Curse

MuKen · Jun 20, 2005, 02:43 PM // 14:43

The spike damage ele seems to be a pretty popular concept, and the reasoning is solid. DPS outweighs all other things in trying to kill a person, so you give the monks as little time as possible to heal them. But it doesn't seem like any of the builds I've seen or read for this concept actually do the greatest amount of damage in the smallest possible amount of time. Looking over the available skills, it would seem to me that the following is the fastest damage that can be packed together. (note: this is theoretical and untested)

Ele/Mes
air:10
earth:11
e storage:10

Lightning Surge {Elite} - Hex Spell
After 3 seconds, target foe is knocked down and struck for 14-83 lightning damage. This spell causes exhaustion. 10 2 10

Aftershock - Spell
Nearby enemies are struck for 26-85 damage. Knocked down characters are struck for 10-56 additional damage. 10 3/4 10

Crystal Wave - Spell
Foes near you are struck for 10-82 damage, but are cured of any negative conditions. This spell ignores armor and magic resistance. 15 3/4 20

Obsidian Flame - Spell
Deal 22-94 damage to target foe. This spell ignores armor. This spell causes exhaustion. 5 2 5

Gale - Spell
Knockdown target foe for 3 seconds. This spell causes exhaustion. 50% failure chance with Air Magic of 4 or less. 5 1 5

Arcane Echo - Enchantment Spell
If you cast a "spell" in the next 10-26 seconds, Arcane Echo is replaced with that spell for 20 seconds. Arcane Echo ends prematurely if you use a non-spell skill. 15 2 30

Basically the idea is you start by casting lightning surge. Then you time an aftershock so that it hits as soon as possible after the damage from the surge kicks in, and follow immediately with crystal wave. If you time it correctly, thats ~300 damage in 1.5 seconds (.75 recovery after the aftershock and .75 to the next crystal wave, we don't count the casting time of aftershock or the recovery of CW because the damage occurs between those two).

Optionally, you can maybe try to fit in an obsidian flame after the lightning surge, but then your damage is a little more diluted to ~400 in 3 seconds (.75 ObFl recovery plus 1.5 total AfSh time plus .75 CrWa casting time). As such, I think I'd rather stick with the first option.

Now say you have maybe 3 guys doing this. This would require much tighter timing both on an individual and teamwork scale, but it would be theoretically possible to do about ~900 damage in 1.5 seconds (before armor). It'd be pretty damn hard for the monks to react in time to save whoever was on the receiving end of that.

Another possibility is to have one guy call a target and open up the attack with lightning surge - gale - aftershock - crystal wave. Since gale would up the knockdown time to 3 seconds, the other two could use lightning surge - arcane echo - aftershock - aftershock. With this it would be theoretically possible to do 1000+ damage in the same 1.5 seconds.

Comments?

Speedy · Jun 20, 2005, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Another skill that would be good to use if there happens to be a lot of warriors in the opposing group for this build would be whirlwind. Just stay grouped together and when they all attack, they can all be knocked down at once, and if timed right, all of you guys can aftershock for some really bad AoE damage.

MuKen · Jun 20, 2005, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Also wanted to add that the initial lightning surge - aftershock chain does ~220 on its own, and can occur in as small a window as your timing allows. Thus, three of you doing this will kill most people (depending on runes, armor, enchants, etc.) instantaneously without having to resort to the followup crystal wave. If the three of you are well practiced on coordinated timing, no monk would be able to save the target (maybe have somebody be a necro with a well-placed rend enchantments to seal the deal)

Tellani Artini · Jun 20, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Why not have a few people with 16 air magic for the air skills and a few more with 16 earth magic for the earth skills, instead of dividing everyone's attributes and making all of the spells weaker? I mean, you are trying to do damage here, right? An identical build for 3 players is not a team build.

MuKen · Jun 20, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellani Artini

Why not have a few people with 16 air magic for the air skills and a few more with 16 earth magic for the earth skills, instead of dividing everyone's attributes and making all of the spells weaker? I mean, you are trying to do damage here, right? An identical build for 3 players is not a team build.

The problem is we want all three people to use both the lightning surge and the aftershock. Lightning surge is a must, because it is the _only_ offensive spell that delays its damage, which is critical for the concept of creating a short 'spike' in damage. After that, the damage from aftershock is way beyond what you can do with any single air spell (and we want the singular spell that is timed along with the lightning surge to be as heavy as possible). Besides, we are only taking a very small hit by spreading out. If it's really that much of a concern, we can still max out earth and mostly max out air by going

earth: 12 (16)
air: 11 (14)
estorage: 6

or even

earth: 12 (16)
air: 12 (15)
estorage: 3

Unless we are going to have 3 people do lightning surge and 3 different people do the aftershock and crystal wave, but commiting 6 people to this doesn't seem wise.

Eclair · Jun 20, 2005, 07:23 PM // 19:23

One big problem is the really small range on aftershock and crystal wave. You're going to have to go right next to the monk. This means within smacking range of their warriors, etc. Not very healthy for 60 AL elementalists.

Minwanabi · Jun 20, 2005, 07:38 PM // 19:38

While it's a good idea in concept, I might hesitate to use lightning surge here - while a great skill, because of the delay, in that same delay, monks can be stacking a lot of stuff on a player. I mean, a prot spirit, RoF, shielding hands, life bond, you name it. They're going to have some stuff when you give them 3 seconds to react. At the same time, that's hard to pull off from a defensive standpoint, and you can always just time a lingering or rend to fit with the spike.

MuKen · Jun 20, 2005, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

One big problem is the really small range on aftershock and crystal wave. You're going to have to go right next to the monk. This means within smacking range of their warriors, etc. Not very healthy for 60 AL elementalists.

A good point. This can maybe be mitigated, though, since we are using earth as our major attribute. There are a lot of good defensive skills under earth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minwanabi

While it's a good idea in concept, I might hesitate to use lightning surge here - while a great skill, because of the delay, in that same delay, monks can be stacking a lot of stuff on a player. I mean, a prot spirit, RoF, shielding hands, life bond, you name it. They're going to have some stuff when you give them 3 seconds to react. At the same time, that's hard to pull off from a defensive standpoint, and you can always just time a lingering or rend to fit with the spike.

That's certainly true, especially if the monks know what's going on and notice all the eles clustering around someone. It's easy enough, though, for one of those eles to have a necro secondary and use rend enchantments in between the lightning surge and the aftershock, or even have a 4th player who is a necro take care of that.

It basically becomes a game of blackjack. The necro tries to put the rend as close to the spike as possible without being after it, and the monks try to do the same. Whoever is closer wins. However, the necro is at a huge advantage because it is his teammates who are choosing the target, and he has practiced timing his attack with theirs. The monk has to react to the situation, identifying the target and the timing of the spike.

Dazzler · Jun 20, 2005, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Throw out the earth and go with a 16 air instead. With a 16 air and the fact that your good dmg spells have 25% armor penetration, their damage is nearly the same as the level 13 aftershock without the downside of short range.

Lightning Surge
Chain Lightning

That should do about 220 dmg initially, which is the same amount that is projected above by Lightning Surge + Aftershock--plus you are far away from the target--and let me tell you, it is much easier to coordinate 3 ele's with this attack than it is to coordinate it such that all 3 get within aftershock range of the target at the same moment.

You are right that with the Earth you can follow up with Crystal Wave for more dmg only 1.5 seconds later ASSUMING the monk does not run like a mofo after the initial spike, which is highly likely.

But in the end, none of this talk matters. Take your team into pvp and see how it works.

Tuna · Jun 20, 2005, 08:13 PM // 20:13

2 things:

1. There is a hefty delay after casting aftershock to when you can cast your next skill. Your enemy will be far far away before you can get off crystal wave.

2. Gale doesn't last 3 seconds, all KD lasts roughly the same right now, regardless of modifiers (stonefist etc.)

grimmolly · Jun 20, 2005, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Watch out for nature rituals and rangers, they're coming into vogue as a response to these builds. It's not just KCHS anymore. I met three of these teams in the tombs on Saturday.

MuKen · Jun 20, 2005, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazzler

Lightning Surge
Chain Lightning

That should do about 220 dmg initially, which is the same amount that is projected above by Lightning Surge + Aftershock

That does sound quite reasonable, the thing I had been worried most about is the monk running around as soon as he knew he'd been targetted by lightning surge. That would make it harder for all 3 eles to get into aftershock range at the right moment.

I would try this myself, but I'm not in a guild big enough to have 3 eles with the right skillsets. Anybody else want to try it out and let me know how it goes? I'm curious as to how tough it is to coordinate 3 people to that degree.

Tuna: I didn't know that bit about the gale, thanks for the heads up. The crystal wave isn't as important, as the hope is that the initial spike will finish them off. If it doesn't, then the group should start using whatever attack spells they have on hand, and try to take advantage of the big lead on the healers the initial spike has given them.

keen · Jun 20, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

surge doesnt stack. knockdowns times are different e.g. water trident

Samra · Jun 20, 2005, 08:36 PM // 20:36

I have the same criticism of the earth build ... any spell that is really short range will be limited in high-end PvP unless you can use knockdown or slow spells to keep enemies from running away.

I used the Lightning Surge / Chain Lightning spike build as part of an air spike team last night, and it does work really well if you time it correctly. We were flattening targets very quickly, and had some impressive victories in 1 on 1 battles.

The problem, however, is exhaustion. Both spells cause exhaustion, so after several surges you're totally out of juice. That meant that we were in trouble whenever we faced multiple teams or were in a longer battle. We had some spectacular victories but no staying power.

I'm thinking it might be better to use Lightning Orb with Arcane Echo instead, to get around the exhaustion problem. Maybe you could also use Air and Elemental Attunement to lower the energy cost, although that leaves you vulnerable to Shatter Enchantment. Has anyone tried that? Any advice?

Dazzler · Jun 20, 2005, 08:38 PM // 20:38

That's a shame that surge doesn't stack. I was wondering if it did. I take it Wastrel's doesn't stack either?

Edit: Orb has the advantage of no exhaustion, but the major disadvantage that it is a projectile that must travel AND hit. It USUALLY hits, but it is by no means automatic when people are running around randomly. And of course, Chain Lightning will do AOE damage to others nearby, where Orb will not. Chain is also instant effect once the CT is spent, so if it is a race to kill a wounded enemy before he is healed, Chain Lightning will give you a slight edge.

It's a trade off and which you choose depends on what you think is more important.

So I personally prefer to echo the Chain Lightning and consequences be damned

djwheat · Jun 20, 2005, 08:38 PM // 20:38

I gotta be honest... I think there are some pretty significant flaws in ALOT of the Ele Air Spike builds. Everyone relies on spells which cause exhaustion... and in a "stamina" fight (ie any fight that lasts longer than 5 minutes), you render your entire casting team unusable.

This could be one of those "neverending debates" because people argue that if you drop 2 monks in this fashion, the rest of the team can sweep things up. But honestly, if someone gets spiked in the first minute, it's usually NOT a problem at all (unless the team is smart and uses Frozen Soil or something similar) to get one guy back up and then continue from that point.

We enjoy fighting all Ele teams, because after the 3rd or 4th spike they unleash... it's pretty obvious that they are worthless when they keep casting Lightning Strike on you.

We run endurance Ele builds, and I can assure you that 10 minutes into the battle, their just as ready to spike as they were in the opening minutes.

PS Chain Lightning = Worthless against a team who properly spreads out too (which when you fight the top 50+ guilds you'll notice do quite well).

MuKen · Jun 20, 2005, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by keen

surge doesnt stack. knockdowns times are different e.g. water trident

Doh. Guess that blows that idea...

Tuna · Jun 20, 2005, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by keen

surge doesnt stack. knockdowns times are different e.g. water trident

Some skills may be different than others, but generally you will never get more than about 1 - 1.5sec KD.

Xanthar · Jun 21, 2005, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Lightning Surge is also (listed here on GWGuru as) a Hex spell, meaning it should also be subject to a well timed hex removal and thus could benefit from some other hex being cast above it

grimmolly · Jun 21, 2005, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Yes, most teams won't catch surge in time with remove hex as it's a 2 second cast, but my arena N/Me build usually catches it with inspired hex. Certainly, any quickening zephyr monk builds should have no problem hitting it with smite hex if they're good and the QZ/Fertile Season/Winter teams should give spike builds the most trouble in general. Personally, I find it a cop-out to consider delayed damage in a sustained dps equation.

What assumptions are you making? One, surge stacks, which isn't true. Two, damage is against a 60 AL target vs ele, which you don't know. Three, no ward against elements, harm, or winter or fertile season spirit. Four, surge won't be removed. Five, the targets aren't smart enough to scatter when they see a pack of eles charging in. Six, rend or lingering hit the target at the right time. Personally, with all the bad air spike builds nowadays, I'd use lightning surge instead on the off-target to get the monks to waste their prot spells on the wrong person.