Curse

ICURADik · Jun 23, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

As most of you have read in the original Treatise on Combat Mathematics, going from level 12 to level 16 weapon skill supposedly only adds about 15% more damage. A relatively small number, considering the number of points required. But has anyone ever examined the effect on critical hits?

A normal critical hit using a bow with 12 Marksmanship is only 28*1.20*1.15*2^((5*12-40/40)= 55 damage.

A normal critical hit using a bow with 16 Marksmanship is 28*1.20*1.15*1.15*2^((5*16-40/40)= 89 damage. 61% more damage.

The general figure for criticals is about 1 in 10 attacks with 12 in a weapon skill. Has anyone tested this with 16 in a weapon skill? If you went from say 1/10 attacks to 1/3 then you are really doing a very large amount more damage.

Previously you do 9 non criticals which hit for an average of (28+15/2)*1.20*1.15=30 damage then one critical for 55 damage in a 10 hit time frame. A total of 325.

Keep in mind this is only a guess. Lets say with 16 Marks 7 of your hits are non criticals. (28+15/2)*1.20*1.15*1.15=34 damage then 3 more criticals for 89 damage. 505 damage total. Approximately 55% more damage. Much more than the 15% often quoted.

We also need to factor in certain weapon effects such as penetrating attack and barrage which should tend to help the player with 12 Marksmanship catch up in overall damage. At level 12 Marks penetrating attack and barrage add 15, and 13 damage respectively. At 16 Marks they add 19 and 17 damage respectively. Along with the 20% penetration for each Penetrating attack. Lets say a ranger goes back and forth spamming these two skills. Using Penetrating once, then barrage, then a normal hit, repeatedely. 3 attacks should be penetrating's and 3 should be barrages.

For 12 Marks this adds 3*15+3*13 damage. Bringing our previous total to 412.
For 16 Marks this adds 3*19+3*17 damage. Bringing our previous total to 613. 49% more damage. Still almost 50% more.

I realize it's very tough getting 16 weapon mastery along with the standard 13 or 14 expertise. You would need to sacrifice at least 125 hp to reach these numbers... But what you gain may in fact be worth it. 50% more base damage means you are doing the damage of 1.5 players. Since Warriors and Rangers are rarely targeted first the loss in HP is not a big problem. Many battles come down to efficiency. Efficiency in damage, and efficiency in healing/energy usage. A 500 hp caster may in fact go through thousands of damage while he is being focus fired. And your ability to take down the other teams monks or mesmers matters much more than your HP... to an extent. I'm not advocating running 4 superior runes, but 2 may be a good choice.

A simple 12+4, 11+3, 5, 3+1 could be very handy on a Ranger. 5 in protection for protective spirit, which will take advantage of your rather pathetic HP, and 3 in Beast Mastery for Tiger's Fury for another 33% more damage. If you felt the HP hit was such a problem you could even add in Symbiosis, for 60 more hp for every enchantment you recieve. Along with Fertile season for another 141 Hp(I'm pretty sure this number is wrong now, I blame any innacuracies on GWG). You should be running around with around 600 hp now. While your enemies may have about 750. Keep in mind you do 50% more damage than their warrior/rangers, while they only have 25% more life. It's not hard to guess who will win in a fight between the two.

Any thoughts? I think I covered all the usual counters to having a high weapon skill(ex. "additional damage from weapon attacks are most of your damage so your weapon skill doesnt matter"). I am really quite intrested in seeing the exact effect on criticals going from 12 to 16 weapon skill has. I remember my ranger being level 12 with level 9 marksmanship and hitting for a critical every other attack against level 3-6 mobs. It seems as though an unusually high weapon skill could add signifigantly to their frequency.

ICURADik · Jun 23, 2005, 11:39 PM // 23:39

So I did a little playing around, with various level monsters from 3 to 20, and a couple higher than that. One thing that I can definately confirm is that crits do much more damage with 16 weapon skill. I think 60% more is fairly accurate. On level 3 stuff I would go from 70ish to 120 or more. Using an attack skill I would go from 90 to almost 150. But it seems like the crit rate is still almost pathetically low. With 12 Marks I was definately doing less than 10% critical. More like 5%. Almost all my criticals were using Penertrating attack + Judge's insight too. With 16 marks those numbers definately went up. Most likely breaking 10%, but not a whole lot more. Once again a large number of criticals came from Penetrating + Judge's Insight. I'm beginning to honestly wonder if armor plays a mojor role in critical calculation. Now that I think back, those 60+ hits in normal PvE that occasionally happen have usually been on Penetrating attacks on casterish monsters. It's not very easy to test this against level 20 monsters because of the rather harsh anti-farming measures. If someone knows a good place that I can pelt away at a very high hp monster relatively safely give me a heads up.

Slade xTekno · Jun 23, 2005, 11:45 PM // 23:45

I am very glad you posted this, for this was one of the issues that lingered with me after I read the original Combat Mathematics article on GWG. This may help keep those in doubt of a Superior Rune's potential at bay. If this information spreads, one may see an increase in the price of Superior Runes in the future.

ICURADik · Jun 24, 2005, 12:57 AM // 00:57

PvP Testing... I don't know what's up with PvE, but I crit players at least 20-30% with 16 marks. Just hit a warrior with debilitating shot for 75! Judge's Insight and Penetrating was critting for like 90 on warriors and 120ish on casters. Even without crits I am doing nearly 40-50 per hit. I would seriously recomend this site do some rethinking of their hate of 12+ weapon skills.

burianek · Jun 24, 2005, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Wow.
Nice sleuthing! I'm on the edge of my seat to see what else you find out. After reading the gospel according to ensign (which is a very very nice article), I've never even attempted to raise my marks above 12.
75 dmg on a warrior seems to good to be true.
Cheers.

ICURADik · Jun 24, 2005, 01:46 PM // 13:46

My earlier testing was mostly in the Random 4v4 arena. Did some HoH last night and the number of enchantments people were running was really huting my damage. If you plan on doing damage as a warrior or ranger you definately need enchantment removal. Life Bond + Protective Spirit + Aegis + Reversal of fortune and your target can't really be damaged.

ICURADik · Jun 24, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Some numbers for Axe/Sword/Maces

Axe numbers are identical to bows.

A normal critical hit using a sword with 12 Sword Mastery is only 22*1.20*1.15*2^((5*12-40/40)= 43 damage

A normal critical hit using a sword with 16 Sword Mastery is 22*1.20*1.15*1.15*2^((5*16-40/40)= 70 damage.

A normal critical hit using a hammer with 12 Hammer mastery is only 35*1.20*1.15*2^((5*12-40/40)= 68 damage.

A normal critical hit using a hammer with 16 Hammer Mastery is 35*1.20*1.15*1.15*2^((5*16-40/40)= 111 damage.

Obviously axe is a better weapon choice over swords with very high weapon skills. Hammer is still sorta in a league of its own.

Zrave · Jul 03, 2005, 10:30 PM // 22:30

If I'm understanding those equations correctly you made two mistakes:

1) on the level 16 attribute formulas, a second *1.15 pops out of nowhere. Is this not the weapon modifier?

2) you multiply by 5*16 even though that equation is only valid up to 12. Levels 1-12 are worth 5 each, levels 13-16 worth 2 each.

The easiest way to test how much more damage you are dealing on a critical is using wild blow without strength stat. I tested it briefly a while ago and didn't see anything that would justify what you are proposing.

All that being said, I always have 16 attribute on my warriors because of a perceived increase in critical rate (we still need a good formula for that), and also because attack skills often increase in damage by 33%.

ICURADik · Jul 04, 2005, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zrave

If I'm understanding those equations correctly you made two mistakes:

1) on the level 16 attribute formulas, a second *1.15 pops out of nowhere. Is this not the weapon modifier?

2) you multiply by 5*16 even though that equation is only valid up to 12. Levels 1-12 are worth 5 each, levels 13-16 worth 2 each.

The easiest way to test how much more damage you are dealing on a critical is using wild blow without strength stat. I tested it briefly a while ago and didn't see anything that would justify what you are proposing.

All that being said, I always have 16 attribute on my warriors because of a perceived increase in critical rate (we still need a good formula for that), and also because attack skills often increase in damage by 33%.

The second 15% comes from having level 16 skill. The difference between level 16 and level 12 to normal damage is 15%. It clearly list this in the Original Treatise on Combat Mechanics. I am not 100% sure if it also applies to criticals. But I am fairly sure that if the cutomization applies, then the skill bonus almost certainly applies.

Quote:

Every time you strike a foe with a weapon of any sort you have a chance of landing a critical hit. Each critical hit strikes for maximum damage, with the additional bonus of hitting as though your weapon attribute were four levels higher. I'd be breaking form if I didn't list an equation, so here you go:

Quote:

[Effective Damage] = [Max Weapon Damage] × 2(( 5 × [Attribute Level] - 40 ) / 40)

That is the listed formula for Criticals. In his example he uses 12 in place of [Attribute Level]. For our example we use 16 in place of 12. The formula is sketchy at best. But if there is a 41% increase for a crit with 12 weapon skills, then I don't think it is outlandish to say a 100% increase with level 16. I will do some more testing. But when attacking low level monsters there is a very very large difference.

If you have an accurate formula for 12+ weapon skills then feel free to post/link it.

Edit:
Testing: On level 3 Plague Devourer's Directly outside of Ascalon

Level 12 Marksmanship: 109 damage
Level 16 Marksmanship: 174 damage. 60% more damage.
Edit #2: Bah... 2 or 3 different monsters spawn in the same spot. Just hit one for 150sih with 12 marks. I'll start keeping track of the names and levels along with the damage.

spacemonkeymafia · Jul 04, 2005, 05:51 AM // 05:51

very nice

ICURADik · Jul 04, 2005, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Wow, I got owned by this crap. Why didn't someone else point something out earlier...
Level-Monster-Crit with 12 Marks->16 Marks
Lvl3 Plague Devourer 152 -> 174
Lvl4 Carrion Devourer 100 -> 115
Lvl5 Whiptail Devourer 109 -> 125

Exactly 15% in all cases. Contemplating deleting this whole thread now...

Red Locust · Jul 04, 2005, 06:56 AM // 06:56

are those critical hits that you just listed?

Phades · Jul 04, 2005, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Id guess regular hits considering the targets involved, without any further explanation.

ICURADik · Jul 04, 2005, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

are those critical hits that you just listed?

Edited it.

Red Locust · Jul 04, 2005, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Great, so critical hits are still only 15% better. Still, the increased attack skill damage alone is enough reason to have a 16 in your attribute.