Curse

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Try nailing any non-intoxicated target with Earthquake and following it up with Aftershock...and you'll find out flaw #2 in the plan. Most knockdowns only last ~1 second. Gale, Backbreaker, and Knockdowns while using Stonefist Gauntlets are the only exceptions. When they take a half step backwards during the casting animation and another step back while you're recovering from aftercast, you will A) miss with aftershock entirely or B) not get the bonus damage because they've already gotten up.

Neither A nor B is true. It's C: Aftershock will hit them while getting up, and yes, you'll still get the double damage from after shock.

Like I said, forget the math. Forget all these crap and theorycrafting. Do you have any real experience? Try and do it. I have. Countless times. Guess what, aftershock hits for double damage against ppl recovering from earthquake.

Jul 13, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Malchiel I'm seriously considering requesting you get banned for trolling. First of all, it's not theorycrafting. These numbers were tested by non-alpha testers and alpha testers, and even verified to us by the devs since some of us have direct communication to them. It's obvious that you really dont know what you're talking about, and it's getting to the point where it seems you're just posting to muck up threads and being stupid on purpose.

ElderAtronach · Jul 13, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Eonwe... there were a lot better ways you could've handled that...

My opinion of [iQ] just dropped a few notches.

Disoblige · Jul 13, 2005, 07:55 PM // 19:55

awesome fast knockdown build for tournament.

Energizing wind
Quick Zipher
Earthquake
MaelStorm
Meteor Strom
Mark of rodgort
Fire Storm
Glyph of Energy {Elite}

attributes
fire:14
Wilderness:7
Beast:7
Energy:10

Spam them with Meteor storm , earthquake and malestorm. they recharge in 15-30 seconds. Energizing wind will reduce all your skills cost to 10 energy instead of 25. Think of the destruction!!!!

I been using this and I gotten in HoH hudreds of times. TOmbs players are too stupid or too busy to move from their area.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jul 13, 2005, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Malchiel I'm seriously considering requesting you get banned for trolling.

I may agree with what you and the other IQ folks have said in this thread but threatening to ban Malchiel because his opinions are different? Sorry but Eonwe has been far more rude and insulting than anyone in this thread so far. Name calling and insults dont make a discussion.

Eonwe · Jul 13, 2005, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidteardrop

"You're an idiot, but you're right." Good call.

I've already stated that wards are useful if cast next to the monk. That example was assuming you're not standing next to your monk.

Assuming all they're doing while standing on the dias is standing idle. If there are so many people on the dias, and you have no enchantments (as an elementalist primary), why aren't you being interrupted by the mesmers and rangers, knocked down by warriors, and taking an otherwise heavy beating? Granted I'd imagine some people would try to avoid being your next target by putting someone else in the way, but if there are so many people on the dias, I'd bet they're doing something other than sitting idle. So with your strategy you take one person out at a time, while the rest of them beat on you? What if they have a protective bond on? Four elementalists hitting twice each is eight hits. Why, that's only 40% of their life.

I'll start off by saying that no one runs prot bond in tombs, especially on multiple allies, and if they do, they'd better have some kind of way of getting all that energy back. People obviously will not be standing idle, good call there... but does that matter? No, it doesn't. Your aftershocks aren't going to be interrupted, but your earthquakes might. If that happens though.. you still have 3 or 4 guys that can cast it, so that isn't a problem. It seems to me like anything you come up with doesn't really pertain to what I'm trying to point out. If you do and earthquake+aftershock combo on the dias you do realize that just about everyone standing there will die, not just the person you've targeted with the earthquake. Sure, let them beat on me, because about 1-2 seconds they'll be dead

.

Quote:

See later in this post, about aftercast times. Actually, see the next line, since you already know.
Oh, so you already know? Then why did you go on needlessly in the rest of this paragraph? They're going to have plenty of time to run away. Almost two seconds. That's enough time to get away from aftershock, which has a tiny area of effect.

Umm... you do realize that you need only one of the elementalists to cast earthquake... and you do realize that he will have time to aftershock. Maybe you should test some of these things out before you post. Once again, they will not have time to run away, I have done it before.

Quote:

Pheonix has an area damage as well as an impact damage. That's two numbers. Aftershock has an initial damage and a secondary if they're knocked down. That's two numbers. I said nothing about earthquake. Use Gale to knock them down for all I care. That might work better, actually, because if you knock them down for three seconds you have enough time to cast Aftershock before they're standing up and mobile. Try that with earthquake against someone who's smart enough to take a few steps back.

Like I said before, you will have enough time to cast aftershock. I have no clue where you're getting the idea that you won't. Don't belive me? Go test it and shut up. Also... like I stated before... phoenix will not do near as much damage.

Quote:

Pyromancer and Drakescale armour are quite common. You'd be right if you said I was wrong because I assumed that statement. Because I did, and I admit that folley. However, I'll amend it to say that some people have fire resistance on their torso.

Most people wear aeromancer armor in tombs since people like to bring spike teams with air elementalists. Drakescale? Why the hell would you ever choose drakescale armor over druid's?

Quote:

Yeah, but Chain Lightning does, as do a few other spells you'd use to hit them with only lightning damage. I know it does no damage. But snaring them so they can't run out of your spell range, then doing an air spike... That sorta works, huh? Unless they cast Spell Breaker.

You never mentioned chain lightning in your original post champ.

Sarus · Jul 13, 2005, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

I may agree with what you and the other IQ folks have said in this thread but threatening to ban Malchiel because his opinions are different?

It's not that his opinions are different. It's that he is saying things which are blatantly wrong and confusing to people trying to read the forums to actually learn something. This is only not the first thread where he spreads disinformation.

Mind Wallaby · Jul 14, 2005, 03:01 AM // 03:01

There seem to be a lot of assumptions floating around, so I recorded myself casting an Earthquake->Aftershock->Crystal Wave chain against a couple of Jungle Trolls to resolve the timing.

You can view the video for yourself here. The file is about 1MB in size, and I'm hosting it on Geocities, so if anyone can suggest a better host I'd be glad to put it somewhere else.

I had my inventory open so you can see that I'm not using any items that reduce cast time.

If you analyze the video frame by frame, you should come to the same conclusions I did, reproduced below (first number is the frame #):

63 (0:00:02.100): Earthquake cast
164 (0:00:05.467): Earthquake strikes [Earthquake cast time: 3.367s]
184 (0:00:06.133): Visible animation for Aftershock begins [Earthquake aftercast = 0.666s)
208 (0:00:06.933): Aftershock strikes [Aftershock cast time: = 0.8s, total time elapsed since Earthquake struck: 1.466s]
225 (0:00:07.500): Trolls appear to finish recovering from knockdown; their stance is normal and they begin their attacking animation on the next frame [Knockdown duration: 2.033s]
261 (0:00:08.700): Visible animation for Crystal Wave begins [Aftershock aftercast = 1.767s]
285 (0:00:09.500): Crystal Wave strikes [Crystal Wave cast time: >= 0.8s]

My framerate dropped to 16-17 FPS during the fight, so these numbers have a margin of error of around 0.06 seconds.

My conclusions, rounding to the nearest 0.25s:
Earthquake aftercast: 0.75s
Earthquake knockdown period: 2s
Aftershock aftercast: 1.75s

Take from this what you will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

Anyone who stands adjacent to (arm's reach) of a geomancer for 3 seconds is asking to get clobbered. Congratulations, you've rediscovered another way to kill bad players. Glyph of Sacrifice doesn't affect this in any meaningful way- instead of a 3 second cast time, you have a 1.75s cast time (you still have to cast the glyph (1s cast) and deal with the Gylphs aftercast (.75s).

The practical difference is more than the numbers suggest, since you have up to about 4 seconds after casting the Glyph in which to run up to the target. In other words, provided your target is within 4 seconds reach (but not necessarily point blank), you can guarantee a touch-range Earthquake, which casting Earthquake by itself cannot do.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 14, 2005, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Can't we all just get along?

Not gonna take sides but I'm still going to say it since it seems everybody has forgotten.

Everything has a counter. Everything.

Want to reduce damage from Aftershock? We don't need Balanced Stance, it's the most useless skill in the game...

For a skill that has 5s. of cast time, if nobody interrupts it, you and your team deserves to get knocked on your asses. These spike builds are overrated. As is any other build that thinks its 'all that' cause 'i kills0rs your arze in 2 secs.'...

Why do people think killing is the only reason to play this game? It does happen in the end but there's always a trade off. Thank you ^_^

Tuna · Jul 14, 2005, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Try nailing any non-intoxicated target with Earthquake and following it up with Aftershock...and you'll find out flaw #2 in the plan.

I used to run a kd (shock,stoning,eq) + aftershock build in tombs/gvg, it works, but you have to be right next to them (melee weapon helps with this) and you can't dilly dally after you kd them.

Quote:

Most knockdowns only last ~1 second. Gale, Backbreaker, and Knockdowns while using Stonefist Gauntlets are the only exceptions. When they take a half step backwards during the casting animation and another step back while you're recovering from aftercast, you will A) miss with aftershock entirely or B) not get the bonus damage because they've already gotten up.

You hit for the extra aftershock dmg up untill the regain their 'normal' fightning posture. So you can hit them w/ aftershock after they've gotten up and get full damage, but don't count on that <.5s time slot

Quote:

During the casting, the first and second hit with stoning. At 12 earth magic, you've knock-locked the area for ~10 seconds and delivered 678 damage to the area (from earthquake and aftershock) with an additional 152 to a single target (from stoning). Have a hammer warrior use crushing blow on one target for an instant deep wound. Enjoy.

Only problem is that its uh... *highly* probably that the target will get reversaled + prot spirited at least once in that 10 sec time frame, which is the reason I don't run an earth ele any more. Damn prot monks are too good. NEEEERRRRFFF!

-100 -70 +70, gotta love it.

Makkert · Jul 14, 2005, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mind Wallaby

My conclusions, rounding to the nearest 0.25s:
Earthquake aftercast: 0.75s
Earthquake knockdown period: 2s
Aftershock aftercast: 1.75s

Take from this what you will.
.

i'm feeling pretty stupid here, but i simply don't know.
what exactly is meant with 'aftercast'? the cooldown time it takes for the skill to recharge?

Jul 14, 2005, 05:50 AM // 05:50

aftercast is the delay in time after most spells are casted. Example, if you cast a .25 second spell, there will be a .75 second delay b4 you can cast again which results in an actual 1 second cast time.

Tuna · Jul 14, 2005, 06:20 AM // 06:20

I always get a chuckle when people say they're gonna earthquake + aftershock + crystal wave to finish but don't realize that the aftercast will never allow them to get that crystal wave off in time. Better off brining stoning.

Mitsu Bishi · Jul 14, 2005, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Unless something knocks the enemy down again in the meantime or hinders him to run away.

Satire Elexus · Jul 14, 2005, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I always get a chuckle when people say they're gonna earthquake + aftershock + crystal wave to finish but don't realize that the aftercast will never allow them to get that crystal wave off in time. Better off brining stoning.

Not sure what you mean here. Crystal wave isn't supposed to be cast when the enemy is knocked down as it doesn't do any additional damage. Earthquake + aftershock = a nice 226 damage (before armour) followed by crystal wave for another 82 damage.

Total damage 308. You wouldn't be chuckling if you were on the receiving end of that.

Mitsu Bishi · Jul 14, 2005, 09:38 AM // 09:38

But the radius on Crystal Wave is not that large - so when they're up, they can move away easily (unless you have means to keep them in range). I guess that's what he meant.

And it's more than 308 because you should have earth over 12

Satire Elexus · Jul 14, 2005, 10:19 AM // 10:19

True. It can do more damage if it's over 12. I guess they could run away but they would have to be quick about it. I use it against warriors and they tend not to run away from me coz they think they can take me on.

Silent Butt Deadly · Jul 14, 2005, 12:04 PM // 12:04

I haven't seen it specifically mentioned here, but wouldn't the following 4 geo build be reasonably efficient in selecting one target & delivering enough knockdown & damage to take out the chosen target very quickly (it's an on paper idea but it feels right):

2 x W/E (Hammer 12+2 Earth 12)
1. Crushing Blow (Deep Wound on knocked down foe)
2. Heavy Blow (Melee knockdown if foe weakened)
3. Irresistable Blow (Melee knockdown if blocked)
4. [E] Backbreaker/Earthshaker/Devastating Hammer (Melee Knockdown)
5. Aftershock (Punch after knockdowns)
6. Obsidian Flame (For Finishing Low Health Foes)
7. Grasping Earth/Ward vs Foes (For keeping foes in reach of melee/AoE)
8. xxx

You could easily change one of the melee skills so each warrior won't double up on condition delivery & to spread adrenaline skills out a bit, and/or swap over slot 7 for Ward vs Melee or Elements too.

2 x E/? (Earth 12+2 Air 12+1)
1. Enervating Charge (Ranged Weakness on foe)
2. Stoning (Ranged knockdown if foe weakened & damage)
3. Lightning Orb/Chain Lightning (Ranged armor penetration spike damage)
4. [E] Obsidian Flesh (Self preservation if starting to take some heat vs spells - nice anti mesmer defence - not sure if it works against enchantment removals though-yet!)
5. Whirlwind/Aftershock/Earthquake (For Anti Melee repulsion)
6. Obsidian Flame (Cheap Armour bypass damage for finishing Warriors beating on you or for finishing low health foes)
7. Ward vs Melee (Increase Squishy caster lifespan whilst being bashed by melee)
8. xxx

Essentially these guys provide a constant ranged source of weakness, knockdown, damage on the target (to build the weakness/knockdown/damage synergies with the warriors) with some reasonably useful area defenses if they get charged by melee types.

It's a bit rough, but I figure just half a team like this ought to be enough to keep one target permanently weakened & on the deck taking a fairly obscene amount of damage before moving quickly to the next. The combination of both melee & spell should be diverse enough (hopefully) to ensure the target will basically be permanently Weakened, Knocked Down, Deep Wounded & Dead. Remember too that both warriors don't have to fire off their elite adrenaline knockdowns together on the same foe, & both elementals don't have to use enervating to get the weakness for 17 seconds odd, obsidian flame should only be used for finishing to preserve mana capacity, and if none of these guys actually get attacked then you won't need to use the defense skills given either (initially), & if you do start taking some heat, this should make the monks job alot easier to keep everyone alive.

Anyway, it looks decent on paper...but what do the experts say?

Mitsu Bishi · Jul 14, 2005, 12:10 PM // 12:10

It requires timing and won't be too easy to pull off so that everything strikes at the right time. It is quite a nice spike though and I have designed a very similar hammer warrior build for my guild as well (to power synergies with earth eles - the hammer knockdown is more efficient than earthquake). I don't think Obsidian Flame on the warriors makes sense though, they already have low energy, to deplete it further with exhaustion is dangerous. Also I would move the Earth-Eles closer to the opponent to add to the spike with Aftershocks of their own (and maybe a Crystal Wave).

Silent Butt Deadly · Jul 14, 2005, 12:23 PM // 12:23

I see your point on the W/E use of Obsidian Flame. I was thinking it was a cheap fast ranged cast for high damage at crucial points & the fact they only have a couple of 10 energy spells might mean they could live with one cast each. I think once you get into the realm of 15 energy cost spells for Warrior primaries though they're going to have to get into micro managing energy. Crystal Wave just feels too negative for the condition spam I am thinking of...although it might be workable if there is a steady flow of spam...maybe. Perhaps Stoning may be a viable alternative for the warriors.

Yes, I wasn't very clear about the actual tactics. I was thinking of using the modern warfare approach of using the eles to suppress the target whilst the warriors moved in for the intial assault, then the eles can move in as artillery/fire support, then rinse and repeat for next target.