Curse

stumpy · Jun 23, 2005, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Guildwars and pvp is still in its birth ... this build among others fotm's will come and go as we counter the counters and do loops around ourselves.

Of course I love rituals ... how do you think I whooped my mirror way back when. But a character is only as good as the man at the computer. I see many people claiming they are trappers in the temple of ages ... but do they have spike trap? no ...

This is the 2 most recent aspect of rangers that have driven them up the popularity poll. Mesmers are on the rise now.

Aug · Jun 23, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Are you 100% certain that the fire damage gets converted to cold damage? If not, Greater Conflagration isn't doing you any good.

Also, it's completely unnecessary to have 6 Ra/Mes. Rangers are generally one of the last targets, so they don't need to be Me's at all. A Ra/E or Ra/N works quite well.

I've done Team Arenas with a Ra/E, W/Me, E/Me, and myself as a Mo/Me, and we used Winter/Mantra of Frost to combat the spike builds. The Wa/Me took some domination skills to disable opposing monks. And the Ra/E took Ward Against Melees and Meteor I think.

Without fail, every fight had everyone going after myself (Mo/Me) and occasionally the E/Me. Not once did someone go after the W or R until both myself and the E were down.

Considering this, I think it's valuable to have your Rangers and Warriors NOT Mesmers, to pick up other useful skills. It's definitely wise to have all your 'squishies' Mesmer secondaries with Mantra of Frost, however.

Neo-LD · Jun 23, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

Are you 100% certain that the fire damage gets converted to cold damage? If not, Greater Conflagration isn't doing you any good.

Yes indeed, physical damage does get converted to fire and then to cold (since fire is elemental)

Even though rangers are not the primary target, if they comprise 75% of the team it is likelythat they will take some damage. Might as prevent it and gain energy from it with mantra.

Aug · Jun 23, 2005, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Of course, if 75% of the team is Rangers, some of them will take some damage. But why would you want that many Rangers? They have SOME use, but they're not the best class in the game.

Why hamstring yourself with only Rangers, when you could incorporate so much more, at little to no extra risk? You already know that if you have 2 Es and 2 Mos, that the 2-4 Rangers will hardly get scratched (until the Mos and Es are dead), so why have them waste attribute points and a skill slot on something they'll never need?

Winter + Conflagration + Mantra of Frost is great. I've seen it in action (well, our Ranger didn't have Conflagration, but we were using Winter + MoF). But it worked even better when we started having our W and R pick up skills that were useful, instead of having Inspiration attribute points and a wasted skill slot (Mantra of Frost) because they were never attacked until it was too late to matter.

Tellani Artini · Jun 23, 2005, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

Of course, if 75% of the team is Rangers, some of them will take some damage. But why would you want that many Rangers? They have SOME use, but they're not the best class in the game.

What is the best class in the game, and how is any other class more useful in this build than a ranger? The only other offensive classes that can really be useful here, mainly due to quickening zephyr, are drain mesmer and adrenaline warrior, imo. Warriors can get by just fine with no energy at all, and will benefit from the mass unhexing. Mesmers can steal energy freely. Elementalists will run out of energy long before they do anything useful (see fertile season), and their attunement/ether enchantments are ineffective under renewal.

Rangers and warriors (with adrenaline/signet builds) are the only classes that aren't strapped for energy under quickening zephyr, and aren't gimped by nature's renewal. Why would you use anything else?

Aug · Jun 23, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quickening Zephyr and Nature's Renewal do not completely gimp Elementalists, Necromancers, or Mesmers. They're inconvenient, sure. But they're far from useless.

And since you only have one Ranger with Zephyr anyway, there won't be all that many on the field. Depending on the victory conditions, the opposition could just avoid fighting you when they're affected by them (stalemate), or they could destroy them (even with Fertile Season down, a spirit isn't that tough to take out under concentrated fire).

And you already pointed out that Warriors would be useful.

For this specific build, I suppose you might not want to use Mes, Ns, or Es. But I think you could ditch Quickening Zephyr and incorporate some Mes, Ns, and Es and be much more successful. And still leave Nature's Renewal in there (Mes and Ns have a more than just hexes).

Neo-LD · Jun 23, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

But why would you want that many Rangers?

You want them because they have the most elemental resistant armor. Remember that the spirit combo turns all damage into cold damage.

But its more a matter of need. You NEED that many rangers to pull of the spirit spamming startegy. As I said before, 6 rangers have 48 total ranger skill slots and he has already has used up 35 with spirits, mantras, and other necesary skills.

Rangers may not be able to spike as well as elementalsits, but they can still provide steady ranged damage, to be sure. Keep in mind at least a few of those rangers have points in Beastmastery which opens the door for tigers fury.

Aug · Jun 23, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

You want them because they have the most elemental resistant armor. Remember that the spirit combo turns all damage into cold damage.

Elementalists can achieve decent resists vs Cold damage.

Quote:

But its more a matter of need. You NEED that many rangers to pull of the spirit spamming startegy. As I said before, 6 rangers have 48 total ranger skill slots and he has already has used up 35 with spirits, mantras, and other necesary skills.

Why do you NEED to spirit spam? Spamming spirits doesn't win matches. You actually have to kill someone to win. 6 rangers dropping spirits and 2 monks with healing aren't going to be very good at killing things. They certainly will be good at surviving, however.

The important components of this combo that I see are Winter + Greater Conflagration + Nature's Renewal. Sure the other spirits complement the 6 Ranger team, but I don't think they do it in such a way as to make 3-4 of those Rangers more valuable than any other profession. I don't think combining all those Spirits makes 3-4 of those Rangers more valuable than adding 2 Elementalist/Mesmers, a Mesmer/X, and a Necromancer/Mesmer to your team.

There is a trade-off that you need to evaluate. That is damage vs survivability. I think this particular concept has traded away a lot of damage for an excess amount of survivability.

Quote:

Rangers may not be able to spike as well as elementalsits, but they can still provide steady ranged damage, to be sure. Keep in mind at least a few of those rangers have points in Beastmastery which opens the door for tigers fury.

My point is that replacing a few Rangers with something else would be of more value than just doing steady ranged damage.

There's a saying that goes: "the best defense is a good offense". I've never heard the reverse: "the best offensive is a good defense".

I think the build needs more offense, and less defense. I don't think you can accomplish that with 75% Ranger/Mesmers.

hydrak · Jun 23, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

You want them because they have the most elemental resistant armor. Remember that the spirit combo turns all damage into cold damage.

Some elementalist spells ignore armor

The Red Knight · Jun 23, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Naz you silly NUKKA melee is wanted in tombs -.- good wars can pwn monks.

<- duck =/

But yeah they need to bring unnatural signet back to rape nature ritual builds..

Amnisac · Jun 23, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Great. Now they're going to nerf spirits. Thanks a LOT guys.

Dreamsmith · Jun 23, 2005, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

There's a saying that goes: "the best defense is a good offense". I've never heard the reverse: "the best offensive is a good defense".

Ha! Actually, that's the original quote. It comes from football, where many times touchdowns are made by the defensive team, after an interception or other means of making the opposing team commit an error, giving control of the ball to the defenders. Some defensive lines have gotten reputations in the past for being particularly good at intimidating or forcing the opposing team to make such an error, thus scoring many touchdowns themselves.

Not that that has anything to do with GW, but the original quote is actually, "the best offense is a good defense". The reverse is really a (hopefully intentional) misquote.

Tellani Artini · Jun 24, 2005, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Yeah, good luck winning with the build posted here. There is such a thing as too many spirits and not enough offense, and you'll notice it when your monks are dead and the other team's are going strong, even with mantra of frost.

Nessaja · Jun 24, 2005, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Red Knight

Naz you silly NUKKA melee is wanted in tombs -.- good wars can pwn monks.

<- duck =/

But yeah they need to bring unnatural signet back to rape nature ritual builds..

oh no it's duck!

(why me... why me!!)

Ugh.. there are exceptions. It just doesnt fit the build

ComMan · Jun 24, 2005, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Wow man, looks like I spoke too soon! I tried to get into Tombs today and everyone wanted me for thrown-together unplanned spirit groups! I think that at this rate I'm worse off than I was when nobody wanted me.

I also note that everyone now tells me what to carry, whereas before it was "Take Frozen Soil, rest is up to you." Now it's "Take all 4 traps, Choking Gas, Winnowing, and Predatory Season"

"what...that setup doesn't make any sense though."

"just trust me."

Remind me not to join those groups anymore.

Edit: "The best defense is a good offense" was George S. Patton, the guy who was so far ahead of everyone else in WW2 that had to stop and wait for the supply lines to catch up with him.

Racthoh · Jun 24, 2005, 05:09 AM // 05:09

I just want to point out that in the original post, you put Mantra of Frost as reducing lightning damage and not cold damage.

Also, it is my understanding that the focus of this build is to deal steady damage through a barrage of arrows. However, this could be easily countered by simply setting a few warrior tactics. Shield's Up, Shield Stance, Gladiator's Defense, etc... Granted, you do have +200 life from the ritual, but in time the warriors could waste away the monk's energy and beat you down without taking much damage.

Regardless I hope to see it in action some time at the HoH.

No exit · Jun 24, 2005, 10:45 AM // 10:45

What about the monks defense?
How will you kill something when the enemy benefits from the same rituals but will have more heal/damage power?
<edit: mantra of frost is stance and cannot be removed>

Neo-LD · Jun 24, 2005, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

Why do you NEED to spirit spam? Spamming spirits doesn't win matches. You actually have to kill someone to win. 6 rangers dropping spirits and 2 monks with healing aren't going to be very good at killing things. They certainly will be good at surviving, however.

You need to spirit spam because thats the point of the strategy. You put up the important ones (like you said, winter, greater conflag, nature renewal) and also put up even more because otherwise the important ones are likely to die. The "unimportant spirits usually have some useful purpose anyways.

Favorable winds will increase the dmage of each bow attack (useful for a team of 6 rangers)
Fertile Season makes life difficult for air nuke builds, and also keeps your spirits alive.
Predatory Season reduces healing by 20%. Considering that the entire team takes ~45% less damage from all damage (courtesy of mantra) and has 100 armor after that, healing is not so important for your team anyways.
Some of the less important spirits, like Zephyr and Muddy, I agree should go.

As for Offense, 6 rangers focus firing with penetrating shot and punishing shot are nothing to laugh at. You have been spoiled by the insta kills you get with the air nuke. Keep in mind that all damage is cold, healing is reduced, range attacks are buffed, and enchantments are very hard to use courtesy of the spirits, all of which overwhelmingly benifit the ranger team.

Im just saying that the 6 rangers can do the job just fine. They dont need replacement.

@ No exit

Mantra is a stance, not an enchantment.

Nessaja · Jun 24, 2005, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I just want to point out that in the original post, you put Mantra of Frost as reducing lightning damage and not cold damage.

If you had read the entire post you would know that mantra of frost is needed because all physical damage and elemental damage is cold damage instead because of the spirits.

No Exit- Mantras are stances, not enchancements.

Sincee the rangers damage is cold damage, it will hurt more against most enemies, in addition favorable winds is up, and for instance quick shot is a great way to stack damage.

Mind you, healing is 20% less effective, and you play against a team of interrupters, and enchancements take longer to cast/are removed.

RandomEngy · Jun 24, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

I don't understand why people are insisting it should be all rangers... Yes they are all resistant to elemantal damage, but how often do you see anything other than monks and mesmers being targeted first? If the warriors are taking a beating, the monks should be free to Energy Tap and heal them at will. The truth is, warriors are best at dishing out damage under Quickening Zepher. They get all kinds of mana-less high damage attacks. Have a ranger bring Crippling Shot and with Nature's Renewal there's no stopping the warriors from piling on the damage.