Curse

Locke · Jun 21, 2005, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Good thing Guild Wars isn't a fasion show.

A Ranger/Mesmer isn't bad, but I think fast casting is pretty important when trying to interrupt not only that, rangers don't get the best of energy reserves to work with. However, I really don't know, since I've never worked with a mesmer or ranger to know the difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Oriath

I'm a R/Me, and I base myself on Conjure Phantasm + Poison + Bleeding + Incendiary Arrows (if I can get it up in time). I know what you're thinking. "But the max you can go with degen is 10!" Well, you're right AND wrong with that. Trying doing a healing breeze on someone that has a 15 degen set on them. It WILL NOT negate the effects of the degen, even at a full 10 regen. It will bring the 5 degen that you never see back into play, and guess what? Unless a monk knows what they're doing, the first one they're going to cast is Healing Breeze because they think they can just negate the whole degen process, which doesn't work with my build in most cases.

Yes, it can be countered, but it's not like this is all my build can do.

I'm sorry but in PVP degens simply don't work. You think the degens you put on someone won't be mended? You're just making the healer's job easier, because the more ailments you stack on the guy the more hitpoints he will be healed for by mend ailment for each remaining condition. Degens simply aren't effective.

Also, smart monks don't use healing breeze against a degen. Not only that, they don't even bring it.

Moskel · Jun 21, 2005, 04:09 PM // 16:09

I guess you haven't run into a degen team yet

I've died to a group that did 0 direct damage, they were all Monks, N/Me or Me/N. Unless you have a team to specifically counter it (lots of Martyr/Purge, tons of Hex removal) when everyone on your team has -10 degen (don't bother with regen heals because they give you more than -10) and your monks have no enchantments and can only cast 1/4th second animation spells you'll see that degen can work just fine.

smedge · Jun 21, 2005, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm sorry but in PVP degens simply don't work.

You go ahead and keep thinking that, I'll keep pwning you with them.

Seriously, how many characters can hold a consistent 20 DPS for 20 seconds while only attacking 3 times (poison, phantasm, phantasm), I only have to attack again to interrupt. I have killed a boatload of monks with degen and interrupt. If you think having multiple people at -9 or -10 degen while the rest of the team is doing their work makes a monks life easier you are simply ignoring reality.

Mend ailment kills the poison not the conjure phantasm, and I just have to tap poison arrow again at a cost of 5 nrg. Mend ailment is also the reason I only use one "condition" in my degen scheme. Conjure is not a condition. So they may remove poison but they wont get any health out of it and the poison will be back in a heartbeat, stacking with my phantasm. Also I never waste my dist shot on mend ailment, it's hard to catch due to it's near isntant cast time and why bother (read above), I save it for the heals or hex remove.

Just because you have not been able to make a successful degen build doesnt mean there is not one out there. You just have to put a lot of thought into it then use trial and error (and research on opposing skills) to tweak.

burianek · Jun 21, 2005, 04:59 PM // 16:59

In my humble opinion, the most important thing you can do with any build is try to make a similar build with a different primary and see if it 'fits' better. If so, the build you are working on is garbage.

For example, I can't justify taking conjure phantasm with me in all seriousness when I know there may very well be a mesmer on the other team that's extended his degen time with the skill to something like 30 seconds (quite possible). You're building a second rate character if you take this skill as a ranger. Someone else can do that degen better than you. Trying to justify that you're stacking the skill on top of another degen isn't a valid argument either, unless your team consists of no mesmers. You're doubling up on his job, and doing it poorly. Analogy: why aren't R/Mos bringing orison and word of healing to try to supplement the healing of the monks on the team? Answer: it's just not efficient. You have to trust that whoever else on your team who's job it is to do it, is doing it better than you. When you're picking secondary skills to complement your primary, you have to look for the 1+1 = 2.5 combinations, rather than the 1+1 = 2 (if you follow). Don't try to do two jobs, pick skills that remove limitations from, or further enhance your core skills. Characters that can perform multiple functions adequately are in general far inferior to characters that do one thing extremely well.

This kind of begs the question, what are rangers best at that no one else can do? (and more specifically R/Me's). That's what they should be doing to efficiently help out the team. That's going to transform them from the 'jack of all trades master of none', (that no one wants to party with), to a specialized irreplaceable member of the team.

The OP has hit on one of the staples, debilitating shot is perhaps the most efficient, consistently usable, energy denial skill in the game. For the recharge time, and the amount you can get off in a certain time period, rangers are to energy degen what warriors are to DPS, steady, consistent, and punishing unless neutralized.

Therefore, many sucessful r/me builds are based off of energy degen, most of them using echo + debil.

What else are rangers 'best' at?

Not too much to tell the truth. They're kind of second best at everything aren't they? Think about it for a second. What can they do that is the best of any class?

They can apply conditions, like poison, bleeding, on fire, blindness relatively easily and (mostly) from range. So you see quite a few conditioner builds, specifically with r/me's bringing fragility.

Let's put our heads together. Rangers have spirits, those are unique; and traps, those are unique too. Is there some sort of construct between spirits, traps, and the mesmer side that brings synergies? I'll think about it. Maybe someone else will come up with something good as well.

arnansnow · Jun 21, 2005, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Winter, Great Conflaguration, and the Mantras probably work great together.

burianek · Jun 21, 2005, 05:18 PM // 17:18

hehe, I think I've seen that posted above ...

The answer remains that it works excellent and is used quite often for team builds I believe. Prob not a good idea for someone looking for a PUG, but it's certainly worth considering for a team build.

smedge · Jun 21, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12

I disagree.

You are leaving out the human element in this game. Characters who fill a role other than the percieved primary role of their class are quite useful due to the surprise element. Rangers have the luxury of being targeted last usually. I can spend that time annoying with conditions or I can spend that time killing with degen/interrupt. I'll take killing and so will my guild/team.

True there may be another mesmer on my team but whats to say we are focusing on the same target. You are taking a very closed minded approach to your builds. Anet would not have added the ability to have a secondary class if the only useful thing to do with a char is it's primary job.

Surely you realize how fast mesmers are targeted due to their monk shutdown capabilities. Having a powerful degen/interrupt combo on my ranger keeps a drain on the enemy even after the mesmer is history.

This thread is getting old. I say again if you think the only job that is valid for a char to perform is their most obvious one, you are missing out.
I am telling you from experience i have had lots of success with this char. You are arguing with me not based on actual play experience but with skill math. What looks great on paper is not always so great in battle and vice versa.

Rangers are one of the most powerful degenners in the game and also one of the most powerul interrupters. The fact i chose phantasm was because of some things I said earlier.

You can disagree till you are blue in the face but until I stop racking up PvP kills I am going to keep using what IS working. I implore any of you who are reading this looking for build ideas to try what I am talking about. You will not be dissapointed. I have only mentioned 4 of my 8 skills, the others add to the potency of this build. Second rate I think not.

burianek · Jun 21, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by smedge

This thread is getting old.... You are arguing with me not based on actual play experience but with skill math... You can disagree till you are blue in the face...

I must've missed the part in my post where I offended you somehow. I can assure you this was not my intent. If you can point out what touched a nerve, I'll apologize for ruffling your feathers.

My post was not meant to convert you, who already has a play style they enjoy, but rather to offer an alternative opinion to a new reader that can then decide for themselves. Differing opinions help people make decisions.
Wouldn't you agree?

smedge · Jun 21, 2005, 06:52 PM // 18:52

I agree completely, and I was not offended. It's just getting old due to the fact that a few people here think that a professions ONLY job should consist of using X best skills in his primary profession, and they will argue that till hell freezes over.

There are plenty of wicked builds out there that go against this way of thinking. Don't ignore the human component as it can be your most powerful asset in this game. I love playing off of others assumtions ;-) I find that to be more powerful than any skill math that can be scribbled down.

burianek · Jun 21, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

I'd like to try to understand your point of view, I think I'm missing something.

My 'skill math' argument tells me that draining 2/3s of your energy pool as a ranger to put 20 secs worth of phantasm degen on a single target is inferior to a primary mesmer putting 30 seconds worth on 2 targets for less than 1/2 of their energy. I think bringing that skill is needlessly draining your energy as a ranger that could be much more efficiently used.

(and this argument extends to other 2ndry skills that don't serve to complement your core, but rather round you out, or allow you to play '2 characters in one')

How does human element or surprise factor overcome this?
Please post an example build that refutes this where you play off of others' assumptions so I can see what you're trying to say.

smedge · Jun 21, 2005, 08:18 PM // 20:18

How can I post a build that refutes your math when I am saying it's your math that doesnt always translate directly to the battlefield. The "human factor" is what is responsible for this not converting. Sure I can use my energy more efficiently to play a vanilla ranger build such that everyone knows my purpose, or I can trade some efficiency to mix up my build such that the "bad" guys aren't sure what my purpose is till they are dead. If mesmer dies (and they do) the ranger doesnt get targeted (cause hes the ranger) and the degenning and interrupting continue unabated. No it's not as efficient on energy, but like I said I have 4 skill slots left. Think some of those might have to do with overcoming the energy balance? You guessed right.

I never said this was the most energy efficient ranger build in the world. I said it kills well and it does. I said it takes people by surprise and it does. I said my team members are glad to have me on their team, and they are.

This is not a dual purpose character. It's a direct damage ranger build that uses interrupts to make the degen stick. We have beat this horse to death, it's been great, but it's time to move on to another topic. You and I differ in the way we weight "the human factor" vs. absolute build efficiency, nuff said.

Added: we are such trolls, lol!

burianek · Jun 21, 2005, 08:37 PM // 20:37

I enjoy the discussion, it only makes you better / more open minded about builds and things. (whether or not either of us admit it here)

hehe.

Epinephrine · Jun 21, 2005, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by burianek

I enjoy the discussion, it only makes you better / more open minded about builds and things. (whether or not either of us admit it here)

hehe.

Well, I agree that it pays to emphasize the strengths of a character, and to use complementary skills from 2 classes - thus the condtion R/Me and the energy denial R/Me are good ways to go for a start. I also agree that there are good reasons to hide your "true" class if possible, and that mesmers in particular are a good one as a secondary - after all, most mesmer skills are just as effective at 12 as at 16 - I mean, a backfire at either of those will prevent casting in most cases, a blackout at either level gives you time to pound and a power leak will stop the spell at any amount of domination - whether you drain 22 or 26 energy is a bit, umm, academic.

In that way, the R/Me is a nice blend - you get fewer attacks on you, better armour when the attacks do come and some good synergies between the classes (for example, arcane conundrum and distracting shot).

Arcane Senses Failed · Jun 21, 2005, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnansnow

Winter, Great Conflaguration, and the Mantras probably work great together.

keep in mind you can only have 1 mantra at a time

Neo-LD · Jun 22, 2005, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcane Senses Failed

keep in mind you can only have 1 mantra at a time

Greater Conflag = physical damage -> fire damage
Winter = elemental damage -> cold damage

Keep in mind that fire damage is elemental, so with both spirits out physical damage follows this path:

Physical -> Fire -> Cold

Therefore ALL damage is cold, and you only need to bring/use mantra of frost.

Zeru · Jun 22, 2005, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Mmm, you do understand what degen is exactly yes? Armor ignoring dps that maxes out at 20. So why not design a build using 4 skills only that will do more than 20 dps even involving general 60+10 AL.

The fact is Rangers depend on their primary attribute far more than any other class except maybe elementalists. It is definitely in your benefit to use skills that are affected by expertise or you're going to have one ineffective Ranger. I'm not saying degen is the worst thing in the world; extra dps is always nice, but is the cost really worth it, especially as a class that depends so much on reduced energy costs to sustain their levels over time?

I don't buy into the surprise element for suboptimal builds. It simply does not last and is rarely worth the sacrifice unless you are ok with designing builds vs bad teams. Good teams will react and will improvise very quickly. Unless your surprise setup has the potential to completely decimate their healing extremely fast or knock out one or two characters very quickly if they aren't expecting it it probably is not going to be worth the sacrifices that not running an optimal build loses.

I generally play a monk of one kind or another in organized tombs and besides interruption/energy denial, the only stuff that really is hard to deal with is buffed warriors/rangers who aren't locked down with things like spirit shackles, ward of melee, blind etc, or spike damage. Rangers can deal so much more sustainable damage than 20 dps and still have strong interruption/denial without losing steam thanks to expertise. Honestly degen is just an annoyance factor, kind of like backfire (though backfire can be used more tactically in pre-spike setups).

If you can show that a degen build that will outperform a build based around standard dps for Ranger via skill spam I'm all ears; I just don't think it will work out and be sustainable enough that you have spare mana for anything else. Sacrificing potential/flexibility for surprise just isn't worth it for designing stuff to fight good teams.

smedge · Jun 22, 2005, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Like I said try it for yourself. What do you have to lose.

Put points in expertise (i only have 6 here), illusion (11), marks (9 just to meet bow req) and nature (11). Thats with equipment/runes.

Use poison arrow, conjure phantasm, distracting shot, savage shot, dryders defense and whirling defense. Be imaginitive with the last two spots, for arena i use ungruent and rez signet, use something else if in the tombs (debil shot, kindle arrow are good ones).

use a pvp poisoners recurve (or composite cant remember) bow of fortitude, +15% while hp > 1/2

I have a few variations on this build, each handling the energy situation differently. This one works well though.