Curse

Nexx · Jul 14, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

The reason I ask is to see if the hype (of spike teams and spirit spamming) is really there at the higher competitive level. Most of us (including myself) aren't good enough or rather don't spend enough time to get very good in organized PvP to provide useful information. It's kinda like, we're down here complaining about this and that but when at the top, things are totally different.

For example, I'm an old-school Starcraft BW player and for years many thought Terran was a terrible race to play in competitive starcraft. The learning curve for Terran was steep and if you made any mistake, you were dead. New players always complained about how "weak" terran was but as more people got better and began to realize how good Terran was... all the complaints stopped. In Korea (yes, they still play that game there) Terran is a powerhouse race along side Zerg.

EDIT: My bad. I forgot that numerous fixes were released once BW came out that improved many of the short coming of each of the races. The balance gap was widely criticized by even "top" players at that time. Eventually small changes were made that eventually paved the way to what it is today.

I think the very fact that top players publicly spoke their opinions and top games were regularly reported exposed the major drawbacks of the game early in its life. People were doing battle reports of numerous battles (that were all available to the public) and having open discussion about new tactics that could be used to improve the matchups. The way I see it now, information is kept secret. The flow of tactics is limited and rarely channeled to the public. I've seen numerous posts asking how to stop this and stop that and most of the replied posts were along the line of this: "Use X spell. If you can't do it, you suck." Or... "OMG. close this thread. You don't know anything noob. Stop complaining". Not exactly useful responses, huh?

I think that for any community to improve the veterans should set better examples instead of shooting down topics (no matter how irrelevant they may be) before they even get started. I know, I'm quite the believer.

quanzong · Jul 14, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Yeah I agree, casters cheat, they goto unworthy, nuke the element in the middle, WOW i got 10% morale, sure toke a lot of skill to do that! Knockdown warriors are joke too, just get yourself a skill that doesnt make you fall down LOL, that'd make knockdown obsolete. But casters, all they have to do is wait for another party to fight them and nuke area. But those Necromancers in HoH there terrible, able to summon 100 bone fiends, so unfar, its like fighting 10groups of ice imps all at once lol. Now a warrior with knockdown is to be feared? I'd say necro running with 100 bone fiends should be feared.

Black Raine · Jul 14, 2005, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

Still it persists with the 'fairness'
If you have to use a sentence that contains ANY talk of a secondary class to SAVE the Warrior's azz from someone else's primary you're admitting there's an imbalance. Because the Warrior is the ONLY class that can't do something about every other class WITH HIS PRIMARY SKILLS.

If someone can show me a SINGLE Warrior build that doesn't force the Warrior to depend on his Secondary class to save him I'll finally shut up. Because I can go to every single other class and say "use this primary skill and warrior x is useless."

The secondary skills are crutches to warriors, not compliments. Every other class invests in secondary attributes as a means to make them better weapons. The warrior does it so his casters don't have to spend every second keeping him out of a daze.

Zing you are 100% correct about warriors. They are easily shut down by conditions and have no effecient way in their primary attribute line up to deal with them.

Then let's look at this point from another point of view. What happens if an elementalist gets dazed? They then either have to rely on their secondary profession or a monk. If they get backfired, they can't cast any spells for 10 seconds. There are ways to render every single class useless, not only the warrior.

A mesmer can completely shut down a monk with either diversion (which I feel is the one and only overpowered skill in the game XD) black out, backfire, migraine, arcane conundrum, etc.

You are correct that warriors can be shut down easily, but so can every other class. Warriors aren't the only ones that rely on others to save them and the only ones with very simple counters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

*snicker* Eles can counter degens quite well thank you

may be not other condition, but about the only condition ele is really susceptible too is daze.

What you want to blind an ele? Cripple them? It's not like they need to go melee on you.

There's only a few conditions that specifically handicap warriors such as blind and weakness. There are many hexes and such that specifically handicap them but same for Elementalists. Elementalists have daze. Elementalists are still very susceptible to hexes. Backfire doesn't hurt warriors. Neither does arcane conundrum, or migraine.

The people who say warriors suck, you should pretty much say every class sucks. There's a way to counter warriors and make them rely on others or their secondary profession and there's a way to counter casters as well and force them to do the same.

Glasswalker · Jul 14, 2005, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexx

Or... "OMG. close this thread. You don't know anything noob. Stop complaining". Not exactly useful responses, huh?

Now there is a point we can definitely agree on. If one doesn't like a thread, don't respond to it. It vanishes into obscurity if it isn't kept open. And wasting a few bytes? As someone in the IT industry, I know how cheap the space is.

Now, as a longtime Zergling (my all-time favorite game) -- %90 percent of the improvements were related to bugs and Battle.net matching fixes rather than balance tweeks. Those that were balance issues, the devs complained were because of no true open beta.

At this point in Guild Wars life, I think it would take a true exploit before they will shift the balance in any direction; given the fact that it has been open to the public for what, almost a year now? Mess with spirits, and PvE is screwed for Rangers. And I don't mean just PC Rangers, but all those Bosses across Tyria. The game gets too easy for the rest of us.

But if we as a community show Spirit Spammers that we know the trick and we will beat them after a long crappy battle, we will see less of them and PvE will be just fine. How many battles would you lose after half an hour of wasted effort before you switched tactics? That is the question that they will be faced with soon enough.

sino-soviet · Jul 14, 2005, 10:26 PM // 22:26

The only condition that will shut down a caster is dazed, and thats rather hard to inflict and only two skills have that potential. Warriors on the other hand, can effortlessly be inflicted with blindness and weakness. I don't think the current metagame is particularly unbalanced, but there is my 2 cents.

Scaphism · Jul 14, 2005, 10:54 PM // 22:54

The gripe in this thread is that warriors don't have the skills in their primary list to deal with the conditions. While true, it's nothing more than an observation. It doesn't tell us anything about the game or why the mechanics should be altered. Zing's claim is that warriors are the only class that suffers as a result of having to rely on their secondary, and he's wrong. That's not an argument, it's a gripe, and shouldn't be taken seriously til he shows that hex and condition removal aren't sufficient to counter the hexes and condtions that exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sino-soviet

Warriors on the other hand, can effortlessly be inflicted with blindness and weakness.

Blindness is not an easy condition to inflict. Rangers and elementalists are the only ones who can do it, and it's usually costly. I'm just going to list what I see as the cost for these skills.

Throw Dirt- long (45s) recharge, touch range
Dust Trap- 25 energy, 20s recharge, easily interrupted
Eruption- 3s cast time, 25 energy, takes 8 seconds from time it's cast to go into effect.
Blinding Flash- 15 Energy, single target blind
Glimmering Mark- Elite, energy hungry, easily removed hex.

There are 5 ways to inflict blindness that I came up with. The cheapest to use is Throw Dirt, but it's available to primary rangers only (linked to expertise) and is touch range- few rangers want to be at touch range. The rest are costly, and Blindness is easily removed by incredibly efficient condition removal. If your team doesn't have reliable condition removal you're not planning very well for the people you're likely to fight.

Weakness is pretty easy to spread around, and it's a very effective way to neuter a warrior. The counter, however, is the same as it is for blind.

What is it about hex and condition removal that has you agitated? I've been playing a monk since the beta events and I've never had a problem with the available hex and condition removal. Enchantments have always been the bigger problem in my eyes, but the proliferation (and subsequent threat) of Nature's Renewal has definitely curbed the power of enchantment-heavy builds.

arredondo · Jul 15, 2005, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Hmmm, Mesmers are Blind inflicters as well. They have Ineptitude and Signet of Midnight (which can be Plague Touched to another if you are a Me/Ne).

Let's say I had four Warriors against only my MeNe, trying their best to slash me to pieces (My stats are FC 7, Ill 12, Insp 16). I could Blind all of them for 15 seconds each with a Signet of Midnight and Epidemic cast combo. I'd have Distortion and Illusion of Weakness (202 health at L12) on so they can't make much of a dent on my health as I cast. Regain 145 health with Ether Feast as needed.

While they build up Adrenaline with their swings, I cast Sympathetic Visage as a 18 second AoE Enchant that makes all warriors lose all adrenaline and 3E each everytime only one manages to touch me through the Distortion spam and Sig of Midnight casts. I'd round it out with Channeling for energy gain. Archane Echo the SV enchant to keep it on indefinitely.

Unless they have Enchant/Condition removals, I could probably last forever vs. four Axe wielders who REALLY need Adrenaline to maximize their abilities (Hammer-peeps need it too). The Sword attackers all lose 3E each attack that connects with the SV enchant, so that won't help them long either (especially with steady Ether Feast casts).

Not a likely scenario, and no point is being made.... just kinda funny to me how many tricks work on Warriors. Ahhh, good times.

Back on topic about Blinds, Mesmers also have Black Out which is a more potent "Blind" in that it stops spells too and can't be cured, but lasts less in its effect (plus it isn't an elite).

Kriegar · Jul 15, 2005, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

Understatement of the year

This thread is ridiculous, I feel like I'm reading something on Guild Hall.

The amount of sheer idiocy in this thread has surpassed my wildest expectations. Kudos to all!

ZING · Jul 15, 2005, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

The gripe in this thread is that warriors don't have the skills in their primary list to deal with the conditions. While true, it's nothing more than an observation. It doesn't tell us anything about the game or why the mechanics should be altered. Zing's claim is that warriors are the only class that suffers as a result of having to rely on their secondary, and he's wrong. That's not an argument, it's a gripe, and shouldn't be taken seriously til he shows that hex and condition removal aren't sufficient to counter the hexes and condtions that exist.

Hex and condition removal (from secondary skills) ARE sufficient to counter the hexes and conditions that exist; but at FAR too high a cost to the Warrior class.

The dependency on secondary skills neuters the sword almost completely out of PvP, restricts the use of secondary classes in a way that doesn’t occur with other primaries, takes the bite out of all but a handful of W/X/Weapon combos. And if the Warrior ignores the fact he must lean on his secondary (and when I say lean I mean like a crutch), he becomes a disproportionate drain on teammates.

I should probably have stated this from the onset, but here’s MY definition of balance in Guild Wars: You can pick any weapon, any combination of character classes, and still have a reasonable shot at doing well if you brought the right skills along.

That’s SO not happening right now with the Warrior class – ESPECIALLY with the Warrior class.

It's hardly just a gripe. Almost every skill is somehow tied to an attribute. -- The higher the attribute the more effective the skill.
If a Warrior HAS to (out of sheer survival necessity) dump points into his secondary attributes, while every other class doesn’t have to do that, it's not balanced.

That's the point I've been trying to make the entire time. You don't think if a Warrior had a primary condition remover tied to Strength, or Tactics it'd be FAR more effective then a condition remover attached to his secondary attributes (which will NEVER be maxed out)?

Primary condition removers would open up the Warrior class to any subclass, and any weapon, without making them overpowered in PvP.

Pharalon · Jul 15, 2005, 05:00 AM // 05:00

I still don't get why you want to remove conditions and hexes with your warrior. There's 8 people on your team. 2-4 of those will be support characters. Their sole purpose is to remove hexes, conditions, heal, buff etc, and they'll always do it 10x better than you ever could, even if you had the skills available to you. Why are you so hell bent on being 100% self-sufficient?

ZING · Jul 15, 2005, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

I still don't get why you want to remove conditions and hexes with your warrior. There's 8 people on your team. 2-4 of those will be support characters. Their sole purpose is to remove hexes, conditions, heal, buff etc, and they'll always do it 10x better than you ever could, even if you had the skills available to you. Why are you so hell bent on being 100% self-sufficient?

*Sigh*
It's never going to sink in because at all times the assumption that I want a self sufficent Warrior is killing any argument I may be making.

For the last time, I DO NOT WANT THAT!

There's a BIG freakin difference between "I want my Warrior to be all rampanging, and l33t -- and I want to be able to carry a sword in PvP without being looked at like a n00b".

And I will continue to restate this over and over until someone show's me the error of my ways.

"The dependency on secondary skills neuters the sword almost completely out of PvP, restricts the use of secondary classes in a way that doesn’t occur with other primaries, takes the bite out of all but a handful of W/X/Weapon combos. And if the Warrior ignores the fact he must lean on his secondary (and when I say lean I mean like a crutch), he becomes a disproportionate drain on teammates."

Malchiel · Jul 15, 2005, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

I still don't get why you want to remove conditions and hexes with your warrior. There's 8 people on your team. 2-4 of those will be support characters. Their sole purpose is to remove hexes, conditions, heal, buff etc, and they'll always do it 10x better than you ever could, even if you had the skills available to you. Why are you so hell bent on being 100% self-sufficient?

I don't suppose you have every played a warrior, have you?

If those other classes have to remove condition offa you all the time they'll be running out of energy very quickly, which can be better used to save... uh their own life for one thing (since you are rarely in any real danger, well unless all your teammates are all dead =_=).

It's so easy to make a warrior useless. By that I mean totally useless. And don't count on your monk to remove condition from you, when you can get so easily re-conditioned. They have better things to do like saving their own hide.

Pharalon · Jul 15, 2005, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

"Primary condition removers would open up the Warrior class to any subclass, and any weapon, without making them overpowered in PvP."

I'm not saying that giving warriors condition removal would make them overpowered. In fact I'd say you'd be making them worse, as you're letting new people make even less useful warriors. I'm assuming you're thinking of something along the lines of Healing Signet and Antidote Signet. Great put it in, but it will just be another skill that nubs will love, that will never see the light of day in proper PvP, and if taken will further lower a warriors already borderline DPS. Yippee, what a great evolution in gameplay that would be. Honestly, if you're a warrior, blind and weakness are the least of your worries. They'll be gone in 2 seconds flat, and come with a nice juicy heal as a side benifit. You're better off taking an empty slot instead of self conditon removal: at least an empty slot won't waste your time. Blocks and evades are the biggest threat to your DPS, and what do you know, a warrior already has a skill to negate those.

Quote:

I don't suppose you have every played a warrior, have you?

No. In fact, in the last year I've been PvPing, I've never actually played any of the classes at all

Quote:

If those other classes have to remove condition offa you all the time they'll be running out of energy very quickly

It's not a game balance issue if your monks can't manage their energy and run an efficient condition management setup.

Malchiel · Jul 15, 2005, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

I'm not saying that giving warriors condition removal would make them overpowered. In fact I'd say you'd be making them worse, as you're letting new people make even less useful warriors. I'm assuming you're thinking of something along the lines of Healing Signet and Antidote Signet. Great put it in, but it will just be another skill that nubs will love, that will never see the light of day in proper PvP, and if taken will further lower a warriors already borderline DPS. Yippee, what a great evolution in gameplay that would be. Honestly, if you're a warrior, blind and weakness are the least of your worries. They'll be gone in 2 seconds flat, and come with a nice juicy heal as a side benifit. You're better off taking an empty slot instead of self conditon removal: at least an empty slot won't waste your time. Blocks and evades are the biggest threat to your DPS, and what do you know, a warrior already has a skill to negate those.

Actually this will also increase a warrior's dps.

The hardest hitting warrior is the war/e with aftershock.

The only way for a warrior to have remove condition relying on secondary is to have a secondary... gues what? MONK! >< or necro. Both of which aren't great damage dealer.

That's why relying on 2ndary profession as a crutch limits you, your damage output, your combination.

Pharalon · Jul 15, 2005, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

The hardest hitting warrior is the war/e with aftershock.

rofl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

The only way for a warrior to have remove condition relying on secondary is to have a secondary... gues what? MONK! >< or necro. Both of which aren't great damage dealer.

Or to have a teammate.... I feel this argument is a dead end.

Zeru · Jul 15, 2005, 06:19 AM // 06:19

15 axe
11 strength
10 smiting

Strength of honor and judges insight can be sustained with a zealous axe

Frenzy+cleave/executioners/penetrating

That is going to beat the hell out of your hammer warrior in terms of sustained damage per second. People are taking w/e aftershock user too far; it's a great combo starter, but that's it. Don't subscribe to the fotm club.

I usually have to play martyr monk (condition spam is still pretty popular) and very very rarely do blind/weakness last for more than 2-3 seconds on warriors. Hexes last slightly longer but only because remove hex has a 2 second cast. as Pharalon hinted at the biggest threats to a warrior are wards (melee/foes) and skills that make your hits get blocked like aegis/guardian. Ironically those are mentioned far less in this thread (at all even?). Learn how the game works before you start acting like you do and misleading others who are eager to learn rather than deny it when the facts are laid in front of you.

When natures renewal dies down people are going to have to start to love wards and aegis/guardian or they are going to get absolutely mauled by buff stacked warriors who pull out insane sustained dps that monks simply can't handle without other means.

I seriously hope that no newbie who is eager to learn pvp reads this thread or he'll be pointed in the completely opposite direction in terms of how pvp works.

lanilifar · Jul 15, 2005, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Primary condition removers would open up the Warrior class to any subclass, and any weapon, without making them overpowered in PvP.

Why should warriors get this without also looking at the other classes?
I assume then that elementalists should also have Primary condition and Hex removal added.
Rangers would need to have their condition and Hex removal beefed up, since the condition removal is limited, and the Hex removal comes with heavy steel cables attached.
Necromancers would need to have Hex removal added, and their condition removal would need to be looked at as they can only remove one at a time.
Mesmers need condition removal added, they currently have none.

Quote:

Hex and condition removal (from secondary skills) ARE sufficient to counter the hexes and conditions that exist; but at FAR too high a cost to the Warrior class.

The dependency on secondary skills neuters the sword almost completely out of PvP, restricts the use of secondary classes in a way that doesn’t occur with other primaries, takes the bite out of all but a handful of W/X/Weapon combos.

I am gonna have to call bullshit (if you take offense to me calling bullshit, because you are not lying, then I will be content to just call you ignorant) on this. See below:
Wa/Me - Inspired Hex has a short cast time and costs 2 energy (it costs 5, but you get 3 back) with no points in Inspiration. While I would not use this myself, Hex Breaker lasts one minute with no points in Dom and costs a measly 5 energy, and has no cast time.
Wa/Mo - Comtemplation of Purity works well at your mandatory 0 Divine Favor, has a low cost of 5, and a very short cast time, although it does require you to have and lose an enchantment. Purge Conditions is not even linked to an attribute and costs a measly 5 energy with a very fast cast time. Remove Hex has no linked Attribute and only costs 5, but does have that 2 second cast time.
Wa/E - your just as screwed as a primary Elementalist
Wa/R - Antidote Signet is not linked to an attribute, costs no energy, but has the 2 second cast time (and only removes a few conditions). Nature's Renewal works fine for Hex removal at 0 Wilderness Surv, but takes 5 seconds to cast and has those heavy steel cables mentioned above. Basically, your just as limited as a primary ranger.
Wa/Ne - Plague Touch is a natural fit as you want to be close anyway, costs only 5, has a short cast time, and is not linked to any attribute.

Jul 15, 2005, 06:37 AM // 06:37

O my god, someone close this topic already as it's just borderline stupidity at the moment.

ZING · Jul 15, 2005, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by lanilifar

I am gonna have to call bullshit (if you take offense to me calling bullshit, because you are not lying, then I will be content to just call you ignorant) on this. See below:
Wa/Me - Inspired Hex has a short cast time and costs 2 energy (it costs 5, but you get 3 back) with no points in Inspiration. While I would not use this myself, Hex Breaker lasts one minute with no points in Dom and costs a measly 5 energy, and has no cast time.
Wa/Mo - Comtemplation of Purity works well at your mandatory 0 Divine Favor, has a low cost of 5, and a very short cast time, although it does require you to have and lose an enchantment. Purge Conditions is not even linked to an attribute and costs a measly 5 energy with a very fast cast time. Remove Hex has no linked Attribute and only costs 5, but does have that 2 second cast time.
Wa/E - your just as screwed as a primary Elementalist
Wa/R - Antidote Signet is not linked to an attribute, costs no energy, but has the 2 second cast time (and only removes a few conditions). Nature's Renewal works fine for Hex removal at 0 Wilderness Surv, but takes 5 seconds to cast and has those heavy steel cables mentioned above. Basically, your just as limited as a primary ranger.
Wa/Ne - Plague Touch is a natural fit as you want to be close anyway, costs only 5, has a short cast time, and is not linked to any attribute.

I could try and refute this skill by skill, but why do that? Check the recharge times for 3/4 of what you just listed.

lanilifar · Jul 15, 2005, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

I could try and refute this skill by skill, but why do that? Check the recharge times for 3/4 of what you just listed.

I am sorry. I did not realize you were saying you wanted warriors to have better condition and hex removal than everyone else. My fault totally here.