Curse

Yukito Kunisaki · Jun 17, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49

This question is like asking "is there a best etc.?"

There is none!

There will always be a mesmer out there who's better than another mesmer at something else. Hell, I made a DoT end game mesmer designed to mess with EVERYBODY ^_^

Though for answering the purpose of these questions, I'd say there are two very focused highly dangerous types of mesmer...

Anti-Caster

Anti-Physical [I don't like to say melee cause rangers can be just as big a threat]

Anti-caster: Backfire, Diversion, energy drains, Counterspell Interrupts. Quite good against other casters but dump a high damage warrior on them and well...

Anti-Physical: Empathy, Phantom Pain, Imagined/Ethereal Burden, Spirit Shackle+Mind Wrack, Spirit of Failure. Near Perfect against anyone who does non-elemental damage but against a spike elementalist, you're dead.

I'd like a blend of both for my Mes/Nec. He's not as potent as an anti-caster against monks, but at least he has something that can hamper BOTH classes quite effectively. [I've posted his build here as a DoT Late Game Mesmer]

Though not as potent, he's VERY hard to counter since he's diversified.

grimmolly · Jun 17, 2005, 04:54 PM // 16:54

It was quite asinine to tell us that our mesmers are bad if we don't know the invented terminology your guild uses. I expect based upon the wording that off monk is the first one you're targeting as a mesmer. Odd monk would be the one the team isn't attacking and the one you didn't start with. Even monk would be the same as the on-target monk, except your invented terminology was clearly designed to confuse us instead of being clear and precise.

Reiden Argrock · Jun 17, 2005, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Time to make a mesmer me thinks

Kershent · Jun 17, 2005, 05:04 PM // 17:04

I won't deny it. Taking a bad mesmer is like taking 7 people with you. They have to do their job very well, or they're just not worth taking along.

So, to the actual topic of this thread, I find I'm at my best when I'm interrupting. Arcane conundrum, shame, guilt, power leak/spike, Diversion (never leave home without it!), and then some odds and ends skills.

I imagine energy dep is a pretty neat thing to do, but I'm not specced for inspiration.

Bazooka · Jun 17, 2005, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Whoa somebody give grimmolly a hug.

Off monk. Not the monk that is being targeted

Odd monk. Has an odd number next to his name

Even monk. Has an even number next to his name

Knowing when to hit which monk is the Art in Mesmer.

Kaylee Ann · Jun 17, 2005, 05:37 PM // 17:37

I thought the concept of 100% shutdown was very easy to understand, but I guess not. So, here we go:

1. Arcane conundrum + the power series: Hex breaker is going to own arcane, the next hex you cast, and maybe even a third depending on how quickly the monk and mesmer is. Even if you get the 3rd hex on it, it will be removed almost instantly. So now you are trying to power spike spells that have a 1 second or less cast time, especially on a prot monk whose spell cast times are even less. In the end, monk is by far not 100% shut down.

2. Blackout: It definately has its uses. But, blacking out a single monk in a group for 6 seconds isn't going to do anything. Blacking out every monk in the group at the same time and then spiking targets works. But, this once again isn't 100% shutdown.

3. Diversion is another good spell, but you can't rely on it to do anything special. You cast diversion on me, if hex breaker doesn't catch it, then I am either going to have it removed, wait the time out if possible (depending on the damage the group is taking), or I am just going to cast a spell that has a huge recast time anyways, like aegis or spell breaker. I can easily just spell breaker myself, I am now not even close to shutdown, your group's casters can't touch me, and you failed as a mesmer to shut your target down. Good job.

4. Chaos storm is a crappy spell. It doesn't do crap for damage, and it takes a whole whopping one second to walk out of.

5. Why would you backfire and use diversion on the same target at the same time? I am not even going to bother here.

6. Energy denial: Good route, but pointless if that is all you are doing. Monks have signets, low energy cast spells, and a variety of ways to get energy back. This is the closest thing I have seen in this post to complete shutdown.

7. Backfire: Everyone on the plannet knows what the icon of this hex looks like. It is going to be removed instantly, and has a horrid recast timer. If you are going to use it, it will be much better spent on another target.

All this post is is the same 15 gimmicky spells over and over. There are 60 other mesmer spells that do absolutely wonderful things if you learn how to use them.

stumpy · Jun 17, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

*hugs grimmoly*

I play a ranger/mes ... interrupts and energy drain is my job. I'm not a high damage dealer (nukers job), Im not a meat sheild (warriors job) ... Im an interrupter ... thats my job!

I can say timing is everything and if a mesmer has made it to the tombs (not a hard task) and still cant hit there timing ... your gonna get my great canadian boot asap. If partied in a few pickups with decent mesmers and they really CAN be effective. CAN is a lucrative word here because you have greater odds against you as joining a party you give a weak squishy link unless you really can do your job. Its not a mesmers job to shut down everybody. Quite frankly anyone whose asking that is asking to much. As you only have 8 skills and effectively can knock out 1 opponent and maybe throw a stick in the wheel of another. As a ranger I am not a squishy target ... in fact if a warrior comes charging after me ... all the better ...

I can knock 40 energy off someone before they know what hit them (usually takes) if thats where I'm asked to go ... other wise its interrupts and you can really mess with any caster ... just gotta get your timing on ... and a note to any new up and coming mesmers ... if you missed a spell dont late cast just jump on the next spell ... (this is where n00b and weak links come from) too many will try for that late cast and fall into a onslaught on missed interrupts, thus making them useless. Smart mesmers will know about covering there skills, for the newer mesmers ... get to know your skills (cost **casting time** and recharge) ... most importantly is casting time though. This is to be as effective as possible while mainting your energy.

On another note ... pickups successfully and royally waste time ... get your guild in a coordinated effort or at least get a few guys you have played with before ... I would like to see a full mesmer team take the hoh just to prove that mesmers dont suck (hey if they can successfully shut down monks ... why is this team build not in there already? lol)

Kaylee Ann · Jun 17, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Wow, a voice of reason. I am not a big fan of rangers but atleast you know what you are talking about and have done the research on your character. And, I have been on mesmer based teams that took and held the alter, atleast before the current patch.

grimmolly · Jun 17, 2005, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Calling odd or even like this isn't really helpful. It's easier to call by numbers. We always have the team call their target and speak the number in teamspeak and usually the caller lists the numbers of the likely mesmer targets, then the mesmer tells us what number he's on first, the off monk or caster.

Jun 17, 2005, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Kaylee: A decent shutdown mesmer doesn't have to 100% shutdown anyone. Crippling 2 monks to the point where they are using Signet of Devotion and Blessed Signet to heal and get energy back means they are dead.

Chaos Storm is actually one of the best Energy denials in the game. It takes atleast 2 seconds to walk out of in mid casting if you cancel. 1 sec just for the initial hit and another sec to get out of the range of CS. The range is actually a bit larger than the purple swirling animation shows.

You'd backfire+diversion the same target in the case of knocking out a spell you know he can't throw away: something like Remove hex on the monk that has no choice but to cast it when he can't wait out a backfire. But in general combining the two is a waste.

Kaylee Ann · Jun 17, 2005, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Kaylee: A decent shutdown mesmer doesn't have to 100% shutdown anyone. Crippling 2 monks to the point where they are using Signet of Devotion and Blessed Signet to heal and get energy back means they are dead.

Uhm, yes they do. One, it isn't very hard to do. And two, suppose you were running an air gank group, and you put your mesmer on the prot monk. What good is the mesmer doing if the prot monk still occaisionally gets prot spirit off on called targets? Or even better, what if you do your idea of 'crippling' someone. You cripple your target by ridding it of its mana (hinted by your use of signets). It takes a whole 2 or 3 seconds to get 5 mana, at which time the monk energy drains someone. Now the monk is completely back into play and doing its job again whereas you failed as a mesmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Chaos Storm is actually one of the best Energy denials in the game. It takes atleast 2 seconds to walk out of in mid casting if you cancel. 1 sec just for the initial hit and another sec to get out of the range of CS. The range is actually a bit larger than the purple swirling animation shows.

Maybe of denying yourself of energy. You get 11 off me (6 + the 5 energy it costs to use 75% of the monk spells, and I still get my spell off) whereas you spend 15 and have to deal with a 30 second recast timer. Please, every mesmer equip this one. Just one less mesmer spell I have to worry about.

Asplode · Jun 17, 2005, 11:01 PM // 23:01

For that anti-phys you're missing the most important spell of all, mindwrack.

Spirit Shackles + Mindwrack on a 16dom mesmer = win. Of course, that leaves you open to 6 more spells.

My mesmer runs w/ no backfire, that's just 10 seconds of inactivity that you're paying 15 energy for, sure it's good dmg, but that's one healspell, and they usually get the hex removed. It's also slow to cast, and has a long recast. Only type backfire is good on are spammer Eles, i.e. flare, ice spear, and stone daggers. Another note is that backfire won't do jack against a monk running w/ Signet of Devotion. You'd need an elite spell for that.

As for the best shutdown mesmer, it depends on your group, and the type of game. In a 4v4, I suggest illusion, arcane conundrum, and migraine combined with draining interrupts and Shame/Guilt make casters cry.

In 8v8, I suggest against long hexes since all good groups run with hexremovals. My weapon of choice is domination/inspiration for impact and endurance, stick with short quick recast shutdowns like Diversion. Great spells to keep around for denial and interrupt are guilt and shame, follow those up with energy drain to bottom out their energy, and round it out with some regain spells like inspired hex, your monks will thank you for it.

If you WANT to get long hexes, I suggest you follow them up immediately with long duration "bs" hexes as I like to call them, to absorb their hexremoval spells. I personally suggest Mind Wrack as a good BS hex, since it's 30 seconds and 5 energy with a 5s recast, and it's good supplemental damage in case they trigger it. Good long duration hexes are migraine and conundrum since it pretty much flattens a monk's casting ability, especially if you pack interrupts. BE wary, however, if you're running a long hex heavy build, because certain spells like purge signet and convert hexes(Otherallyonly) will take them all out in one fell swoop.

Jun 17, 2005, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee Ann

Uhm, yes they do. One, it isn't very hard to do. And two, suppose you were running an air gank group, and you put your mesmer on the prot monk. What good is the mesmer doing if the prot monk still occaisionally gets prot spirit off on called targets? Or even better, what if you do your idea of 'crippling' someone. You cripple your target by ridding it of its mana (hinted by your use of signets). It takes a whole 2 or 3 seconds to get 5 mana, at which time the monk energy drains someone. Now the monk is completely back into play and doing its job again whereas you failed as a mesmer.

Let's assume that this is a monk playing with Energy Drain-who cares? So he gets back 5 mana in just under 4 seconds. Let's also play around with all the hypothetical bs while were at it.

He is playing with ED, so that means no SoR, SoD or WoH. Why am I also caring about a monk that can get off PS on one target. Occasionally getting off anything doesn't matter vs sustained damage. The monk cant keep up.Even with a high inspiration a monk Energy draining someone for 18 mana is still not back in the picture. Especially if you're arguing for the use of Protective Spirit to keep anyone alive.

Secondly, Air gank groups are worthless. There are very few guilds that can actually run a decent one.

Quote:

Maybe of denying yourself of energy. You get 11 off me (6 + the 5 energy it costs to use 75% of the monk spells, and I still get my spell off) whereas you spend 15 and have to deal with a 30 second recast timer. Please, every mesmer equip this one. Just one less mesmer spell I have to worry about.

75% of the monks spell don't cost 5 energy, especially with Divine boon builds running around and the fact that only 12 of them cost 5 energy. But let's also look at the lowest-payoff example of CS to put some sense into your bs arguments:

It costs me 15 energy to get off CS and let's say I hit 1 target for minimal gain. At 6 energy per sec:

I f you get caught in the initial casting of an OoH at 5 energy and 1.75 secs casting time: That leaves you with .25 seconds to get out of the CS and not lose 12 energy from it +5 from the OoH. And being that you wont that's 17 energy lost. Maybe a Rof at 1 sec casting time is doable, but not an OoH.

But I'll let you continue to live in your fantasy world. I know the in's and out's of the mesmer class far,far, far better than you do. Especially since you dont even know how energy regen or casting times work which is basic if you want to play well with this class.

edit: MindWrack and Migraine are terrible.

Jimbodan · Jun 17, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

well kaylee ann, since you think you're god's gift to mesmers why not put your money where your mouth is and post your "uber build"?

It's real easy to pop off and brag when you aren't putting yourself on the line.

Darc.Syde · Jun 17, 2005, 11:51 PM // 23:51

he'll probobly post a copy cat domination build he saw a top guild use.

if you're really a good experienced mesmer player, you will know how to use the skills in all 3 attribute lines to shutdown casters and sometimes fighters.

most ppl only know how ot make only domination mesmers, all noobs. look at the response to Chaos storm, most of us experienced mesmer players know it counters stuff like wards, healing ball anyone?

Kaylee Ann · Jun 18, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

1. I never said air gank groups are good, I just used that as an example. Try coming up with your own opinions before twisting mine.

2. On an average day my prot monk carries 5 5 mana cost spells, 2 15, and one that costs nothing. None of them take over 1 second to cast. So, more then likely you are going to only drain 11 mana from me with your cute little chaos storm. And last time I checked, there are 19 monk spells (not including smiting and signets) that use 5 mana. You are such a good mesmer you can't even read or count; I am utterly impressed. The first word in your guild name is very suitable for you.

3. What is your idea of a "top guild?" I assume it is a guild that consistently stays on the first page of the ladder listing (top20) especially since 2 guilds control 1/3 of it at any given time.....

4. I hope after reading this post every mesmer in the game uses chaos storm from now on. I can just feel all my mana being sucked right out of me from the best mesmer denial spell in the game!!!!!!!

Jun 18, 2005, 01:32 AM // 01:32

That 12 should be a 22. Which as the point still stands is far away from 75%.

Second off as it's plainly obvious you dont know and continue to make a fool of yourself: all spells have a .75 aftercast. So even rof has a total 1 sec casting time, hence how all your faulty math just doesn't make sense to anyone that knows this basic stuff.

Also just in case you didn't know-Signets dont cost energy.

I Sell Sigils P S T · Jun 18, 2005, 05:59 AM // 05:59

mesmers i really hate...Me/N, Running panic+ether lord+ malaise = -7 energy degen.. even spamming hex breaker, it can get pretty annoying.. specially if you throw a diversion in the mix.. But i dont know alot about mesmers =P.

Mister Glue · Jun 18, 2005, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoddy

I disagree. The heals I use most often are fairly short casts, so I would think they would be risky to try to interrupt. If you do, you've cost me 5-10 energy and a second and a half. Of course, if you do hit with a power block, it will be pretty devistating to have no healing prayers spells for a long while.

I probably should've watched what I was saying a bit more. When I said interupts, I meant spells like Backfire and Blackout that keep you from casting at all. So really I should've said shutdown.

But really if I'm being constantly interupted, it's just about as bad, but it's hard for a mesmer to keep casting on me that long.

Quote:

Energy draining is the best route vs. monk I think. Most times I don't even notice I'm being drained until all my juice is gone, and even if I did notice there's nothing I can do about it unless I carry spell breaker for my elite to give me a brief reprieve.

Elementalists have the high costs and the generally longer cast times, so they'd be the prime interrupt targets I'd think.

I don't know about most monks, but I can run fairly well when I'm at minimal energy. All four of the direct healing spells I use cost 5 energy each, so if I hit zero, it's only 1-2 seconds before I can cast another spell. I also carry two sets of weapons - one that gives me +10 energy and another that gives me +30. I keep my +10 energy weapon equipped at first, so if I run out and really need more energy, I can just switch over to the +30 and I'll be fine. I doubt most monks would do this though because it can be hard to do correctly.

Perth68 · Jun 20, 2005, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Ive been trying some disabling skills with mild success, I like the idea just not enough skills that really work = /
so far Ive been using
blackout
ignorance
arcane thievery
sig of humility

gonna try power block when I get it?
any ideas?/comments?