Curse

Red Locust · Jul 09, 2005, 11:52 PM // 23:52

You know what would really make spirit spam obsolete while still allowing the ranger full use of his spirits? Adding a "this action is easily interrupted" line at the end of spirit skills. That way, rangers will be able to get in their occasional spirits, yet when they try to spam them like nobody's business, people would clue in and easily interrupt the ranger.

No more bullshit 30-something spirits around the HoH, yet no considerable nerf to spirits themselves.

Mulatto · Jul 10, 2005, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kishin

There were/are plenty of anti-Air elementalist defenses besides spirit spam. Anyone who's complaining about that still needs to go root out a decent protection monk, and then explore the wonderful elementalist skills that begin with the word 'Ward'.

Spirit spam is also beatable, my only comment on the matter is that spirits need to be made transparent (since they are incorporeal beings essentially) so that it can't be abused to wall off relics or something like that. Innovative, yes. Intended use of skill? Probably not. Unless I missed Blockade Spirit on my last trip to the trainer.

Well, that and the fact that spirit spammers need to learn to make better spirit spam builds where they actually kill things instead of just sit there and pluck away for 30+ minutes.

people say Use an AOE or something right to kill the spirits and u need to explore the wonderful fact that u pointed out the only way to beat an elementalist is be an elementalist. I'm not saying air I'm saying all, the only elementalist that is tone down is the water and thats pushing it the rest is insane. aftershock, air spam the list goes on and on. its the answer to everything is an ele and when u have a bunch of elementalist prime and second running arround and find that a r/me is made then I guess something need to be done with both ranger spam and eles. it seems to me other blances were made before but the elementalist are un touched. and dont tell me that a monk can put life bond on 8 people come on now 2 monks maybe just maybe if u have good monks. and backfire can only be put on 1 elementalist at a time u cant spam backfire if there is 8 of them. I say if u dont knock down the damage of the elementalist then let the rangers live on and let it be a Spam wars :P insted of a Guild wars

Kishin · Jul 10, 2005, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Um, no. Did you hear the part where I said a Protection Monk? and I wasn't talking about Life Bond. Perhaps you've heard of Protective Spirit?

But, you're too busy whining about how Elementalists are overpowered to listen to reason. Elementalists do damage. That is their specialty. Its your problem, not a design problem, if you can't figure out a way to stop it.

Mulatto · Jul 10, 2005, 02:10 AM // 02:10

whos whining dude? u are. I'm just point out the facts that its just going to be 1 big spamming family. nobody knows who the 1 target is going to be, u cant energy dump protective spells before the match starts. and any good air ele can see if some one is enchanted or not. and will be able to stripe the enchatment. "Perhaps you've heard of" that lil yellowish green arrow that points up. shut up dude and get ruled by the ranger u help create.

its the ranger specialty to be cunning and use what they have. they cant spam anything like eles, what so they have just a what else is there poision arrow? for real dude that easly stopped. how the hell are people suppose to learn how to play if they die instanly to 3 ele attacks. it is the design problem because nobody new will want to play if the game is played like that. lowwer the damage or give every character armor that helps with ele attacks and so on. and have the spirits get taken out with 1 hit. if not let Spam wars live on

Mulatto · Jul 10, 2005, 08:23 AM // 08:23

All I got to say is when u see a team of Allllllllllllllll Eles or alll Rangers or alllll monks something need to change because there are balance issues....... enough said

ManaCraft · Jul 10, 2005, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mulatto

All I got to say is when u see a team of Allllllllllllllll Eles or alll Rangers or alllll monks something need to change because there are balance issues....... enough said

Not really.

These are just examples of organized builds. Nothing more. The reason you see so many organized groups using only one class (except monks of course) in their build is because those are the easiest builds to put together. There's no particularly advanced strategy behind laying down a crapload of spirits, or spamming lightning orbs at the same time.

But it's simple, and it works. Which makes it ideal for your average PUG.

As time passes, you'll see more advanced groups that uses a blend of various classes in their build. But these are few and far between in comparison, because they're not as easy to put together or use as, say, your average spike group.

ManaCraft

Mulatto · Jul 11, 2005, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManaCraft

Not really.

These are just examples of organized builds. Nothing more. The reason you see so many organized groups using only one class (except monks of course) in their build is because those are the easiest builds to put together. There's no particularly advanced strategy behind laying down a crapload of spirits, or spamming lightning orbs at the same time.

But it's simple, and it works. Which makes it ideal for your average PUG.

As time passes, you'll see more advanced groups that uses a blend of various classes in their build. But these are few and far between in comparison, because they're not as easy to put together or use as, say, your average spike group.

ManaCraft

Sorry have to disagree; they are not examples of organized builds. They are exploits of the characters skills and need to be taken care of.

It’s simple, and it works because they are taken advantage of the over powered skills.

with no runes, spells or armor to increase your damage

Chain Lightning - Spell
Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10-82 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration

Lightning Orb - Spell
Lightning Orb flies towards target foe and strikes for 10-82 lightning damage if it hits. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Lightning Strike - Spell
Strike target foe for 5-41 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

% based attacks that means the more armor u have the more it penetrates

like a warrior 85x5 = 425 armor.
425 x .25 or (25%) = 106.25 armor penetration.
soo 425 - 106.25 = 318.75

this whole game runs on armor
its like running out there with your Cuirass off + 1/2 your leggings off

so not only does it take off the damage its suppose to it also takes off add damage because it penetrates.

u will not see a blend of various classes if things like spirit spam, all ele damage like after shock too being taken care of. u will only see what u see now

all ele groups, all rangers , all monks, like u see now, just more of it.

also less people joining and playing the game because of it.

and this game will fail in a years time

Phades · Jul 11, 2005, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Damage by location not by versus cumulative armor level rating. But generally yeah air does more damage against non-vulnerable targets like pcs. Only time it really wouldnt matter is against something that had zero armor level. I dont quite understand though as to why air gets shorter cast times, shorter recycle times, blind, knockdown, and the penetration in the same package while also having cheaper mana cost spells. Granted it doesnt get huge aoe spells, but fireball doesnt have that large of an aoe, malestorm's aoe is kinda small too considering its a persisting type.

Mulatto · Jul 11, 2005, 06:30 AM // 06:30

I see. so its would be 85 x .25. its like getting hit wearing yak's bend armor

the numbers are still the same and the effect still the same. And your right about the water magic. it is the most balanced out of all the ele skills and hardly ever used as u can see.

for those who think I'm just "whining" just want u to know I point out the issues with the game.The game is suppose to run on skill and team work. I would like to see people with rank that are good at thier prefessions. including warriors, necros and mesmers. which u never see a full team of warriors, necros or mesmers in the Hall of hero because they are Balanced characters. And not a bunch of spammers with TS

Thom · Jul 11, 2005, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Mulatto, you make this out to be much simpler than it is. "Spamming" applies to repeated casting of most any low energy short recast skill. Its a fast paced game with limited skills, so you end up repeating actions--so what. A quality spirit build requires the right balance of skills and rangers that know how to do some damage. Any quality build is about getting as much damage as possible in a short amount of time by maximizing the number of skills cast in a short period. "Spammers" are employing intended strategies and TS has been used as long as the game has been tested.

The reason there are many builds with a dominant class (all elems or all rangers) is because it is easier to have necessary synergy with these builds. It takes a while to cordinate members of different classes due to differing energy mechanisms. Elementalists are front loaded, Warriors are backloaded and rangers are fairly sporatic (think about the time between when a target is called and when max damage is done). Now if Elementalists were willing to wait for a Warrior to charge up before releasing damage, you could start building the synergy that is natural in single class builds.

Second reason you want a build of a single class is redundancy. In a game of counters, you don't want one skill or target selection to totally take you off your game. A good way to avoid this is repeating something, so losing a single player to death or shutdown doesn't kill your strategy. If you have 8 guys in 6 different classes, it is easy for opponents to identify a key strategy and shut it down.

Third reason, skill synergy (what helps me as a ranger will help all rangers including healing patterns etc); the best enchantment for a elementalist may not be the best for a ranger and vice versa. If everyone has the same weakness it is easier to counter that weakness.

Final reason, it takes longer to figure out what a group of the same class is doing. If you have 8 Mo/Wa, it is really tough to tell who you should be targeting without watching casting.

I ran an all mez group in the test a bit and it had potential. All warrior groups are also possible given the right tactics, but it is much more difficult to organize. I feel a group of 8 experience warriors properly built with TS could defeat most elementalist based groups.

The game is fairly well balanced. Some of the simplist strategies rise to the top first... no suprise there. What are the top guilds currently doing?

ManaCraft · Jul 11, 2005, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mulatto

for those who think I'm just "whining" just want u to know I point out the issues with the game.The game is suppose to run on skill and team work. I would like to see people with rank that are good at thier prefessions. including warriors, necros and mesmers. which u never see a full team of warriors, necros or mesmers in the Hall of hero because they are Balanced characters. And not a bunch of spammers with TS

You present a rather simplistic argument. This game is not based on which classes people play, only how well they can make said classes work together. An elementalist team is an obvious choice for the average PUG because an elementalist deals damage. Just plain damage, and lots of it. It's easy, and it works.

Having a balanced group that uses all classes gives you no special privileges, no inherent right to win. Instead, know your metagame. Bring skills to defeat the popular builds, and you will be successful.

And what's wrong with TS anyway?

ManaCraft

asdar · Jul 11, 2005, 04:19 PM // 16:19

People have very short memories. The build of the week has been around for a long time.

Here's a recap:

Week 1 - War/mo's can't be beat! They'd better fix this or else, and rangers suck
Week 2 - Mo's can't be beat! They'd better fix this or else, and rangers suck
Week 3 - Necro's with minions can't be beat! They'd better fix this or else, and rangers suck
Week 4 - Air Ele's can't be beat! They'd better fix this or else, and rangers suck
Week 5 - Ranger's can't be beat! They'd better fix this or else, and I never said rangers suck

arnansnow · Jul 11, 2005, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdar

People have very short memories. The build of the week has been around for a long time.

Here's a recap:

Week 1 - War/mo's can't be beat! They'd better fix this or else, and rangers suck
Week 2 - Mo's can't be beat! They'd better fix this or else, and rangers suck
Week 3 - Necro's with minions can't be beat! They'd better fix this or else, and rangers suck
Week 4 - Air Ele's can't be beat! They'd better fix this or else, and rangers suck
Week 5 - Ranger's can't be beat! They'd better fix this or else, and I never said rangers suck

When will they get to mesmers? Are they slated for week 6? Or is it back to W/Mo?

ICURADik · Jul 11, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

I think were into smiting monks now.

Mulatto · Jul 11, 2005, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Mulatto, you make this out to be much simpler than it is. "Spamming" applies to repeated casting of most any low energy short recast skill. Its a fast paced game with limited skills, so you end up repeating actions--so what. A quality spirit build requires the right balance of skills and rangers that know how to do some damage. Any quality build is about getting as much damage as possible in a short amount of time by maximizing the number of skills cast in a short period. "Spammers" are employing intended strategies and TS has been used as long as the game has been tested.

Thom I dont make simpler that what it seems. I tell it how it is and the way u read is how it is not because I'm soften it up or make it seem like that go read the numbers.

"1st" read all my other post before u comment on what I say. u see ranger spam because they have armor that protects them from ele attacks. ranger have already been nerfed Edge of Extinction was godly at one point. thier bows use to take off more. but its because this ele trend that people are trying to counter balance it. Spirit spam is there to confuse the enemy and it confuse them well but it still BS. I know spike groups get a lil aggrovated when they blow all thier nukes on a spirit and not a player. like I said before if u fix the ranger fix the eles. make it blanced

"2nd" there is NO/None or any strategy that comes to from Repeat actions. I have been beating by a good team because they were good in the arena before. and in the end even though I lost I still felt that it was a good game they were just better. when some one spams or takes advantage of over powered eles or ranger spirits then I feel cheated and others do too. will not feel like playing

"3rd"
when u see all class team, its is your first clue that they are all going to do the same thing over and over and over again and there is no strategy in that. all mesmer team has barely any "potential" because they only have +10 to Physical Damage no ele portection unless your in a stance. and if in stantce u lose Physical protection. so a mesmer can be easily beat by all prefessions. u will not see any of the 1 prefessions that they already nerf.

"Final reason" is why u wont see all mesmer all warrior all necro because thier perfession relies on other prefessions to support them. which is the way the game was suppose to be made. when u see a single group with the same prefession they dont need to rely on other perfessions because they are over powerd themselves.

if u want to call spamming a strategy and dont want to fix the problems then all of u will be playing Spam wars alone in a years time. and then the games will shut down and fame/rank will mean nothing because there will be no game.

And there is nothing wrong with TS at all. it what spike groups justify as strategy and thats BS. "working together" is not Nuking the same person.

lanilifar · Jul 12, 2005, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

"2nd" there is NO/None or any strategy that comes to from Repeat actions. I have been beating by a good team because they were good in the arena before. and in the end even though I lost I still felt that it was a good game they were just better. when some one spams or takes advantage of over powered eles or ranger spirits then I feel cheated and others do too. will not feel like playing

It is ok for a warrior to use 5 of the skills on their skill bar repeatedly to attack?
It is ok for a memer to use 5 of the skills on their skill bar repeatedly to interrupt and shutdown?
It is ok for a monk to use 5 of the skills on their skill bar repeatedly to heal and protect?
But if an elementalist or ranger uses 5 of the skills on their skill bar repeatedly, then it is broken?
Most builds have 4-6 skills which are used repeatedly, then 1 or 2 skills for specialized circumstances, and rez signet.
How do you play where you are not repeatedly using the same skills when you can only carry eight skills?

Strong Fist · Jul 12, 2005, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Edge of Extinction. Forget where you buy it...marhans grotto maybe. that might be natures renewal and frozen soil though.

oh yea, cuthbert is hot.

Mulatto · Jul 12, 2005, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by lanilifar

It is ok for a warrior to use 5 of the skills on their skill bar repeatedly to attack?
It is ok for a memer to use 5 of the skills on their skill bar repeatedly to interrupt and shutdown?
It is ok for a monk to use 5 of the skills on their skill bar repeatedly to heal and protect?
But if an elementalist or ranger uses 5 of the skills on their skill bar repeatedly, then it is broken?
Most builds have 4-6 skills which are used repeatedly, then 1 or 2 skills for specialized circumstances, and rez signet.
How do you play where you are not repeatedly using the same skills when you can only carry eight skills?

I guess u never played as a warrior or sepcially a mesmer. Mesmer has no interupting spells or shut down spells where he can spam. the recharges are slow with a mesmer. the Hex wears off before the the spell is recharged, backfire is a Domination hex not at Illusion hex so it cant last longer.

and none absulotely no adrenaline skills can be spammed at all. I personally think that Skull crack should not be a adrenaline skill but thats just me.

and consdiering the air ele is so fast with is air magic its hard to interupt with 7 fast casting back fire takes longer to cast then 2 air ele spells that have not fast casting

I suggest u play all the prefessions before u say something that u know nothing about. skill can be used over again thats fine but not back to back to back to back. that spam and not strategy

mamluk · Jul 13, 2005, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mulatto

T ranger have already been nerfed Edge of Extinction was godly at one point. thier bows use to take off more.

Anyone else remember that Beta weekend around last September where Edge of Extinction would just wipe out everyone fighting in the arenas? I remember sometimes it would kill both teams, that was always amusing.

Mulatto · Jul 13, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59

LoL yeah I remember

thats why it was godly