Curse

Prom Night Surprise · Jun 04, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElevenBravo

I can understand 1 of each spirit maybe per team but 4 frozen soils in the same area sounds like an exploit to me.

The spirits don't stack, and if they did, they'd stack for both teams. Multiple copies is to cover more area, make opponent's targetting more difficult, make them harder to get rid of, and blocking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElevenBravo

Not a very skillful tactic but effective.

The build underwent a number of revisions--it's not like we simply said let's drop a gazillion spirits on the map and see what happens. On the contrary, we decided to eat humble pie and suffer some embarassing losses to BEAT the FOTM, rather than copy it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElevenBravo

Be on the look out for it cause it sucks to go up against.

At least we can agree on something

Eight Rooks · Jun 04, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumblyfish

And, might I add, most Guilds that caught on to this actually won.

Seriously, I'm not sure about "most". (Although this may change.

) And they were close run things when we were beaten - that's partly why it was fun. It's not as if they worked out what we were doing and then exploited our fatal flaw - the basic idea pretty much doesn't have one at this moment in time IMO.

Though again, yes, it IS counterable. Very much so. Unless you've overspecialised to start with in the belief you're now invincible. :P

Mordread · Jun 04, 2005, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Hah, I remember fighting your guild in the last couple days. Seeing all those spirits was definetly a bit confusing. At first on the minimap I thought all the dots were people, hehe. Thats a pretty inventive strategy, good show!!

ElevenBravo · Jun 04, 2005, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eight Rooks

The "no skill" bit is bull

Yea, it takes no skill. A monkey could go around and spam spirits everywhere. It's takes player skill and team coordination to use elem spike damage. Elem spike damage is all active skills that require timing and mana management and team work. Dropping spirits everywhere is more of a passive skill where you just drop it and forget it. Doesn’t require any active player management. It’s not like manning a turret or something. Ill give you kudos was being resourceful but I think in the end the strat is bad for pvp and since it is so effective more and more guilds are going to start using it just to win. And then pvp will be a big spirit spam fest. Elem spike damage sucks but at least I know when we lose it was because of a player, not a 10 spirits spammed across the battle field. And it doesn’t matter that they dont stack. If you have 5 frozen soils up you have to kill 5 frozen soils to get rid of the effect. And yes it effects both teams but its obvious you guys built your build around the spirit spam to lessen the its effects.

chiizu · Jun 04, 2005, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Personally, I thought it was a fun build to play against.

Sting · Jun 04, 2005, 09:41 PM // 21:41

I can see it now. OHH CRAP NERF THE RANGERS

. Finally a tactic a ranger can actually use and its being called upon to be nerfed. I read about this during Beta's (mainly last beta weekend) havnt used it myself but its about time rangers get some revenge LOL.

Prom Night Surprise · Jun 04, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElevenBravo

Yea, it takes no skill.

<snip>

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElevenBravo

And yes it effects both teams but its obvious you guys built your build around the spirit spam to lessen the its effects.

eheh.

Kebren · Jun 05, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElevenBravo

Yea, it takes no skill. A monkey could go around and spam spirits everywhere. It's takes player skill and team coordination to use elem spike damage. Elem spike damage is all active skills that require timing and mana management and team work. Dropping spirits everywhere is more of a passive skill where you just drop it and forget it. Doesn’t require any active player management. It’s not like manning a turret or something. Ill give you kudos was being resourceful but I think in the end the strat is bad for pvp and since it is so effective more and more guilds are going to start using it just to win. And then pvp will be a big spirit spam fest. Elem spike damage sucks but at least I know when we lose it was because of a player, not a 10 spirits spammed across the battle field. And it doesn’t matter that they dont stack. If you have 5 frozen soils up you have to kill 5 frozen soils to get rid of the effect. And yes it effects both teams but its obvious you guys built your build around the spirit spam to lessen the its effects.

I don't think that either takes much skill, or that the game in general takes much skill. The reason why groups win is because the group they are facing just doesn't have the counter for the build they are running. Air gank groups are so popular now that its standard to see PUGs recruiting monks with prot spirit and spellbreaker. When you start to see that I think it's time to move on to something else.

In order to win often you really gotta think outside the box and make build that are different from what everybody else is running. It's funny watching groups I used to run with get rolled over by tank trains that they would have completely stomped on 3 weeks ago when the tank trains were so populars. Only difference is they swapped out Aegis and Ward Vs Melee for stuff to stop the Air Gank guilds. Running the build of the week or month will do nothing but put you in range for the counter of the week. If you've played magic the gathering then you know exactly what I mean. Sometimes running last weeks inferior build with some tweaks is more effective than running this weeks build. With all that said, I'd much rather run a balanced build with lots of counters but ones that won't completely shut down the group.

So, kudos to the spirit groups for giving rangers a purpose in the game. Once these builds get popular you'll start to see people taking the alter early just so the ranger groups can't go spirit crazy. Will make HoH a bit more interesting

Mumblyfish · Jun 05, 2005, 02:40 AM // 02:40

(All non-KCHS names censored... and sorry for the MSPaintage)

Now, don't take this the wrong way. This isn't an ego trip. I'm honestly worried that having one dedicated ritualist is considered an exploit. An exploit worthy of being reported to Arena. An exploit worthy of being banned. Even worse, this is the Hall of Heroes, the elite, and the players there would sooner call hacks over something they clearly don't understand (the sea of wtfs) than try to actually counter it. Or, even blame themselves for letting us have so many rituals. Is the PvP crowd really so frightened of anything that can beat their build the first time they come against it? I shudder.

The highlight of this (and probably the reasoning behind the shouting match) is when we realised KCHS were not going to fight off two teams at the altar. We only had two Monks, no enchantments, and our health was dropping fast. So we bit the bullet, Echo'd Edge of Extinction (along with Serpent's Quickness) and covered the map with it. Hence, when our team died shortly afterwards, everyone else did with us still holding the altar. Is this abuse? It seems to me like clever use of combining skills and quick thinking. Placing many copies of EoE, spreading them out to make up for the lackluster range. Our opponents could have easily killed the spirits, or even killed the Ranger placing the things, but instead they didn't pay attention to their status bar, wiped us out with Meteor, and spelled doom for every guild on the map.

It's late, so sorry if this is numbing exposition, but do you think this is truly an exploit, or are those crying exploit simply not countering effectively?

Studio Ghibli · Jun 05, 2005, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Someone hand Bravo a tissue and some no-tears shampoo.

ZeroZero · Jun 05, 2005, 04:26 AM // 04:26

I am a officer in KCHS and happend to witness this build first hand and be with some of the guys when they used it. I am proud to say that too. My guild members are some of the most inventive guys and I am glad that they came up with a new build to win HoH with. It really gives our guid some noteriety. Mabey it's not good, but as they say, there is no such thing as bad publicity. I would like to shower praise on the PvP teams of KCHS for coming up with this. Great job guys! Keep up the good work!

Studio Ghibli · Jun 05, 2005, 04:27 AM // 04:27

That EoE is beautiful.

I'm telling the resident ranger in my guild about this, and he echoes my amazement. This is awesome.

Ludic · Jun 05, 2005, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Kansas City Hotsteppers is a European guild?

ZeroZero · Jun 05, 2005, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ludic

Kansas City Hotsteppers is a European guild?

No, but we have a fair amount of european members and one of them was leading the party that time.

*tyler* · Jun 05, 2005, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ludic

Kansas City Hotsteppers is a European guild?

American Guild, but we have several Europeans in our guild. The message is based off whoever was leading the group at that time.

Rockmonkey Thefunky · Jun 05, 2005, 07:43 AM // 07:43

The whole point is that chain lightning is a fad, its not the end all of builds, and the ritual build beats it, in turn the ritual build isnt the end all of builds either, something will come along to counter it and it will be the next big thing.

Or maybe! Just maybe, more balanced teams with more varied professions pooling their abilities that work together to better the team will start popping up.

oh, and here's a lovely idea, how about learning the other professions and their skills so you know what the other team is doing if they stray from the cookie cutter build of the moment, or you could simply scroll over your enchantments/hexes in the top corner and see what it is that is effecting you and your team.

Seriously though, knowledge of the game and the skills and their weaknesses will help to counter what you come across on the spot, assuming you have a well rounded and skilled team that can communicate and follow directions, thats the ultimate goal isn't it?

A more educated player population will only better the community, and maybe the pickup groups will stop being so horrible 90% of the time, forcing players to pick henchmen over their real player counterparts.

[/rant]

Virtuoso · Jun 05, 2005, 08:39 AM // 08:39

You're proud that you "came up with" a ritual build? Are you kidding me? That lame crap has been around for a LONG time. If you look back in my posting history you can see me bitching about it in Beta. The point is, it is an abusive tactic, espcially in GvG. I have gone up against guilds that spam rituals and just sit on their lord. There is no way to kill all the spirits and there is no way to kill all of the people spamming them. If you kill one or two they will just get ressed at the 2 minute interval. We were fighting one guild for over 90 minutes. They all had 60% death penalty, yet we could not finish them off because we could never kill more than 2 or 3 in a 2 minute interval. They would sit there and talk shit in local chat at the same time, trying to grief us into quitting. The point is, it IS an abusive build, just no one has abused it to the point of A.net noticing it just yet.

You say there is a "counter" for it. Really? I'd like to hear it, cause no one I've talked to can come up with one.

-Virt

*tyler* · Jun 05, 2005, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtuoso

You're proud that you "came up with" a ritual build? Are you kidding me? That lame crap has been around for a LONG time. If you look back in my posting history you can see me bitching about it in Beta. The point is, it is an abusive tactic, espcially in GvG. I have gone up against guilds that spam rituals and just sit on their lord. There is no way to kill all the spirits and there is no way to kill all of the people spamming them. If you kill one or two they will just get ressed at the 2 minute interval. We were fighting one guild for over 90 minutes. They all had 60% death penalty, yet we could not finish them off because we could never kill more than 2 or 3 in a 2 minute interval. They would sit there and talk shit in local chat at the same time, trying to grief us into quitting. The point is, it IS an abusive build, just no one has abused it to the point of A.net noticing it just yet.

You say there is a "counter" for it. Really? I'd like to hear it, cause no one I've talked to can come up with one.

-Virt

EoE to kill all the spirits.

Virtuoso · Jun 05, 2005, 09:04 AM // 09:04

40 damage every time a spirit dies isn't enough. When you have 15 or so spirits that are all placed at different intervals they aren't all going to die at the same time and it won't be enough to kill them all. Not to mention that their monks were healing them and using heal area to keep everything alive. Our players were not taking any damage at all.

Even still, that is a near useless skill in PvP. Are we supposed to make sure we have a Ranger with Beast Mastery and EoE just to combat this one tactic when all the rest of the time it is completely worthless?

-Virt

Studio Ghibli · Jun 05, 2005, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Yes.

Yes, you should.