Curse

The Justice · Jun 21, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Warriors do NOT suck in PvP. Some warrior+secondary profession may be bad at it, but it's only a matter of skill and playing style. I have tried many professions with primary warrior and some of them have been extremly good. For example, Paladin,(W/Mo) is good because it can deal much dmg with default skills. Altough, any combination sucks, if one don't have skill with it.
I like warriors. Warriors can deal much damage easily, but may not be effective against groups and hex-using professions. But it doesen't mean the other professions do! Mesmer can easily burn down Elementalist's energy away and so on, but nobody doesen't seem to notice it.
Once I tried W/Mo with skills like this: 1 sever artery, 2 gash, 3 power attack, 4 galrath slash, 5 protectin attack, 6 final thrust, 7 healing hands, 8 mending. Check Skill Database for more about these.
It's EXTREMELY effective! Using 8 at the start and targetting lony and weak enemy such E/R I used these skills: I rushed with 3 and then 1 to make enemy Bleed and 2 inflicting Deep Wound. Then rival competior tried to attack, quickly 7 and follow-up combo of 3 and 4. When weakening enemy tried to runescape I striked with 5 and when very low Health 6. It was easy and fast and not-so-much Energy-costing. Then I was able to help team-mates.
Warriors may be great sometimes, but it's just my opinion. All professions and combinitions are sure good but warrior-based heros fits best to my style to rush and finish it quickly.

Arcane Senses Failed · Jun 21, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

most warriors are bad because

A. they're inexperienced due to the fact that warrior is an exetremly common skill.
B. like someone mentioned, they run away from healers
C. i know many warirors that think they're invicible... just cuz they're warriors..
D. (related to A) they are common so people bring counters for them. They are becoming less common tho...

Of course, a smart warrior is good... so... yes.. maybe 90% of warriors suck... but if ur smart... ur in the 10% that doesn't

Lestat Requiem · Jun 22, 2005, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Judge insight prolly suck on a hammer too much energy drain ==> 10 energy = 2 Irresistible blow +30 damage each , much more than what the judge insight could make, at leaste i tryed sword an other time (costed me 15 k of plategaunt and 10 k of rune -_-)

Result : Sword = suck in pvp no way to kill a monk . With hammer i can kill a monk alone if hes healing/prot sbdy else when I start my combo : (Berzerker stance to load (+150% dps for 9 sec) to use on an other target to distract the monk, then switch to the monk ==>
Iresistible blow (or Mighty) (60-100 damage) ==>
Devastating (40-70 damage)==>
Crushing (100 damage of deepwound + about 60-90 damage) ==>
Heavy blow (60-100 damage) (The previous effect of deep wound make that hit looks to eats about 1/4 of the foes Hp bar ^^ funny xD
Aftershock if ur elem earth secondary will add about 100-130 damage but a paralysis of 1.5 sec after using it. (Hammer swing c/d= 1.8 sec)
All of that done with Ebon mursaat hammer +14% over 50% hp

Can be greatly used to rip off just rezzed monks too ^^ !
Use sprint of course

And if you wanna load ur adrenaline REALLY REALLY FAST , use tactic skill "To the limit with 11 tactics, it will makes 5 adre loads free for 5 energy every 20 sec.

Actually im experiencing multiple builds,
W/R with frozen soil to support entire team by preventing enemy rez , but to be used wiselly + Trolls Drugs ^^ to regen some life when monk is buzy = Build with low energy comsuption so can use Iresistible blow very often ^^
W/el Classical combo with aftershock , but very high energy comsuption so need to use Miighty blow , but still with energy lack for passing a 3rd combo in battle.Possible use of Grasping Earth to make a big bad pbaoe 50% slow , But NEED to use elemetal damage hammer and have an elementalist based team.
W/N Very usefull to get the rid over blind , bleed , cripple and all others warrior pains with the contagious touch. Build can be used with Parasite bond to regen some health or with Malaise (= Big pain to enemy monks, make them oom in about 30 sec of full fighting) or even with rigor mortis (=foe can't evade of block for about 15 sec with 10 in curses) agains protective teams.
W/M is a sort of mix of the W/n and W/el possibilitys, use mend aliment to get out of conditions , and use holy strike on knocked foes (=5energy 40+30 damage NO paralisis after !)
I havnt tryed a W/me build cuz lack of skill points atm ^^

But keep in mind that W/el and W/R builds will always require a monk to mend you in battle.

Atm im sticked on the W/R ways with Healing Spring (next skill ill get in about 5k xp) and Frozen soil

PS: Got more than 750k xp atm >.< so skills costs me about 1plat to learn :-(

PS2 : BIG advantage to have a hammer warriors = can knock down enemy hero capturing in the last seconds of the HOH

kuramaroze · Jun 22, 2005, 03:59 AM // 03:59

I use my warrior as a "stealth debuffer/hexer" in the HoH since I am generally ignored. I use axes and I bring axe rake + dismember to help out against monks, but I usually spend my time putting blood ritual (is that the name. the +3 mana regen to teammates) on the eles and monks of our team, rending the enemies, and filling their rangers and warriors with hexes. I have found that with the right skills, an axe war can kill a monk alone fairly quickly, but I feel more useful this way. Yes, we are underpowered unless we take out a hammer to smack down their casters...

Phades · Jun 22, 2005, 04:24 AM // 04:24

I’ve been rather frustrated with the warrior class in general as of late. The game design revolving around pve creates a situation where every character has tools (in varied degrees) to combat small to large groups of physical damage orientated monsters. Each class appears to have been designed to be stand alone if necessary, but the stand alone concepts do not work at all in pvp.

Part of my frustration is the realization that the large majority of the pve game revolves around deflecting melee attacks through various methods as the primary method of defense. This can be observed through the many defensive spells that give automatic evasion or block rates specifically against melee damage. While this is all well and good, it leaves a large hole in the "to do" list for what a warrior can achieve with most setups. Granted, there are skills available that help diffuse that situation, but unfortunately many of these defenses can be kept up indefinitely, while the method to defeat them via the warrior skills are either energy hungry to be chained or recycle every minute for every ~10 seconds of use. This creates a huge damage gap in the already large potential damage that warriors are supposed to achieve vs. a target. This is beyond what already exists in terms of traveling to the target, snares such as cripple, iron mist, prison of ice, and conditions such as blind and to a lesser extent weakness. I think some of this complication is a design oversight in general as things such as blind does not affect rangers, nor does snare (in terms of being able to apply skills effectively), due to the nature of bows and ranged combat. Granted, many of these skills can be countered via monk or necro means, a warrior cannot be a warrior if loaded up with the spells designed to counter all the warrior counters. Part of the problem lies in energy, the other in the maximum skill allowance. Granted this is a team game, when it comes to both pvp and pve, but in many instances the monks have other things to worry about than if a warrior is snared, blind, or otherwise rendered incapable of performing their intended role.

This has lead me, to a somewhat pre-mature conclusion, that the only viable sub for a warrior is a monk in order to help sustain their ability to perform in melee combat. This, unfortunately, causes the warrior to only be able to remove detrimental effects upon him and not counter the numerous effects that also counter him via wards or enchantments existing upon an enemy. While in a good team setup, other teammates can mitigate some of the burden of defeating defenses, but they are too easily stacked to be overly reliable in many cases. The chillblains appears to be a very valid solution for another warrior to compliment a warrior who can easily remove hexes and conditions, but it takes half that number to do both defenses and apply conditions towards the would be melee combatants. But, as a previous poster stated, the energy cost is very preventative towards productive use of said skill with a warrior.

Considering the skill lineup of a warrior, combined with the low energy count, non-existent energy regeneration bonuses, and the inherent bonuses available to the armor, I believe that warriors were designed almost exclusively for pve. The ability to focus as a pure warrior using strength and weapon skills for offense and tactics for defense, appears to be one of the best possible setups for a warrior for pve, but is virtually worthless for pvp. Given the high armor value and the inherent armor traits (+ defense vs. physical), and the way stances work, it would appear that warriors were designed to counter other warriors. This seems a little strange given the nature of the other jobs within the game and how flexible they can choose to be in performance. Granted there are a few skills out there such as fear me, hamstring, and axe rake, which do boost performance in pvp. They tend to be marginal at best, given the condition that the warrior must be in melee combat and have the ability to successfully strike the target without outside aid to perform these skills. I call them marginal, due to the fact that simply running away from a warrior can prevent the accrual of adrenalin necessary for a large portion of the warrior skills, in addition to being out of range for the melee attack to land. This is partially due to how the game animations work, requiring the warrior to stop moving on every melee attack performed. It is also compounded by the nature of how the game registers movement in general, relegating skills such as bull's strike and bull's rush to be called buggy at best, as they require that the target be moving at the beginning and end of the skill and also strike the rear of the target.

As far as inter-class balance is concerned, the warrior job feels lacking as it has no utility, less energy, less energy regen and fewer varied defense options. The warrior is not faster than other jobs, even side by side comparisons of movement buffs leaves the warriors slower and requiring elite skills for many of them. Given the lack of innate bonuses within the armor, I would almost expect built in health regeneration and health + bonuses to make up for the largely absent +energy bonuses and completely absent +energy regen. In exchange for these drawbacks, the warrior is given higher base armor, which is rendered largely useless due to the lack of ways to diffuse non-melee inbound damage. The innate penetration values of chaos, damage over time, holy, air, dark, and select earth magic damage sources ensure this state of being. This makes other sources of defense, such as protection magic or earth a much better damage sink (or tank) than the basic warrior template will provide, while at the same time possessing the tools for damage deflection and forms of healing.

Warriors aren’t all bad, but they really don’t seem to get the job done at times, especially when it comes to pvp, when compared against other jobs.

Tuna · Jun 22, 2005, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Warriors certainly have the disadvantage of having to be right next to their target and, as has been stated, the sheer number of ways to render a warrior useless. However, if you look past some of these inital shortcomings one will realize that warriors have the greatest damage potential in the game. The trick is unleashing it.

The first dilema of a warrior is that monk running around like a chicken w/o head. There are two ways to deal with this:
1. speed boost
2. snare
It should also be noted that monks can't heal while running.

Problem #2 are things like bonnettis, guardian, blind and the rest of the anti-warrior crew. There are several skills that allow a warrior to hit every time. It is also important to remove hexes such as empathy or at the very least not attack through them. Debuffing the warriors target can also be very helpfull as often they use damage killers such as but not limited to reveral of fortune, healing seed, and prot spirit.

Problem #3. Low energy + crappy equip. Some warrior builds require energy, other do not. However, if your build requires energy you are probably using skills from a secondary class. This means you have a high chance of being able to use a focus in your offhand in place of a shield. Gladiators armor also helps. A warrior can end with I believe 48 energy. Don't fret about the loss of a shield, nobody attacks you anyway.

I am lead to believe that to properly make use of warriors you will probably need to mold the entire teams build around them. Bring some buffs and some disenchants and you can send them cheesy air eles running for the hills.

Phades · Jun 24, 2005, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Warriors certainly have the disadvantage of having to be right next to their target and, as has been stated, the sheer number of ways to render a warrior useless. However, if you look past some of these inital shortcomings one will realize that warriors have the greatest damage potential in the game. The trick is unleashing it.

The first dilema of a warrior is that monk running around like a chicken w/o head. There are two ways to deal with this:
1. speed boost
2. snare
It should also be noted that monks can't heal while running.

Problem #2 are things like bonnettis, guardian, blind and the rest of the anti-warrior crew. There are several skills that allow a warrior to hit every time. It is also important to remove hexes such as empathy or at the very least not attack through them. Debuffing the warriors target can also be very helpfull as often they use damage killers such as but not limited to reveral of fortune, healing seed, and prot spirit.

Problem #3. Low energy + crappy equip. Some warrior builds require energy, other do not. However, if your build requires energy you are probably using skills from a secondary class. This means you have a high chance of being able to use a focus in your offhand in place of a shield. Gladiators armor also helps. A warrior can end with I believe 48 energy. Don't fret about the loss of a shield, nobody attacks you anyway.

I am lead to believe that to properly make use of warriors you will probably need to mold the entire teams build around them. Bring some buffs and some disenchants and you can send them cheesy air eles running for the hills.

1.Speed boosts dont last as long as other job equivilants and are slower, in addition to being vulnerable to enemy snares. Also, even if you are able to get next to the target, the character still has to stop to make the attack animation, giving a space between the characters dropping the potential warrior dps through the floor.

2. Barring wild blow for stances, the rest of the "always hit" attacks tend to be:
A) 1-2 per weapon and cycle slow/requiring energy.
or
B) Warriors cunning, which only has ~10 seconds of life for every minute (skill depending)
This also ignores the "miss" hexes and the blind condition, for which no warrior skill compensates for.

3. To ge that high of an energy pool, is akin to an elementalist getting over 100 energy. Sure you have a decent pool to draw from, but unless you are actually regening that pool quickly, its just going to waste. If the build is that heavy in the other job, then i'd guess you would be better off as the "other" job as a primary instead to get the benefit of increased mana regen as a side effect. This would allow you to sustain your activities, instead of spurt casting/skill use or being extreemly vulnerable to any form of energy drain. Granted there are options and combinations to help regain the energy, but either require you to be attacked by melee, or strike the target in melee, which returns you to the problem of being ignored/having difficulty striking the target consistantly.

Tuna · Jun 24, 2005, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

1.Speed boosts dont last as long as other job equivilants and are slower, in addition to being vulnerable to enemy snares. Also, even if you are able to get next to the target, the character still has to stop to make the attack animation, giving a space between the characters dropping the potential warrior dps through the floor.

True, a speed boost is probably the worst way to deal with a runner. However, the only warrior with now way to stop a runner is axe, and axe warriors have really high dps (30-70regular 50-120skill) This means that running monk is going to have to stop in a few hits to heal himself. It should also be noted that most monks can't selfheal for more than ~140. Just keep hitting and hope a. the monk isn't being healed by another monk and b. it isn't a prot monk. Unfortunately both a and b happen often so the safest bet is to have someone else cripple/slow the target.

Quote:

B) Warriors cunning, which only has ~10 seconds of life for every minute (skill depending)
This also ignores the "miss" hexes and the blind condition, for which no warrior skill compensates for.

Warriors Cunning hits through everything. Most defencive skills will only last for roughly 10 seconds also. If you really have a problem bring rigor mortis.

Quote:

3. To ge that high of an energy pool, is akin to an elementalist getting over 100 energy. Sure you have a decent pool to draw from, but unless you are actually regening that pool quickly, its just going to waste. If the build is that heavy in the other job, then i'd guess you would be better off as the "other" job as a primary instead to get the benefit of increased mana regen as a side effect. This would allow you to sustain your activities, instead of spurt casting/skill use or being extreemly vulnerable to any form of energy drain. Granted there are options and combinations to help regain the energy, but either require you to be attacked by melee, or strike the target in melee, which returns you to the problem of being ignored/having difficulty striking the target consistantly.

I believe 48 energy on a warrior is done w/ full gladiators -hat and a +12 energy focus. The low energy recharge is limiting but these amounts of energy will allow you to opperate for quite a while. I believe there are several warrior skills that can help if your build absolutely eats energy. Going for a different primary is a bad idea since strength is what is going to give you your damage.

Eclair · Jun 24, 2005, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

True, a speed boost is probably the worst way to deal with a runner. However, the only warrior with now way to stop a runner is axe, and axe warriors have really high dps (30-70regular 50-120skill) This means that running monk is going to have to stop in a few hits to heal himself. It should also be noted that most monks can't selfheal for more than ~140. Just keep hitting and hope a. the monk isn't being healed by another monk and b. it isn't a prot monk. Unfortunately both a and b happen often so the safest bet is to have someone else cripple/slow the target.

Warriors Cunning hits through everything. Most defencive skills will only last for roughly 10 seconds also. If you really have a problem bring rigor mortis.

I believe 48 energy on a warrior is done w/ full gladiators -hat and a +12 energy focus. The low energy recharge is limiting but these amounts of energy will allow you to opperate for quite a while. I believe there are several warrior skills that can help if your build absolutely eats energy. Going for a different primary is a bad idea since strength is what is going to give you your damage.

Since you won't be targetted with damage, bringing a focus is probably a lot more useful than a shield too =P

Zeru · Jun 24, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Well built warriors seem really great until you start encountering ward spam. Low numbers of wards can be countered with aoes like chaos storm and maelstorm but wards can be spammed and aoe cannot, unless you're considering barrage, which would be potentially useful in this case.

Vs multiple ward of melees and foes, there's really not much you can do. Warriors cunning as a terrible recharge of 60 seconds. That 10 second hitting time is great for building up adren with frenzy or beserkers stance/battle rage but it's going to be down 83% of the time which is very bad. Rigor Mortis is just really not that great overall, especially with ward of foes up and not enough aoe to blast them out of it.

Raiddinn Beatdropper · Jun 24, 2005, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Sprint is not a bad skill for when you need to stay on someone, its not any different than crippling them and walking after them.

Against a team with good condition and hex removal its about all you can do, and its even semi useful if they try to body block you because with your increased speed you might even catch up to the guy u are chasing after taking the long way.

Sprint is IMHO the best at what it does, maybe ward against foes is better, depending on battle location though.

It really sucks if someone is able to run figure 8's through a ward against foes and u are trying to follow them.

Tsunamii Starshine

Spideyknight · Jun 25, 2005, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Flourish ftw on the recast times for the skills that can't be blocked or evaded. Wait for a nasty spell and then Savage Slash(43)+Pure strike(32) + Seeking Blade(21 and if he's in a ward he bleeds), then Flourish, and repeat gets anyone ripe for the Final Thrust. Thanks, next target please.

If you go with the high energy and want to have a little fun, bring Plague Touch. Ranger's like to give you conditions to pass along to their monk. Nice guys, all around. You can also give that elementalist or Ranger back his blind, it won't effect the ele, but at least it won't affect you. The Ranger may not appreciate it though.

Phades · Jun 25, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

True, a speed boost is probably the worst way to deal with a runner. However, the only warrior with now way to stop a runner is axe, and axe warriors have really high dps (30-70regular 50-120skill) This means that running monk is going to have to stop in a few hits to heal himself. It should also be noted that most monks can't selfheal for more than ~140. Just keep hitting and hope a. the monk isn't being healed by another monk and b. it isn't a prot monk. Unfortunately both a and b happen often so the safest bet is to have someone else cripple/slow the target.

Warriors Cunning hits through everything. Most defencive skills will only last for roughly 10 seconds also. If you really have a problem bring rigor mortis.

I believe 48 energy on a warrior is done w/ full gladiators -hat and a +12 energy focus. The low energy recharge is limiting but these amounts of energy will allow you to opperate for quite a while. I believe there are several warrior skills that can help if your build absolutely eats energy. Going for a different primary is a bad idea since strength is what is going to give you your damage.

Miss hexes/conditions are different from block/evade defenses. They override the cannot be blocked or evaded condition. Bug or design "feature" im not sure, but it plays out that way consistantly. Sure ageis and other select monk buffs cant be kept up forever from one character, but more than one character can sustain it indefinatly without outside interference. Wards can be kept up indefinatly. Some stances can be kept up indefinatly. Many stances can be alternated and kept up indefinatly. 10 seconds of hits on someone who can sustain a defense is garbage basically. Until the warrior skills for offense can be sustained indefinatly, then its a pretty moot point. (stances dont stack btw) Also, only defenses from the warrior class last around ~10 seconds, while other classes defenses tend to last twice that amount and recycle faster than the warior stances, nor have the stipulation that they end when a skill is used. No gear for making stances last longer from what ive seen either, but considering a decoy setup as a ranger using whirling defense/dryder's defense/escape, im not sure if thats a good or a bad thing.

I think nothing will address the attack animation problem that warriors suffer from, because even with a snare or speed boost it still affects the warrior. And strength is at the bottom of the heap, just above soul reaping in terms of usefulness. 1% per level, only when a attack skill is used, just doesnt cut it. Warriors are the only job that is faced with the dilema that they must use their class skills in order to take advantage or their job trait. Not only that, but they also must spam them and overcome melee defenses. Warrior skills are neither spammy or always hit across the board. In addition the warrior regen rate isnt enough to support more than 2 without flourish (energy based skills) and a stance.

Even with 48 base mana, the regen will not keep up with a couple 10 mana skills and one or two 5 mana skills spammed in order to survive. Its why rangers get mana regen bonuses i believe. But i still cant understand why warriors get an ability that mimic's the ranger skill melandru's resliliance, but is very inferior to it in every way. Much in a similar way that stormchaser truncates sprint, but it is comparing an out of place eliete to a regular skill comparison though.

this_barb · Jun 26, 2005, 06:13 AM // 06:13

I recently played an all-warrior team in tombs. We were running 4 warriors, 1 ranger throwing down natures renewal and quickening zephyr every 20 seconds, and 3 monks.

To say the least, we really owned wherever we played. The monks were spared much by not having to heal the warriors. Nature's renewal stripped everyone of enchantments and hexes (which none of the warriors or monks used) and we also used quickening zephyr which also did not affect the players in the build as they all had energy management skills or didnt use energy skills at all (warriors).

kuramaroze · Jun 26, 2005, 06:34 AM // 06:34

I also played a warrior heavy group today and it did pretty well. We did pretty well, but we could have easily done better if we had better communication (only 3 of us had mics, and nobody was too great at calling targets). At our prime, we ran two healer monks, an e/mo protector, 3 w/e kd+aftershockers, and 2 earth eles running wards, aftershock and various knockdowns. It wasn't war heavy, but we had similar results from as many as 5 warriors in the tombs. We'd have one guy knock down the target, followed by 5 aftershocks, and they'd die. In the case of a good protector monk, we would just beat him down with out hammers when he tried to recast protective spirit, then shock him when he's weak. Our major weakness was koreans, since we never actually beat any of them. Mesmers were also our weakness, but everybody must have a weakness. If their healers didn't notice we were about to knock the crap out of their mesmer, though, we were fine. But thats not the point. The point is that Warriors can still compete in the Hall of Heroes given the right party.

The Red Knight · Jun 26, 2005, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Sword dosent suck in pvp 200 damage final thrusts are never bad :b

Yukito Kunisaki · Jun 27, 2005, 07:28 AM // 07:28

yay for sticking dead horse to death...

I can say an elementalist sucks in pvp for various reasons myself! ^_^

Every class sucks at one aspect no matter the combo class you make, but they kick ass at other aspects so let's just focus on the 'this class rocks' part than the 'your class sucks' part...

Kashrlyyk · Jun 27, 2005, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lestat Requiem

decent build

But soothing images or sympathetic visage will prevent you from using adrenaline skills for up to 18 seconds! That will render The Justice´s build complete useless, right?

Phades · Jun 27, 2005, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

yay for sticking dead horse to death...

I can say an elementalist sucks in pvp for various reasons myself! ^_^

Every class sucks at one aspect no matter the combo class you make, but they kick ass at other aspects so let's just focus on the 'this class rocks' part than the 'your class sucks' part...

Many have more conditions when they rock then when they suck though. Can you honestly think of when having a monk around sucks?

SirTressman · Jun 28, 2005, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Personaly no class sucks its just the Warroirs or some of them have not figure out what works it take time

when ur a noob warroirs are pwntage nothing can stop them but they do deline alot when they get near the end in PVP what gets the warroirs is the dam Traper Rangers

but i am a traper rangers so i know what i am taking about i love to see warroirs just run in to my traps its give me pure Preasure

what warroirs need to learn is to avoid traps and to attack in groups with support with ur team