Curse

crow_killer · May 18, 2005, 03:52 PM // 15:52

HOW DARE YOU! Rangers own. My ranger has high expertise and wilserness survival. I am a secondry elementalist but somehow i work better with just ranger skills. If you lay a trap and use a skill like whirling defences and troll unguent it can be very hard to kill you. hope this helps

Defafnyr · May 18, 2005, 05:49 PM // 17:49

I went into the PVP creator today and experimented with a ranger only build.

People are saying that high expertise makes your spells use less energy and they can spam their spells and never run out of energy. But putting max points in expertise in this experiment build shows NO difference in spell cost. It only increases the amount of damage that spell does or as in dodge, the % chance to evade.

Expertise in no way reduced the spell cost of any spells.

So how does high expertise help out a ranger over all except for that particular line of spells?

Lasher Dragon · May 18, 2005, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Expertise reduces the costs of all Attack Skills, Traps, and Preparations.

Defafnyr · May 18, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

Expertise reduces the costs of all Attack Skills, Traps, and Preparations.

Yea, I compared them too. Putting 12 points (max) into expertise in the pvp creator character does NOT reduce ANY of the spell costs. I compared them all.

All high expertise did to the character's skill in creator was effect the damage output and % to evade in the expertise line. Go check it out. NONE of the spell costs changed a single point.

Spells that at 0 expertise that cost 10 to cast, stayed 10 to cast when raising expertise to max points. None of the spell costs changed, not in expertise line, or any of the other lines

Epinephrine · May 18, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

Expertise reduces the costs of all Attack Skills, Traps, and Preparations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwonline.net

Expertise: For each rank of Expertise the energy cost of your skills of types "skill", "attack skill", "glyph", "preparations", "nature ritual", "shout", "stance" and "trap" decreases by 4%.

So it also does skills, stances, shouts, pet attacks, nature rituals and apparently, glyphs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defafnyr

Yea, I compared them too. Putting 12 points (max) into expertise in the pvp creator character does NOT reduce ANY of the spell costs. I compared them all.

Then either you observed poorly or the program is wrong. In game it works fine. The cost listed in the skill desciption will not change, only the amount of energy actually used. In addition, the reduction is off the base cost of the skill, and occurs after multiplicative modifiers after my testing; i.e. If you use Quickening Zephyr it boosts the cost of skills 30% - this occurs before the reductionof costs, so if you have 14 expertise and cast a 10 cost skill it costs 7 energy (10*1.3=13, minus the 6 energy savings=7) as opposed to costing 5 (10-6=4, 4*1.3 =5.2=~5)

Defafnyr · May 18, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

I see no proof of that. I put expertise at 12 and every skill, every one of them displayed NO change in energy cost. None, nada, zip. With 0 in expertise they display the SAME energy cost as putting 12 points into expertise.

Go into the pvp creator and see for yourself. Roll a ranger. Check out the skill costs with 0 expertise. Then load up the max points you can put into expertise. The energy cost of each and every skill remains the same.

I need proof.

Epinephrine · May 18, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defafnyr

I see no proof of that. I put expertise at 12 and every skill, every one of them displayed NO change in energy cost. None, nada, zip. With 0 in expertise they display the SAME energy cost as putting 12 points into expertise.

Go into the pvp creator and see for yourself. Roll a ranger. Check out the skill costs with 0 expertise. Then load up the max points you can put into expertise. The energy cost of each and every skill remains the same.

I need proof.

Then load one up in game. I know it works because I use it every day, and have done testing on it. The displayed cost does not change, the amount of energy used does. Use the skill, see less energy drain off your energy bar. I don't care if your builder doesn't show it, that just means that the builder is wrong. The game has it, and I have tested it. I don't know what kind of proof you need other than the published adata, the word of people playing since the first BWE and the fact that you are basing the supposition that it doesn't work off a 3rd party program, while I am basing it on in game experiences.

Lasher Dragon · May 18, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

So it also does skills, stances, shouts, pet attacks, nature rituals and apparently, glyphs.

Cool, I did not know that. I hardly ever use shouts, pet attacks, or glyphs.

Defafnyr · May 18, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

I will take your word for it then.

The skill description does NOT change, but if enough of you say that in REALITY it does change in-game during use, that the energy bar uses less, then that's proof enough. But you have to understand, I had to have people who have actually TESTED this post their results.

There are way too many threads and posts where people are spouting opinion as fact, or based on a 5th level character and have no real experience with the "facts" they are trying to use to prove their points.

I've read enough of Epi's posts to respect his results. No offense to anyone else. It's just a bit hard sometimes to separate the opinions from facts without getting info from someone who can back up their opinion.

Flatliner · May 18, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Its because most Rangers don't play the role they are best at. Rangers are best as a Caster-Interuptor. A lot of the rangers I see seem to think they are pure damage dealers and are 1/2 as effective as they should be because of their skills, regarless of if they are good or not.

Epinephrine · May 18, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defafnyr

I will take your word for it then.

The skill description does NOT change, but if enough of you say that in REALITY it does change in-game during use, that the energy bar uses less, then that's proof enough. But you have to understand, I had to have people who have actually TESTED this post their results.

There are way too many threads and posts where people are spouting opinion as fact, or based on a 5th level character and have no real experience with the "facts" they are trying to use to prove their points.

I've read enough of Epi's posts to respect his results. No offense to anyone else. It's just a bit hard sometimes to separate the opinions from facts without getting info from someone who can back up their opinion.

To be fair, I haven't tested it on all skill types. I am surprised to see that Glyphs for example are on the list at GWonline.net; I've never tried them, nor have I tried Shouts that I can recall - I've only so far played R/Mo and R/Me, and an R/W for a short while that I didn't like much. I know the reductions work fine on the Attack Skills, Pet Attacks, Preparations etc... I was a bit annoyed that the skill description doesn't change, it really should so you know when you've hit a breakpoint, instead of having to figure out when you will hit the break points, but now I know them so it isn't such a big deal, and there is the list of costs at http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...sts-id1154.php.

Lasher Dragon · May 18, 2005, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defafnyr

I see no proof of that. I put expertise at 12 and every skill, every one of them displayed NO change in energy cost. None, nada, zip. With 0 in expertise they display the SAME energy cost as putting 12 points into expertise.

Go into the pvp creator and see for yourself. Roll a ranger. Check out the skill costs with 0 expertise. Then load up the max points you can put into expertise. The energy cost of each and every skill remains the same.

I need proof.

Even in the actual game, the cost listed never changes - only the cost deducted from your mana bar. Yes, I know, it's weird since skills are usually updated per the attribute(s) affecting them, but the cost deduction from Expertise has never been shown as far as I can tell. I have 12 ranks in Expertise - if I hit a skill that says it takes 10 mana, when I watch my mana bar it goes down by about 5.

TheZoologist · May 18, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defafnyr

I will take your word for it then.

The skill description does NOT change, but if enough of you say that in REALITY it does change in-game during use, that the energy bar uses less, then that's proof enough. But you have to understand, I had to have people who have actually TESTED this post their results.

For expertise 12 (understand that all costs are rounded to nearest whole number):

5 energy skills = .52 * 5 = 2.6 = 3 energy points actual cost

10 energy skills = .52 * 10 = 5.2 = 5 energy points actual cost

15 energy skills = .52 * 15 = 7.8 = 8 energy points actual cost

25 energy skills = .52 * 25 = 13 energy points actual cost

Because of rounding, not every increase in the Expertise attribute produces a change in every skill's cost.

Bigb04202 · May 18, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by roselan

what I see through this thread is that the only way for rangers to make some impact is that the opposite team is doing some, let's face it, noobish, misstakes.

disruptive rangers are not dissruptive as soon as they have a warrior on their back. they are dead. Sure they can bring swirling defense, reflexes, throw dirt, pin down, penetrating shoot, troll perfume. Well that's not a lot left to get disruptive.

High dmg rangers are not even better, as they need to disrupt to deal damage... meaning no skill left for defense. Again as soon as you pound on opposite mage/casters, you are toast, as you attract fire.

The point is that a warrior can kill a ranger pretty fast, but a ranger can't kill a warrior, despise all his tricks, ever. Moreover, a ranger is on par with warriors to kill casters. (Anti-warrior casters works usually quite well against rangers too).

Sure rangers can play well, but the ennemy too. There is some smart wamos out there too ya know ^^

Rangers can make a very positive impact can take down just about anyone one on one. The other team doesn’t haft to make newb mistakes you just haft to make the right ones. Disruptive rangers is what I believe to be the best type of ranger and I tell you why. Mesmer are the best anti mage builds out there but rangers are almost as good not only that a ranger can take a heaver beating than a Mesmer. No ranger is going to bring swirling defense, reflexes, throw dirt all 3 defense you only need 1. You take one defense and pin down time them right that warrior going to be a dead warrior unless he uses an interrupt on you. Back to being pure Disruptive rangers they have Distract shot and Concussion shot both recharge in 10 sec so you can spam every 5 sec if you time right. I know ranger have other disruptive elite powers I don’t think you are going to being over 2 disruptive powers. Ranger can deal decent damage there not the best nor the worse but good enough to kill a mage with quickness. I’m a level 20 RA/Me he my only character and I spent way to long on this game. I am still learning every day playing with my skills in PvP so I tweak and experiment all the time. Unless you actually have a level 14 or 15 ranger its really hard to give a educated answer because you really don’t see what they can do till that level..

Mouser · May 18, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

Even in the actual game, the cost listed never changes - only the cost deducted from your mana bar. Yes, I know, it's weird since skills are usually updated per the attribute(s) affecting them, but the cost deduction from Expertise has never been shown as far as I can tell. I have 12 ranks in Expertise - if I hit a skill that says it takes 10 mana, when I watch my mana bar it goes down by about 5.

I was confused about that the first time I played as well. The way Expertise works and is displayed in-game is very misleading. We SHOULD see the real cost of the skill displayed in the bar, modified for Expertise skill (i.e., Power Shot costing 8 points at Expertise 4, rather than 10, as it is currently shown.) Instead, we have to do some math on-the-fly to determine what the current cost of our skills are.

Defafnyr, you're gonna have to accept the fact that Expertise DOES provide an effect, but you can only see it in-game when skills are being used. Build a quick beginning ranger, put at least 2 points into Expertise, then try Power Shot. The skill description will state the cost is 10 energy, but when you actually use the skill, it will only draw 9 points upon use.

Cheers,
-M

Defafnyr · May 18, 2005, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Messed around with my 10th level ranger, yep, you peoples are right....and thank you.

Neo-LD · May 19, 2005, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defafnyr

Expertise in no way reduced the spell cost of any spells.

?

The energy cost decrease is not shown in the descriptions, but you can see it when you tap the penetrating shot button while at 5 mana and fire it anyways.

Defafnyr · May 19, 2005, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

The energy cost decrease is not shown in the descriptions, but you can see it when you tap the penetrating shot button while at 5 mana and fire it anyways.

That's exactly what I did. And you are all right. Again, thank you.

Yukito Kunisaki · May 19, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

You obviously didn't fight King Jakk or Run Like the Wind.

I've fought alongside the first and heard about the second, but they do the thigns that a ranger supposed to do best.

Run and shoot, run and shoot, run again and shoot. Never get hit...

When a team gets annoyed by that ingenius ranger that doesn't seem to be caught/killed, I laugh... They obviously didn't bring THE SKILL to hurt/counter them or worse....

i.e. I was in pvp fighting and my whole team killed the enemy team save one warrior girl. She kept running, healing our snares, and healing herself JUST ENOUGH to keep a few hp on her bar. She kept running... Lo and behold, I put away my sword and shield, nock an arrow to my bow, and bam, that little bit of hp she was holding on and running with suddenly disappeared...

FOR GOD'S SAKE WILL YOU WARRIORS CARRY MORE THAN JUST YOUR MELEE WEAPONS!!!!!

Striker Shardale · May 19, 2005, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Crippling Shot.... do not leave home without it. It bothers me so much how often people run away and will do so for several minutes before collapsing.

I have learned to bring Crippling Shot and Hunter's Shot.
By the way, you can get Barrage and Melandru's Arrows around Thunderhead Keep