Curse

Spideyknight · Jun 24, 2005, 11:26 PM // 23:26

"Even if you have those can't evade moves and such, a warrior can't spam them efficiently."

Pure Strike, Seeking Blade, Savage Slash(or Hamstring), and Flourish for the win. 3 times in ~10 seconds isn't good enough? It's easiest with sword, but it can certainly be done axe/hammer. Throw in plague touch(or weaken armor but 3 second casting time is insane, it lasts 30 seconds, but if a target is alive after 10-15secs there's problems) sprint and res sig or sprint, SoH and restore life for W/Mo and go to town. If you do go sword W/N with plague touch you effectively cutdown the ways you can be stopped to one. And that's hexes, if you can get just one monk to bring smite hex though, then you can not only boost damage, but instead of having to worry about hex and condition removal the monk only needs worry about hex removal. You could throw in some hex removal but there's a big problem with spreading yourself too thin. We've already given up frenzy here, you can remove hexes, conditions, all day but someone has to attack.

Zeru · Jun 24, 2005, 11:52 PM // 23:52

A skill with a 30 second recharge to wipe out all conditions on a person is idiotic to have a monk when you can throw on mend condition+mend ailment and use them potentially every spell if really needed. And going war/monk for that is even more stupid, considering that the only two conditions which really hurt a warrior are blind, weakness, and cripple, and it's far easier to reapply them and keep them on when you're using a skill with 30 second recharge. When you say which one is good and put it bold the very least you could do is be right :-/

Remove hex has a pretty long cooldown compared to mend cond/ail, which is why convert hexes is useful for a specialty monk.

and btw going war monk so you can rid yourself of conditions...is just ugh. Go necro and bring plague touch and rend instead.

=HT=Ingram · Jun 25, 2005, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Warriors are in a bad light to most because of the Tanking aspect of them. he goes and charges headlong into a mess of enemies only to force the rest of the team to do NOTHING else but protect him... They are basically melee only and that close range type causes almost as much problems as pets do. they run into a fight, start getting the hell kicked out of them then run to where the monks and other protectors are bringing with them the entire enemy army... Many are trying to avoid warrior only battles anymore. its becoming more about how you play not how much you can tank. so that always pisses off the warrior class... Mesners and monks are still high demand... Rangers are also a class many do not want in Tomb. and I can understand why...

Creed · Jun 25, 2005, 02:15 AM // 02:15

As you see more and more spike damage builds. And more and more people building counter measures to these, you'll start to see the fall in defences vs. the old basic warrior builds.

Better still are the warriors who realize 'Hey no ones targeting me, because i'm a tank and they know better than to be that stupid..' Who start to fill up the skill bar with skills which make a person pay for not acknowledging him.

The truth is, the Fad awhile ago was warrior monks. So eeryone now knows a way or two to shut them down. And most carry atleast 1 skill of this kind with them. Warrior/monk the dying old fad dying out for Air ele's now was a huge mistake to begin with. Too reliant on enchantments. Most people are under an illusion a warrior needs more buffs than other classes to maintain it's effectivness, this simply is'nt true.

Why not try some Warrior/Necro builds and use some intelligence?

Use No necro attributes. Use Tactics / you chosen weapon stat / str./
Hell try anything this is simply an example.

The only necro skill needed is plague touch. What people fail to realize is that with Healing signet the warrior has the best and most reliable heal there is, very few people carry anti signet skills. And those who do dont generally try shut down a warrior with them. And there is no enchantment to strip/shatter, which is a weakness no warrior skill uses shouts/stances are what makes a warrior strong unstripable unshatterable self buffs.

Using plague touch a warrior can get rid of the 2 worst staus effects for him. Blind and weakness. Crippled too specially in tombs if you simply change target to a closer person and get it off.

Ok so there's always going to be a way to shut the character down, your job is to limit what can shut it down. And when the shutdowns are limited to 1.. maybe 2 things. You've made a good build.

Here's the biggest thing no one seems to think of in the Warrior/Monk builds. Warrior has got quite a fun things which shut it down, but it's the monk side which will let you down much more often, it's easier to disrupt monk skills than warrior skills. Fact. Simply compare the number of spells which can intterupt/remove or destroy etc. Healing signet vs. healing breeze. At the moment people simply dont use the full potential of the warrior instead looking towards the monk siude for healing etc.

To a further extent team work can be used to make warriors both safer and more usful, a mesmers shatter hex can destroy anything near a warrior sine if he charges in alone he will become the target of serious hexing. I've gone from my original ideas with this last paragraph but there's still alot of truth in all of what i've said.

CuteGuyNo.1 · Jun 25, 2005, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Don't just think of a W/Mo, think of W/Me which uses the fragility condition build, the damage adds up alot and the warrior can build up in its strength attribute, and lower thie sword/axe inorder for fragility best effect, with warrior cunning, thier buff to block and defense is gone, and worked well with a good team, get a ranger to add a burning conidion on him for better effect.

a example of this build with sword would be
server artery
gash
hamstring
warrior cunning
fragility
salvage slash
sprint
power spike

this build can interupt + do over time damage if they try to remove thier condition. this build can also work well with a mesmer teammate that uses epidemic, and this is just one of the build that havent been explored much. Warrior does stand a chance in PvP if people let them a chance to try, fail, and tweak.

Phades · Jun 25, 2005, 03:18 AM // 03:18

2 always have condition removal of some kind if you can atleast
3 always take offensive skills over defensive for hall unless your team needs res sig (For those dumb w/mo that bring gladiators defence). (red knight)

Kinda contradictory in a way, due to popular opinion here, stating that one of the few classes that can remove conditions shouldnt be used as a sub (see below). However, the jobs that can condition and hex spam, will far outweigh the warrior's mana pool and regen, if they desire to keep it going on the warrior. Id have to say that the most frustrating thing, next to blind, is having a warrior be chain hit with cripple, iron mist, prison of ice, blurred vision, ect.

Pure Strike, Seeking Blade, Savage Slash(or Hamstring), and Flourish for the win. 3 times in ~10 seconds isn't good enough? (spideyknight)

In my experience its not. Having 2 hits in 10 seconds with a 1h melee weapon does basically nothing. Having 10 seconds of hits in a row helps, but that is not enough to really put down any caster, especially a caster on the move. Also, seeking blade seems somewhat "buggy" for defenses that "block", in a similar way that wild blow was "buggy" prior to a recent patch. There are times when the enemy will still "evade" it as well and no bleeding condition is applied to their health. In addition, no warrior skill compensates for any effect that causes the warrior to "miss", which causes stacking defenses with "miss" chances and standard "block/evade" seems to nearly completely defeat the warrior counters to "block/evade".

and btw going war monk so you can rid yourself of conditions...is just ugh. Go necro and bring plague touch and rend instead. (zeru)

Be sure to write me sometime while you stand around with your.... Never mind im not gonna finish this flame, but i think you need to remind yourself that you arent always next to a target and it does nothing against hexes. Iron mist is much hate to any would be warrior. Yeah it cant be kept up forever, but it shuts you down just as much as any blind condition. With any coordination between snare users, you might as well just log out. Granted a good team should win, but as i said earlier, there is nothing more frustrating than being completely removed from a fight in any way, especially in a manner that prevents a warrior from doing a very simple thing like moving to a target. Not that wards, miss hexes, and simply moving from a warior is usually enough to keep his dps near zero.

Dhampyr D · Jun 25, 2005, 03:30 AM // 03:30

warriors have a bad reputation for being noobs and retards as mentioned earlier (they especially are if they dont have any form of cripple or speed boost)

there are good warriors out there that can easily out damage an air ele (W/E with mark of rodgort and conjure flame for example) or warriors that support their team (W/Mo with succor and life barrier) but they are extremely rare

(currently looking into a "fear me" build)

Rey Lentless · Jun 27, 2005, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Most of the warriors I see in pvp are relatively bad players with bad builds. I don't blame tombs pugs not going after them.

They don't make the transition from pve tank, to pvp dps/disabler.

They also don't counter what counters them if it's available in their secondary often.

They also don't spike correctly.

I'm glad they don't have a taunt in this game. Instead of relying on things like provoke or taunts, you have to position yourself and learn how to tank. I bitched about not having a provoke when I first got this game, but appreciate that I actually had to aquire some skill to tank correctly instead of just having a button/skill do it for me. That makes it a skill class, we should all enjoy that aspect, instead of having some boring warrior class that gets old after a few days of playing.

But teams can build for warriors in their group if they want. Martyr, rigor mortis, wild blow, and a plethora of damage enchancers are there for team builds. Most team builds aren't warrior based, but they certainly can be. It's like warriors can be countered when other classes can't. There's plenty of counters to the counters.

Ancalagon06 · Jun 27, 2005, 06:22 AM // 06:22

War/Monks have access to mend ailment, War/Necs have plague touch/signet/sending

A warrior's not supposed to go after warriors. Heh, warriors should know that a warrior is hard to kill with phyiscal damage.

Monks, though. Monks have soft and squishy insides made for pounding.

I actually don't use my warrior in PvP anymore. Axe warriors just aren't good at it (at least I have trouble finding a way), and I refuse to go find myself a sword for the express purpose of p0wning in tombs.

Klael · Jun 27, 2005, 07:59 AM // 07:59

I play a monk in tombs and warriors are the least of my concerns. Their normal attacks deal less than 10 to me and the occasional galrath slash deals around 30. However, those warriors that know what they are doing will pose a problem. Warriors have to make use of the fact that nobody will be hitting on them until the rest of the team is down. Whatever skills that you wish to bring along, just make sure that its part of the team build. Otherwise you're just a minor annoyance.

Phades · Jun 27, 2005, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Most of the warriors I see in pvp are relatively bad players with bad builds. I don't blame tombs pugs not going after them.

They don't make the transition from pve tank, to pvp dps/disabler.

They also don't counter what counters them if it's available in their secondary often.

They also don't spike correctly.

I'm glad they don't have a taunt in this game. Instead of relying on things like provoke or taunts, you have to position yourself and learn how to tank. I bitched about not having a provoke when I first got this game, but appreciate that I actually had to aquire some skill to tank correctly instead of just having a button/skill do it for me. That makes it a skill class, we should all enjoy that aspect, instead of having some boring warrior class that gets old after a few days of playing.

But teams can build for warriors in their group if they want. Martyr, rigor mortis, wild blow, and a plethora of damage enchancers are there for team builds. Most team builds aren't warrior based, but they certainly can be. It's like warriors can be countered when other classes can't. There's plenty of counters to the counters.

Warriors seem to be the only class that requires a team to be built around them for pvp, instead of having one to a few warriors enhancing the rest of the team setup. Think of this in the same way that a monk, ranger, or elementalist can enhance, opposed to require the rest of the team build to support their function.

drowningfish999 · Jun 27, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Warriors always require the most attention, and a bad warrior can usually drive your team off the edge. I think most people use warriors that they know can do a good job, usually a guild mate or something. There are too many warriors that will just suicide charge into a group, and too many that will hang back and do nothing.

For example, I was involved in a PUG with 1 warrior and 7 monks. Our plan was to have the warrior charge in, then we use Zealot's Fire and some puny healing spells to rip apart the enemy. The plan worked decently in the UW arena, but when we got to Burial Mounds, our warrior took like 10 seconds of "dancing" around before he actually charged forward, and even then he danced around before engaging. Needless to say this blew our whole strategy, and we ended up losing.

The Man · Jun 28, 2005, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Please, stop talking about the warriors ability to tank. IMO the targeting order goes like this:

Mesmer
Monks

After this depends on the opposing team, if they have a very good damage dealing warrior he would be the next target, but otherwise Eles followed by other casters would go here.

So, they dont get targeted until 3-5 (minimum) casters are down (mesmer(s), monks). Their ability to tank doesn't come in until it's too late.

Phades · Jun 28, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Man

Please, stop talking about the warriors ability to tank. IMO the targeting order goes like this:

Mesmer
Monks

After this depends on the opposing team, if they have a very good damage dealing warrior he would be the next target, but otherwise Eles followed by other casters would go here.

So, they dont get targeted until 3-5 (minimum) casters are down (mesmer(s), monks). Their ability to tank doesn't come in until it's too late.

Well rangers technically tank better, considering their armor also defends against elemental damage, in addition to stances vs phys and +al vs elemental damage and tend to last longer than warrior stances. So stating that warrios are good due to their tanking ability is beyond moot, since rangers can/do have the ability to mitigate all forms of damage (that can be reduced) more effectivly than warriors by far. The only job that could be argued that does it better would be monks, or rather a pair of monks, but enchantments can be removed, while stances generally only end with wild blow...

Tengoku No Yushosha · Jun 29, 2005, 03:32 AM // 03:32

I think Warriors are quite helpful. Lets say your have a spellcasting team (-Mesmers, monks, Pyromancers, Aeromancers, Hydromancers etc-) Against a team consisting of 3 monks (-2 healers and 1 protector-) 1 elementalist (-An Aeromancer-) 1 mesmer (-Thats an anti something-) 2 Warriors and 1 Ranger. Since Mages are so fragile and some don't have armor against certain elements, Warriors can take down targets called just as fast as any mage. You see, If a Warrior were hitting a monk, and the monk was running, giving the Warrior a chance to do critical hits. If a Warrior were hitting a non-moving target, the Warrior may not be able to get critical hits, but the Warrior is able to gain faster adreneline, being able to initiate more attacks and then be able to take down the target (-Of course, the rest of the team SHOULD be helping-) Many people just blurt out how the feel without even thinking of how the Warrior's potential is valuable.

Nash · Jun 29, 2005, 01:35 PM // 13:35

You don't run Warriors in Tomb because it has a lot of maps that hinder their effectiveness, with obstacles, small bridges, cliffs etc.

taion · Jun 29, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Yeah, PUGs often avoid warriors because most players behind warriors suck. Yes, warriors can be disabled, but so can everyone else, and the counters to warriors are being run less and less as the metagame progresses. We often run a warrior or two in our Tombs groups (unless we're running some specific focused/trick build) – adrenaline spikes are pretty damn nice. Basically, warriors rock, but paladins suck.

Phades · Jun 29, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by taion

Yeah, PUGs often avoid warriors because most players behind warriors suck. Yes, warriors can be disabled, but so can everyone else, and the counters to warriors are being run less and less as the metagame progresses. We often run a warrior or two in our Tombs groups (unless we're running some specific focused/trick build) – adrenaline spikes are pretty damn nice. Basically, warriors rock, but paladins suck.

The "paladin" style of warrior is one of the very few choices for condition and hex removal vital to actually be a warrior. It lacks enchantment removal and cramps the skill bar though.

Perhaps it could very easily be that most players dont "suck" but are average to above average and the job could just "suck" more than others. Other jobs require very specific jobs to "shut them down", while every job has means to shut a warrior down. Some even have means to shut groups of warrriors down. Then there is the issue of inconsistant melee combat due to movement and attack animations. The problem lies in the scaling of skill effectiveness tuned for a pve environment rather than a pvp environment, or perhaps a group pvp environment.

Epinephrine · Jun 29, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Perhaps it could very easily be that most players dont "suck" but are average to above average and the job could just "suck" more than others.

Hmm. Most players can't be above average, it wouldn't be an average then (well, it's possible with skewed distributions and such, but there is no evidence to suggest a skewed/non-normal distribution). I do suspect that overall warrior attract those who are looking for an easier character to pley, so you likely get an overall lower average ability there. Add that to the fact that warriors can play much more independently (especially Wa/Mo) and you set things up to not learn team-based play very well.

This is not to say that warriors have an easy job, or that there aren't incredibly talented warriors out there. There are great players playing warriors, and there are lousy players playing mesmers, and I think as a general rule if your build relies on teaminteraction you'll learn the skills faster - hence independent builds learn the least, as a general rule.

greenknight777 · Jun 29, 2005, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

it seems that Warrior damage output should be buffed a whole heckuva a lot seeing as they can't really kill anything without a ton of additional offensive assistance from their party

Warrior/Mesmer using Illusionary weaponry maxed at 15 can hit 40s a hit.

Downside = Enchantment stripping.