Curse

ZING · Jul 15, 2005, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lanilifar

I am sorry. I did not realize you were saying you wanted warriors to have better condition and hex removal than everyone else. My fault totally here.

U're more then welcome to go through each class and check out the MUCH BETTER condition removers they have available that are tailored to them (which you did not list).

Calimar · Jul 15, 2005, 07:23 AM // 07:23

.... I might be stupid but you're all trying to make the warrior a class that works standalone. It's not designed to do so - this is not diablo or everquest or whatever. In GW, the warrior is a mission-oriented class. Not the tank. Tanks are useless when they can't block access to the lighter troops.
The warrior must be supported: he's supposed to be there and be the constant annoyance - no one will target him/her first because he's tough, and he'll deal damage and annoyance on a continuos basis. Crippling conditions are there, sure thing, but unless you play lots of random arenas... you're gonna be helped by your monk. How much do they impact you?
You should reason as squads. This game is balanced for squads, not single units. You want to reason on soloplay, you're probably finding lots of balance problems, but you're missing the point.

Oh and the point about any class should be complete on its own is pure narrowmindedness - this is, again, not everquest or ultima or what have you: in this game you have 2 classes. A primary and a secondary. If you don't want to use your secondary, you're missing chances to be more powerful. If you take this decision, you are CHOOSING your own weaknesses. Deal with it.

My opinion.

lanilifar · Jul 15, 2005, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

I could try and refute this skill by skill, but why do that? Check the recharge times for 3/4 of what you just listed.

At this point I am just posting to hear myself type.
Inspired Hex - 20 seconds
Hex Breaker - 5 second recharge
Comtemplation of Purity - 5 sec recharge
Purge Conditions - 30 second recharge
Remove Hex - 7 second recharge
Antidote Signet - 8 second recharge
Nature's Renewal - 60 second recharge
Plague Touch - 0 seconds

Quote:

U're more then welcome to go through each class and check out the MUCH BETTER condition removers they have available that are tailored to them (which you did not list).

I eagerly await your post so I may learn what skills you are talking about. Please list these MUCH BETTER condition removers.

Nightwish · Jul 15, 2005, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Im going to post my on-the-fence opinion here:

If Im seeing this right, some of us here points out that warriors are not useless but they are more disposable/replacable than other jobs. Added to that, the counters against them are relatively more effective.

Now, for my other perspective:

As many as there are antiwarrior counters out there, a skill bar can only fit 8 skills. Warriors out there might feel disheartened if they keep getting countered badly in a pvp round. But keep in mind that, those anti warrior counters will do crap if the opponents happen to be non-warriors.

One of the reason warriors seem to find themselves to be countered every so often is because of the popularity of this class, which makes opponents take the chance of packing at least one in the skill bar.

Scaphism · Jul 15, 2005, 07:50 AM // 07:50

I'm hardly amazed at the progression(degeneration of this thread) but it's my sincere hope that anyone still reading this will actually learn something, instead of listening to the ignorant, vocal minority who hope their volume will convince people to listen. For those of you still with us...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zing

It's hardly just a gripe. Almost every skill is somehow tied to an attribute. -- The higher the attribute the more effective the skill.
If a Warrior HAS to (out of sheer survival necessity) dump points into his secondary attributes, while every other class doesn’t have to do that, it's not balanced.

What does attribute level have to do with this discussion at all? As lanilifar has gone to the effort of providing us with actual data about hex and condition removal, let's pay attention. None of those skills require any attribute investment in order to remove hexes or conditions. None. Increasing the relevant attribute (if there is one) improves the side benefit, not the effectiveness of the removal (e.g. more energy from inspired hex, longer duration on hex breaker)

The real limit to a warrior's ability to self-medicate is his energy pool. If you're going to whine that warriors are unable to remove conditions on themselves repeatedly, at least start there. You'd still be wrong about it being "unfair", because the warrior's energy pool is balanced (or pretty close at least) but at least you'd hit on one of the real limits. Of course, as Pharalon has said, if you want to keep your DPS up, you should focus on filling your role while letting the removal specialsts do theirs. Or don't you trust your monks to bring removal with them?

So why (out of sheer survival necessity, to borrow your hyperbole) are you putting attribute points into your secondary?
Answer: You shouldn't be, if what you're looking for is hex and condition removal. Otherwise you're wasting points.

And the more you insist that warriors don't have skills in their own primary profession to deal with hexes and conditions, the more you entrench yourself. You're talking out of both sides of your face when you claim you don't want to be self sufficient but whine when warrior skill lists don't have adequate removal. Did you want to explain why you should be taken seriously when you can't decide which point you'd like to complain about?

And in the future, please bring facts to the table instead of generalizations like "W/E with aftershock is the best way to do damage". Without facts to analyze, there's little to discuss, which is why these posts degenerate into flames so easily.

*Edit*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightwish

One of the reason warriors seem to find themselves to be countered every so often is because of the popularity of this class, which makes opponents take the chance of packing at least one in the skill bar.

You've hit upon one of the key points. Warriors are a popular class to play, and it's almost always worthwhile to bring along some form of warrior hate. Consequently, you should bring counters to that hate if your team uses warriors.

ZING · Jul 15, 2005, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lanilifar

I eagerly await your post so I may learn what skills you are talking about. Please list these MUCH BETTER condition removers.

I'm getting WAY off track from my point. In the interest of not spending 6 hrs on this, off the top of my head I know of:
Plague Signet
Plague Sending *EDIT* Orginally said Touching
Nature's Renewal is far more potent as a lvl 8 spirit and lasting 120+ seconds
Melandru's Resilience is pretty potent at 18 seconds of +2 health and +1 energy for each hex and enchantment.

And keep in mind I'm not saying there's NOTHING for a Warrior. Plague Touch is pretty good, as well as Antidote Signet.

But in the interest of not caring anymore, I'll just say this: The Warrior is fine, he has to be. Just look at how any non Hammer W/E with Knockdown and Aftershock are getting into groups right now. And hey surely the equal use of the sword in PvP is proof that it is just as competent as an Axe or Hammer.

I'm obviously wrong in thinking that after almost 6 months of tinkering and failure that my W.R with a sword can be one-upped by virtually every other class/weapon combo out there.

I'm obviously wrong, and this game is nothing but perfect balance and harmony.

Schorny · Jul 15, 2005, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

Plague Signet
Plague Touching
Nature's Renewal is far more potent as a lvl 8 spirit and lasting 120+ seconds
Melandru's Resilience is pretty potent at 18 seconds of +2 health and +1 energy for each hex and enchantment.

That is necro and ranger. What about mesmer and ele?
And Nature's Renewal doesn't heal conditions...
Melandru's Resilience and Plague Signet are elite.
Plague touch needs you standing next to someone

Please do your homework - noone can take you serious after this post...

ZING · Jul 15, 2005, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Un-freaking-believable.
I’m going to need some of you to come down from ‘ur t3h l33t’ perches for just a second.
Despite the overabundant evidence EVERYDAY you log into the Tombs people still live in this "I know every skill and every counter skill, and its all balance baby."

Why don't you formulate a number that explains to average Joe, who paid the same money you did to play this game, why they can't play in a decent PUG because their class of choice is a Warrior? Why don't you explain why every second call is for a caster in the Tombs? And then why don't you explain how it's fair that average Joe who likes to nuke people gets enjoyment out of his money while you sit and stew in the corner because you can't spend 16 hrs a day learning every skill, and counter skill, just so you can have a hope of being effective.

Oh yeah -- lots of balance…to anyone spending inordinate amounts of time playing the game.

I love geek-dome in all its elitist glory. Do you people actually log into the game and READ the calls in the Tombs. There are many nice (read non n00b) human beings absolutely screwed over by the learning curve for Warriors in the tombs.

lanilifar · Jul 15, 2005, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

I'm getting WAY off track from my point. In the interest of not spending 6 hrs on this, off the top of my head I know of:
Plague Signet
Plague Touching
Nature's Renewal is far more potent as a lvl 8 spirit and lasting 120+ seconds
Melandru's Resilience is pretty potent at 18 seconds of +2 health and +1 energy for each hex and enchantment.

Plague Signet is indeed great for removing conditions. It has a much longer casting time than Plague Touch, 20 second recharge compared to Plague Touch's 0, and it takes up your Elite slot. I don't see how this qualifies as MUCH BETTER. Sure it removes all conditions, but the cost is just to high unless you are building around it. I can't imagine any necro throwing this into their build for condition removal only.

Plague Touching (by which I imagine you mean Plague Touch) is one of the spells I listed. If you instead meant Plague Sending, I can't see how that is better at all. It takes longer to cast and requires 10% life sacrifice (while the range component is nice, it is mostly moot as we are looking at warriors, and the bonus of potential multiple enemies being affected is nice, but you are just looking for efficiency in condition removal, Plague Touch crushes this skill hands down).

Nature's Renewal removes Hexes exactly the same whether it is level 1 or level 8. It is no more potent for the effect you are desiring with high Wilderness Survival. This is a skill I listed as well.

Melandru's Resilience. 25 second reacharge, uses Elite Slot. Decent looking skill, but the Elite thing crushes it. May see more play when the game cycles into heavy mesmer and Curse based Necros. It should be noted that Melandru's does not remove any hexes or conditions.

You listed 2 skills (maybe 3 if you meant Plague Sending) that I did not. Neither of which are clearly MUCH BETTER, even though they are both Elite skills.

Quote:

Why don't you formulate a number that explains to average Joe, who paid the same money you did to play this game, why they can't play in a decent PUG because their class of choice is a Warrior? Why don't you explain why every second call is for a caster in the Tombs?

My formula for this is as follows:
More people play warriors than other classes. This means instead of 1/6th of the population being warriors it is something more than that. This means those groups who want warriors have an easier time of finding one. Four of the Six classes are casters. If people were to call for members of all classes evenly, two out of every three calls would be for a caster (which is more than every second call). However, monks are pretty darn vital, and probably make up at least 3/8ths of many teams which actually places the demand for casters even higher. On top of all this, is the unfortunately high percentage of warriors who feel prone to believe they do not need the team to survive (often due to the differences between PvE and PvP) which has made an equally unfortunate high percentage of people want to avoid warriors in general. As time progresses and more warriors learn how to play PvP well, I believe this last effect will diminish. As time progresses and more people have unlocked all the classes, it will also be easier to fill any of the classes wanted in a party, which will make the first condition I listed also diminish.

Quote:

And hey surely the equal use of the sword in PvP is proof that it is just as competent as an Axe or Hammer.

I am not qualified to discuss this point. I do believe that if there is a problem where the weapons are imbalanced, then it will be addressed in due time.

PieXags · Jul 15, 2005, 10:20 AM // 10:20

I'm not going to read all the posts here because most of them are off-topic and absolute crap arguing anyway so I'll just say what I have to say about PvP.

The battles are too small, nobody cares that 16 people want to fight in a guild hall...big deal, the battles are over before they start, whichever side has the better build will win, plain and simple, every time I've lost a match in PvP has been because our "build" couldn't counter theirs, it's all about the build, there are no "tactics" involved, no adaptation in the midst of battle, you've got your skill set, it will either work or your dead. No "skill" once you actually get into battle. The PvP makes no sense, why are we fighting anyway? Because we want to see our rank go up? That's the only motivation there is? Sorry, I need something more than that. Bigger battles of like 20vs20 30vs30 or more, that would be fun. I don't care about "blue team wins", I want a massive battle where I can adjust to my surroundings and others actions while fighting and actually have it depend on skill, not my build that I set up before the match. I don't care about winning, I care about having fun and being immersed in an actual battle...not some cruddy 5 minute skirmish.

Kashrlyyk · Jul 15, 2005, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

I'm not going to read all the posts here because most of them are off-topic and absolute crap arguing anyway so I'll just say what I have to say about PvP.

The battles are too small, nobody cares that 16 people want to fight in a guild hall...big deal, the battles are over before they start, whichever side has the better build will win, plain and simple, every time I've lost a match in PvP has been because our "build" couldn't counter theirs, it's all about the build, there are no "tactics" involved, no adaptation in the midst of battle, you've got your skill set, it will either work or your dead. No "skill" once you actually get into battle. The PvP makes no sense, why are we fighting anyway? Because we want to see our rank go up? That's the only motivation there is? Sorry, I need something more than that. Bigger battles of like 20vs20 30vs30 or more, that would be fun. I don't care about "blue team wins", I want a massive battle where I can adjust to my surroundings and others actions while fighting and actually have it depend on skill, not my build that I set up before the match. I don't care about winning, I care about having fun and being immersed in an actual battle...not some cruddy 5 minute skirmish.

Exactly my thoughts!

Maybe someone should test, what is more important tactic or teambuild? You would need to guild and at least 2 different team builds, which both guilds have! Team build 1 of guild A is equal to team build 3 of guild B and TB 2 is equal to TB4! Equal means same armor, weapon, attribute and skill selection! Weapon would be kind of though to achieve!

Now, TB1 fights TB 2! What guild wins?
Then TB 4 fights TB3! Does the same guild win? Then it seems to be more about team build than tactic!
That could help figuring that problem out!

Schorny · Jul 15, 2005, 10:57 AM // 10:57

If it is so unbalanced, why can random groups win HoH? Their build can be no mean be better than a build from a good guild.

Or do we just whine because we never win?

Strategy is not about "having all possibilities everytime" but to handle the battle with what you got. It wouldn't be very interesting if you all could change your skills within seconds.

Because no build will work anymore. Everyone will change constantly builds. So the one that can change quicker wins.

If it is really that unbalanced, how can it be that we beat one build easily and then the same build, but played by someone else will beat us in no time? Can you explain this to me?

And why is not a draw if 2 teams run the same build??

btw: to create you teambuild IS tactic.

Of course the build is vital. An all air spike/anti caster build can't stand a chance against a warrior/anti-caster build. That is why you don't run pure builds and always have some strategy and possibilities left when your build is countered.

That is TACTIC.

Kriegar · Jul 15, 2005, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

I don't suppose you have every played a warrior, have you?

If those other classes have to remove condition offa you all the time they'll be running out of energy very quickly, which can be better used to save... uh their own life for one thing (since you are rarely in any real danger, well unless all your teammates are all dead =_=).

Have you been doing pvp in Ascalon Arena only?

Phades · Jul 15, 2005, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

btw: to create you teambuild IS tactic.

Of course the build is vital. An all air spike/anti caster build can't stand a chance against a warrior/anti-caster build. That is why you don't run pure builds and always have some strategy and possibilities left when your build is countered.

That is TACTIC.

Actually that is strategy, tactics would be adapting the strategy to fit the goal requirements in a changing environment. Simply stated tactics happen on the battlefield, strategy occurs off the battlefield. Team builds occur off the battlefield. Always made me twich a little when i saw "real time strategy game" opposed to a tactical game.

Thom · Jul 15, 2005, 01:16 PM // 13:16

If you never use any tactics, it is no wonder you don't like the game much. Tactical smarts give you the edge. Squad level tactical battles are a classic style of strategy game(8-12 member teams). 8v8v8v8v8v8 (8^6) can get extemely hectic if 4 teams engage in the same area. The numbers are currently managable and a good build really isn't enough.

PieXags · Jul 15, 2005, 01:31 PM // 13:31

The basis of "tactics" in this game's PvP right now are clicking 1, 2, 3, etc, all the way to 8 in the right combination. Big deal. You know it's a bad PvP system when one of the hardest BUILDS to beat is something like mass spirit spamming...if people can win by spamming something that...sucks.

Oh there is a way to beat such things...but it requires a different BUILD, all of which happens before the actual battle. Sure there are very subtle mostly senseless little changes that happen on the battle field, like "oh now blue team came over too" but then it's just more buildvsbuildvsbuild, instead of just buildvsbuild, and then it's the same old "alright, they'll kill eachother, then we'll do...what we always do". There isn't really a "Alright you do this I'll counter with this, while I then switch and react to what's going on behind me" It's "damnit I can't beat the build I'm hexed all to hell...I guess I'll try again next time I get here."

I've never lost a battle because their mid battle TACTICS were better than mine, always because we couldn't beat their BUILD with what we were using, simple as that. And since you have to wait for "countdown timer, blue team wins, repeat" over and over you can't really go out, switch skills and adapt, and then go in. And it's basically one team of 8 can't really pull of 2-3 builds all at once, so if you had two teams of like 20 you COULD pull this off, and that would require a lot more adaptation and teamwork than the current "build vs build" "build vs counterbuild = defeat" sort of thing.

Try and tell me that two teams of 20 going at it wouldn't be more interesting than what we have going right now, and say that the battle NEVER ended, that it actually kept going and you could then change your skill set if you died or something. That would be nice, not to mention immersive which would I've had to say dramatically increase the amount of people eager to PvP.

Black Raine · Jul 15, 2005, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Teams that large would be plain stupid. Imagine how fast any character would drop to almost any team. A group of elementalists will just spam AoE like chain lightning. Things like protective Spirit become irrelevant because they'll be taking 20 hits at least which will also hit others. You're monks are going to have to be fricking gods.

The larger the teams get, the less tactical it will become. Do you really want to *attempt* to coordinate 20 people? "Okay split up and flank! What's that? No monk in your group? No I said this half of you here!"

It's true that with 20 people you have a lot more flexibility but all of that will become irrelevant. There will just be *too* much damage flying around for anyone to handle. And people already complain about air ele spike groups.... let's triple the number of air eles!!!

With 480 HP, even 3 monks is overkill sometimes. Let's increase the opponents damage output, so logically we should increase our healing output. Let's say... the first wave of attacks somehow will leave one char standing with 10 HP, all the monks (like 5 or so) heal that one target which is a complete waste. They will heal... using only an orison of healing.. with level 12 healing and divine favor... 98 HP. The 5 take him immediately back to full health. I guess the only spell that monks will need is orison and good reaction times. This won't happen ever though. Let's consider a full team of 20 smite monks. They run in and cast balthazar's aura on themselves. That's 20x22dps = 440 dps. Your monks will need to heal fricking 440dps!!

What happens when 10 targets take some heavy damage? Will all 5 monks suddenly know how to divy up the healing? Or will they all heal the same target and let the other 9 die?

Health, energy, skills, everything would have to be changed in order for this to work.

If they truly did want 20v20 battles not only would the PvP change, the PvE would have to. For PvP you will need spells that give you +80 armor. How does the stupid mob of minotaurs kill you now when your party of 6 no matter who they hit, take 0 dmg? Unless you want to make PvE battles 20v20 too.

Sir Blade · Jul 15, 2005, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Spike groups suck nowadays, way too many counters. Mantra of Lightning, Protective Spirit, Try spiking when you have a mesmer or a hammer warrior on your ass. Or face a spirit team and get killed by quickening zephyr and natures renewal(being dropped every 20 seconds). GG spikers

Insanity · Jul 15, 2005, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

The battles are too small, nobody cares that 16 people want to fight in a guild hall...big deal, the battles are over before they start, whichever side has the better build will win, plain and simple, every time I've lost a match in PvP has been because our "build" couldn't counter theirs, it's all about the build, there are no "tactics" involved, no adaptation in the midst of battle, you've got your skill set, it will either work or your dead. No "skill" once you actually get into battle.

I can assure you that there are tactics utilized both in HoH and GvG that are more than just "build vs. build".

The biggest tactics involve movement and fire coordination, which can make all the difference in the world. A good coordinated team can take down a "better" build quite easily.

Example:

Our guild was running a GvG match vs. a "superior build". They were running heavy Wardsvs.Melee and we had a primary melee based build with a little bit of ranged backup. We quickly recognized that fighting them after they had Wards set up was a guaranteed loss... so, we started using tactics and movement to force them to a) move out of their wards and b) engage us in a running battle.

Quick feints towards their Guild Lord from opposite sides of the map forced them to keep moving away from the Tower towards their Guild Lord. Our warriors would quickly engage their casters til wards went up, then disengage and head towards their Guild Lord and NPCs. Eventually, we had -tactically- forced them back into their base BECAUSE they were relying on static defenses and we were using movement and tactics to deny them their defenses. We kept pressing and held the Tower while keeping them in their base due to their reliance on their Wards. Once we had them pushed back to their NPCs, we continued swapping targets outside of their Warded areas and killing unprotected individuals. Eventually, we won... despite having a heavy melee team vs. a anti-melee Ward build.

We recognized that our build was outclassed -IF- we played the game that our opponents expected. The moment you change combat behavior, their build may break... and that's what you're doing. Finding the hole in their build.

That's tactics. That's what's fun about guild wars.

Insanity

Zelc · Jul 15, 2005, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Warriors suck, eh? Tell that to War Machine.

Quote:

Update:
As many of you know, the number one Korean Guild, War Machine (War), was here at E3 to take on challengers from all over the world. They were taking matches two times a day for the last two days, and today's last challenge was with the number one ranked guild on the Official Guild Ladder, Negative Zero (n0). We taped the whole match, and that should be going up later, but here we are going to detail the match a little bit.

This match was the last one of the day for War Machine, but it was the best match of the day. War started out with a win in their first match, so they were pretty pumped-up for this match, which was hyped up the whole day. The War team are very aggressive team. They went right for the Flag Stand to capture the flag for the morale boost. n0 headed to the flag stand to head off War, but it didn't work all too well.

n0 held them off for a little while, but War was just too aggressive for them, and War captured the flag after a little skirmish near the stand. War then pushed on to n0's base and took the battle to them. War took out n0's NPC archers and healers around the Guild Lord pretty easily, and after a short skirmish, killed n0's Guild Lord, winning the battle for War.

I was watching the fingers of some of the War players, and I cannot believe how well they knew their moves and how well they knew the combos and ways to use their skills. They flew over the keyboards and took down targets very easily. War was using a "build up" strategy where they would build up the adrenaline on non-specific targets, then call one target and release all their built up adrenaline they had, quickly taking down the called target. What's interesting is that War doesn't even use TeamSpeak or any other chat type system. They know eachother so well that they dont even need voice chat to accomplish their goal. What's even more amazing about not using a chat program is that two of the War team were unable to make the trip, and were back in Korea playing with their guildies.

All in all, War proved today that they are one of the best, if not the best, guild in the world. Taking on n0 and winning is not an easy match, but they pulled it off. n0 in now way took it easy on War, and that is what made it such an amazing match. War Machine put on a great show, and being there to see it first-hand is almost indescribable. Congratulations to War Machine on winning their matches today and yesterday, and to all who challenged War, nice try, but this guild really knows what they are doing