does disgusting damage... but smiting monks are pretty awe inspiring too... and I played a Mesmer throughout Beta, so I'm not "fresh off the boat" here!!

It's sad how many people won't pick Necros, Mesmers or Ele's post L20 because they don't understand them...

BlaineTog · Jun 02, 2005, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Wha choo talkin' 'bout? Warriors have quite a good damage rate IMX.

DarrenJasper · Jun 02, 2005, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Are you talking about PvP or PvE?

In PvE, warriors are exactly that. Meatshields to soak up blows because the AI isn't smart enough to do anything but beat on the character standing in front of them, regardless of whether they're the most heavily armored.

In PvP, warriors should throw defense to the wind and aim to do as much damage as they possibly can. Now while it's true that in pure damage output a warrior will probably never compare to an ele, I think they make up for it with neat tricks like knockdown, bleeding, cripple, etc. They're also useful for body-blocking people to corner them for the takedown. Warriors shouldn't be underestimated.

Yamat · Jun 02, 2005, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Sorry, I should have said PvE...

I keep hearing from my caster friends that they can't get into groups because everyone just wants warriors and monks. I mean, paleeez. Who wants to wait for a warrior to chip away at a monster when one fireball will finish it??!

Too may W/Mo out there need to watch how fast they take something down with a good Necro or Ele behind them, or Mesmer.. hell, even a smiting Monk does more damage than a Warrior!

Don't restrict your invites and ignore the casters... they are the ones killing the monsters for you.

spiritofcat · Jun 02, 2005, 01:54 AM // 01:54

In defence of groups looking for Warriors and Monks, I often find myself in a group of 3 or 4 casters and we just need a monk and a couple of warriors to round out the team. We only ever advertise for Warriors and Monks because they're harder to find than the other 4 classes.
I always let casters into the group until there's only a couple of spaces left then go looking for tanks and healers.

Jun 02, 2005, 01:57 AM // 01:57

doesnt matter if its Pve or pvp. Warriors do the most sustained dps out of all classes in the game,eles attain the best spikes. Both are needed for groups, same with with Rangers.

Eclair · Jun 02, 2005, 01:59 AM // 01:59

I stopped bothering with w/mos and monks for quite a bit now. I just randomly invite people, and if we don't get a monk, I'll just grab the henchies. I have found that w/mos generally don't add much to the party, as a tank really isn't needed most of the time because mobs still go for the casters and 1 or 2 warriors isn't going to be blocking very well. Only good use of w/mos I've seen lately is having them run away and res the team later.

Yamat · Jun 02, 2005, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

doesnt matter if its Pve or pvp. Warriors do the most sustained dps out of all classes in the game,eles attain the best spikes. Both are needed for groups, same with with Rangers.

I have to totally disagree with your first point... unless you are talking about a no-time-to-rest 15 min battle, which never happens in PvE. With a few exceptions, combat is over in 1-2 minutes, mostly less. No warrior around can beat an Ele for dps in that time.

I do agree with your last point though--all professions add something to a group. It just seems there are a lot of people out there who don't realize this.

Narcissus · Jun 02, 2005, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

doesnt matter if its Pve or pvp. Warriors do the most sustained dps out of all classes in the game,eles attain the best spikes. Both are needed for groups, same with with Rangers.

Quoted for truth

Jun 02, 2005, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

I have to totally disagree with your first point... unless you are talking about a no-time-to-rest 15 min battle, which never happens in PvE. With a few exceptions, combat is over in 1-2 minutes, mostly less. No warrior around can beat an Ele for dps in that time.

I do agree with your last point though--all professions add something to a group. It just seems there are a lot of people out there who don't realize this.

Actually it does matter. The only exceptions are when you have eles playing with dbl attunements for 80% spell reduction costs, Ether Prodigy or Ether Renewal on at most medium recharge skills to make them sustain themselves longer(but not infinetly like Warriors and Rangers). In a 2 minute fight an ele, especially Air and Earth Eles are going to hit downtime. It does happen in PvE because just like monks, Elementalists have to wait on energy regen and recharge times. Warriors can hit 80-90 dps easily, and with boosts from necros or monks should be hitting 100+ without trouble if you're using axes or hammers, or swords with Hundred Blades.

The reason why Warriors and Rangers excel at sustained DPS in most cases is because Warriors dont rely on energy for majority of their offense, and their recharge times are usually governed by adrenaline which makes them able sustain damage until the target is dead. Rangers while relying on energy get better sustained DPS through Expertise, lowering energy on just about everything they have, while getting tools to leverage damage better than an elementalist can over the long run(Preps and Tiger's Fury).

Spike · Jun 02, 2005, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Well my ele/me can kill stuff FAR FAR faster then my w/mo can. Fire storm then metor shower and theres not much left unless your talking about uber level stuff like the end missions. Of course my W/Mo can wade in to a group of things and usualy comes out alive where as my E/me could'nt. But each prof has a role to play and when they do it well its remarkable how "easy" the game becomes. I had been told how hard thunderhead keep was, but thanks to a great group I did it 1st time, same with ring fo fire.

DrSLUGFly · Jun 02, 2005, 04:08 AM // 04:08

I know what you mean. I saw my first bone dragon last night. Largest enemy I've fought yet, level 18 I think (I'm 17) and I was quite disappointed at how quickly I killed it and how little my henchies helped. It was pretty damn cool though, it's neck and tail were both longer than me and before it fell it must have stood twice my height...

God I love this game!

EDIT: flare, firestorm, lesser energy glyph, fireball, flare, pheonix (hits for 200 when standing right on the mob). Everything splashes, everything does min. 100 dmg (except flare) and by the time the pheonix is launched the fireball is almost recharged and by the time the fireball is recharged and relaunched the lesser nrg is recharged and the pheonix is ready to launch (for free) again.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jun 02, 2005, 04:24 AM // 04:24

KOR can go with just warrior and monks in their GvG build and kill everyone after heavily buffed... each strike they did was about 100 and with just 4 of them on you... you die in a few sec.

but thats the past in BWE... They can probably still do it... but they might not.. Since they got famous for doing it that everyone is expecting that.

Envy · Jun 02, 2005, 07:43 AM // 07:43

I have to disagree with this post. The trouble isn't the caster dealing damage but blowing their wad on 1-3 enemies out of 6. Firestorm is great, as are the other aoe spells, but its hard to get all of the mobs in one place long enough for it to kill them all. What about after you have shelled out 65 power worth of spells and there are 2 mobs left?
I am not saying casters arn't needed because they play a huge role taking down multiple concentrated enemies. It's the ones that spread out that will render a caster almost worthless.
You also have to think about all the noob warriors running around who have no idea what mobs make up a mission and have had the same hotbar setup since ascalon city. Swords are a GREAT example. Take running to the temple of ages and your average sword warrior. I have watched so many using gash and sever artery its not funny. Its the smart warriors that do the damage here. So many skills that are suited for doing extra damage and they continue to have bleed. Your secondary class helps alot too. I would pit a w/n with mark of pain/flurry in damage dealing with a pyro ele or a w/mo respecced to smite with Balthazars Spirit/Symbol of Wrath/Shield of Judgement.
You just dont find the warriors very often who play their class to its full potential.

Mercury Angel · Jun 02, 2005, 08:00 AM // 08:00

I'd say it's pretty conditional.

I dare you to say you beat the Lv 28 Beastmaster near Yaks Bend without a Ranger or Mesmer using Distracting Shot or Diversion when you first encountered the quest.
Try fighting an enchantment heavy monk team using all-out damage, and watch what happens. They'll shrug it off using skills like Life Bond to cut the damage in half, Protective Spirit to cap damage at 10% their max HP, etc.
Massive groups of any type of monsters will swarm and kill most people without a highly specialized build for the area. Try killing them with single hitting damage, while they chip you to death through sheer numbers. (I wouldn't count a warrior using AoE smiting spells a true warrior as opposed to a caster >.>)

Any broad sweeping generalization is bound to fail when put under certain conditions, and considering how many maps have sections where you find a lot of a certain type of monster, you almost certainly will find that condition.

Like saying "Warriors are the best tanks". Toss up Greater Conflagration and it's now Rangers that tank most effectively. Or if you're fighting a group of necro heavy monsters, or smiters, where your armor matters not a bit to their damage.

More to the point, warriors deal pretty heavy single hitting damage, and depending on their weapon, can focus on that and deal quite a bit over a short period, or still deal decent damage while providing support in another aspect, such as knockdowns.
Casters have the same type of variety in options to them, whether it's mass debuffing, AoE damage, single hitting, or control.
All have advantages and disadvantages in different conditions, and that's that, pretty much.

Numa Pompilius · Jun 02, 2005, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Playing a W/Me I have to say that for most of the PvE campaign, sword-wielding warriors DON'T have good damage-dealing. Final Blow & Galrath Slash are pretty wimpy, even with a sword skill of 12, and Hundred Blades is no longer available until you get to Undead Prince Rurik.

When soloing with henches I pull mobs with longbow, then switch to shield & sword and block them from getting to the casters, but I do as much damage to them through my secondary mesmer skills as through my warrior skills.

When grouping it's much the same except I rush mobs instead of pull (because PUGs aren't disciplined enough to wait while I pull groups with bow, so I rush to keep some distance to the casters and get the mob to concentrate on me).

My secondary, an Ele/Necro, does immensely more damage than my W/Me, can self-heal immensely more efficiently, and have a much easier time soloing with henches.

Personally I think warriors, especially sword warriors, are pretty gimped in PvE, especially in the later part of the game where much/most damage ignore armor.

LathalDraugr · Jun 02, 2005, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Playing a W/Me I have to say that for most of the PvE campaign, sword-wielding warriors DON'T have good damage-dealing. Final Blow & Galrath Slash are pretty wimpy, even with a sword skill of 12, and Hundred Blades is no longer available until you get to Undead Prince Rurik.

When soloing with henches I pull mobs with longbow, then switch to shield & sword and block them from getting to the casters, but I do as much damage to them through my secondary mesmer skills as through my warrior skills.

When grouping it's much the same except I rush mobs instead of pull (because PUGs aren't disciplined enough to wait while I pull groups with bow, so I rush to keep some distance to the casters and get the mob to concentrate on me).

My secondary, an Ele/Necro, does immensely more damage than my W/Me, can self-heal immensely more efficiently, and have a much easier time soloing with henches.

Personally I think warriors, especially sword warriors, are pretty gimped in PvE, especially in the later part of the game where much/most damage ignore armor.

The problem here is you can't really make generalised statements like this without qualifying them. If you mean that when you're playing PvE and the team attacks a mob then as an ele you will see higher yellow numbers and see them more often then yes that's true. That's because elementalists are much easier to get high damage output out of in the same way warriors are much easier to use as tanks than other classes, but that does not mean you can't get a good DPS from a warrior.

There are plenty of ways to get a high damage output warrior, unfortunately they require different skills from your standard PvE sword wielding warrior monk. Also warriors aren't just shields or damage dealers they can also inflict some nasty status effects (20% max hp loss is not what you call doing damage?) and they still have a few skills that can be used for general support (disrupting chop has helped kill plenty of healer bosses much quicker).

There's no such thing as a bad class there's only bad use of a class.

/Edit Oh and if you think warriors are gimped later in the game then you should have fun trying the last mission without them, thats one place where you need warrior tanks

bloodbob · Jun 02, 2005, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Caster do pretty pathetic damage once they hit 0 mana. Comparing damage done over 30 seconds would be quite different to damage done say over 5 minutes. Also you have to look at the distrubtion of stuff say casters are rather good a doing damage to a cluster of mobs but if there are many weak mobs spread out all over the place casters aren't that good.

And if you think groups refuse to pick elementals you certainly haven't been to the underworld.

Burem · Jun 02, 2005, 09:44 AM // 09:44

I know that my Elementalist can run without going down on mana for a rediculasly long time UNLESS my warriors are off chasing down the enemies casters instead of positioning themselves defensively so I don't have to chain knockdown/blind.

I'd appreciate warriors going a little more defensive, or atleast thinking about positioning more.

The thing is, though, that even an elementalist with a build specificly made to tank could do it. Almost every class has enough diversity to fill any role they want to. I think the problem comes about when everyone assumes what role a class is filling.

cannonfodder · Jun 02, 2005, 09:58 AM // 09:58

All points are valid, I'm a warrior/necro and certain hammer strikes can take half to 3 quarters of the hit points, while resurecting from the dead around, this lets the dead attack and gives me more time to inflict more damage..

But in missions/quests, a combination of all is the better option, but in my guild i'm there to protect the monks/casters plus kill the odd nasty with my hammer...plus the necro skills come in very handy.........