Curse

lanilifar · Jul 13, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

Plague touch that lasts for the mininum amount of time does not compare to a ten second blind associated with someone else's primary attribute.

Plague Touch doesn't have a timer. Do you know what Plague Touch does?
The time of the condition transferred is based on whatever gave you the condition. Not to mention Plague Touch doesn't even have an attribute attached to it, so there is no worry about spreading points to a non warrior attribute.

Quote:

Think of how TRULY feared (and disruptive) a Knockdown/Aftershock Warrior would be if he had an ability to get to you no matter what you did to him.

Very feared, beacuse he would be incredibly overpowered. Although perhaps you exaggerated when you said, "no matter what you did to him." I am not totally against an expanded skill list that may include some hex and condition cleansing skills. Options are always nifty, but with more options come more unforseen and potentially unbalancing combinations. This idea must be approached with caution, but is very worthwhile to pursue.

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acan Vishnu

Plague Touch is unlinked, you need no points in any Necromancer attribute lines. Also, it transfers the condition to your enemy. Its gone from you, unless they can reapply it

often times, they can. And they can re-apply it more often than you can plague touch them.

Compared to a warrior eles have unlimited energy. And with a few skills, they truly have unlimited energy. Also returning blindness to an ele isn't very debilitating as it is to a warrior.

But we have talked only about blindness. What about cripple? A ranger can put one on you easily. You still need to close up that gap to plague touch, which you can't not even with sprint.

And once you close the gap with that ranger, you probably hit a trap or two. So right away you get about 4 more condition on you, burn (flame trap), blindness (dust trap), cripple and bleeding. All the while the ranger will back away and shoot poison arrow at you over and over and over. You don't have enough energy regen to transfer all those negative condition. Not enough.

Furthermore if you play the role as a tank in the group and you charge ahead of your casters, to take the hit for them. You can be sure to get hit by other common condition, just as dibilitating. Enervating charge, one of the must haves air ele line up, induces weakness. So now you have so many condition, and can't negate them. Not to mention the -7 degen from bleeding and poison.

If the enemy has a necromancer with them, you can be sure of another -10 degen. And mez probably will give you just as much.

You've now become useless and timed for death, and the other party can pretty much ignore you. After all you can't deal, you can't move, hell you're literally dying already.

Of course none of that won't happen if you just stay at the back and let the casters tank... =_= which many of them can do a lot better at it. But a warrior if he doesn't tank, and doesn't deal as well as a caster, what is he to do?

Tellani Artini · Jul 13, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

What about rangers? What're warriors counter vs. rangers? Dots, blindness, burns, poison, cripple? What's a warrior to do against all those?

How about use all those defensive tactics stances that are supposed to be useless in PvP? Deflect arrows is cheap and great while approaching the enemy or using an easily-interrupted skill. All-ranger teams are popular enough these days to justify it imo. See also: wary stance, shields up. And hey, I've actually used these skills

mamluk · Jul 13, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08

I think that if we had more warrior skills that caused the dazed condition, things would be more balanced and warriors would be more enjoyable.

One thing to remember though, Guild Wars is about team fighting- if a good warrior has good backup, they can be very powerful and hard to stop.

ZING · Jul 13, 2005, 07:14 PM // 19:14

I'm a W.R -- My primary skills don't help me at all (in keeping me useful), and I have to assume that others will blind, enchant, or hex me. If I want to avoid these conditions on my own, it forces me to bring along Antidote Signet (-1 Skill Slot), Nature's Renewal (-2 Skill Slots), AND unless I plan to cast only a lvl 1 Spirit, spend attribute points on Wilderness Survival. I STILL have to worry about bleeding, and many conditions that aren't removed with Nature's Renewal, or Signet, and the best I can do at this point is bring along "I Will Survive" (-3 Skill Slots) to negate those conditions.

I can still theoretically be slowed down by some arrow that will cripple me, so sure enough let's bring along Deflect Arrows (-4 Skill Slots).

I've now wasted ALL my energy in activating those skills, NONE of them are spamable (not like I'd be able to spam them anyway if I wanted too given the energy cost), and I've only delayed the inevitable, because those conditions will end up on me again, but this time without the benefit of my initial warding.

Everybody else on the battle field gets to EASILY be defensively self sufficient against me while still contributing to the offensive scheme of things, while a I cannot say the same. How’s that fair I ask?

Scaphism · Jul 13, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

The sheer amount of misinformation and ignorance in this thread is staggering.
I don't even know where to begin addressing the questions asked (and unasked, but obvious) here.

Since the topic has drifted to warriors (and I'd like to remind everyone there are already threads on these subjects), a few things need to be clarified.

What is the real concern here? That warriors are too weak and elementalist are too strong? Conditions unfairly penalize warriors?

All of those claims are bogus, and here's why.
The "counters" to warriors and elementalists already exist, but many of them aren't popularly known yet. Warriors were very popular in testing for a variety of reasons, and people developed counters out of necessity. They became popular because of the power of the warrior. Everyone should recognize how powerful a warrior is when left unchecked.

What you're seeing now (and it's been this way for a couple months now) is a shift in the metagame. Warriors haven't gotten weaker, people have learned to use more tools to stop them.

That gives rise to other strategies that avoid the traditional warrior counters. Elementalists are a simple transition from physical damage to elemental damage, but the some of the best and most popular warrior counters (life bond, ward against melee) provide no benefit against elementalists.

When the metagame shifts and people stop bringing warrior hate to focus on elementalist hate, it will give rise to a different phase in the metagame.

As for the concern that warriors are gimped, I say this:
Warriors are an incredibly robust class. They undoubtably have the best armor in the game, can sustain their high damage attacks indefinitely (without dedicating any skill slots to energy management), can inflict a variety of conditions, and have more speed boosts than any other class (essential to their role). If condition are a huge pain to you, either stop them from being used on you or pick up a monk or necro secondary.

Most teams have figured out how to stop middle of the road warrior teams. Many of you are still struggling with middle of the road elementalist teams. If you are losing to spike damage all the time, learn to survivle the initial spike and turn the pace of the match into your favor. Get monks with faster reflexes on your team, and learn how to control resource management during a fight. That's the key to elementalist-heavy teams. Do you find that those air eles can spam all day because they have elemental attunement/ether renewal up? Disable that skill and watch them flounder.

Don't fault others for finding a strategy that works for them- look at yourselves and figure out what you can do to improve and beat them.

Rothgar · Jul 13, 2005, 07:51 PM // 19:51

I'm a warrior/necromancer with plague touch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

often times, they can. And they can re-apply it more often than you can plague touch them.

The only one that is easy reaplyable is poison. But this then applies for any type of condition removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

Also returning blindness to an ele isn't very debilitating as it is to a warrior.

So why send it back to the ele? Send it to their warrior or ranger. Warrior or Ranger not in range? Thats fine too, I'll get it off me as soon as you put it on me and made you just waste a slot on a (now) useless spell (since you can't keep it on me).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

But we have talked only about blindness. What about cripple? A ranger can put one on you easily. You still need to close up that gap to plague touch, which you can't not even with sprint.

Crippled, I love being crippled in a huge fight. I just put it down on the caster I'm fighting and he can't get away from me. Thanks for helping me kill your teammates Ranger Dude. A running Ranger? The only times I've had rangers run from me is when their down to the last man or so on their team. And then it doesn't really matter doesn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

And once you close the gap with that ranger, you probably hit a trap or two. So right away you get about 4 more condition on you, burn (flame trap), blindness (dust trap), cripple and bleeding. All the while the ranger will back away and shoot poison arrow at you over and over and over. You don't have enough energy regen to transfer all those negative condition. Not enough.

Your assuming a 1v1 fight here. See above comments.

And I almost always have enough energy to remove conditions from myself since I'm an axe warrior with only 1-2 energy skills. In the rare cases I don't have the enegy I'll call for a removal by my teammates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

Furthermore if you play the role as a tank in the group and you charge ahead of your casters, to take the hit for them. You can be sure to get hit by other common condition, just as dibilitating. Enervating charge, one of the must haves air ele line up, induces weakness. So now you have so many condition, and can't negate them. Not to mention the -7 degen from bleeding and poison.

Bleeding, love that to. You just hurt your teamate when I transfer it to your monk that I'm killing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

If the enemy has a necromancer with them, you can be sure of another -10 degen. And mez probably will give you just as much.

Utter nonsese stated here. You can only get -10 degen, max. And that isn't going to be because of bleeding since I'm transfering that to your teammates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

You've now become useless and timed for death, and the other party can pretty much ignore you. After all you can't deal, you can't move, hell you're literally dying already.

Wrong for all the reasons above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

Of course none of that won't happen if you just stay at the back and let the casters tank... =_= which many of them can do a lot better at it. But a warrior if he doesn't tank, and doesn't deal as well as a caster, what is he to do?

The casters almost always tank in PvP. Check out the many threads in this fourm on target priorities almost all agree its monk/mesmer, elemenalist/necromancer, ranger/warrior unless they have a build designed for anti-warriors.

If conditions are big in the metagame, plague touch is in for me.

ZING · Jul 13, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Still it persists with the 'fairness'
If you have to use a sentence that contains ANY talk of a secondary class to SAVE the Warrior's azz from someone else's primary you're admitting there's an imbalance. Because the Warrior is the ONLY class that can't do something about every other class WITH HIS PRIMARY SKILLS.

If someone can show me a SINGLE Warrior build that doesn't force the Warrior to depend on his Secondary class to save him I'll finally shut up. Because I can go to every single other class and say "use this primary skill and warrior x is useless."

The secondary skills are crutches to warriors, not compliments. Every other class invests in secondary attributes as a means to make them better weapons. The warrior does it so his casters don't have to spend every second keeping him out of a daze.

Glasswalker · Jul 13, 2005, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Thank god Scaphism! I was beginning to think I was the only one that remembered teams of 8 W/Mo holding the HoH for 30 games, and all the threads here saying that they were overpowered.

I started off this game playing N/R because I wanted to be a Minion Master (Gore Trader because if you give me a dead body, I'll give you something useful) but with everyone complaining that Whammos can't be beat, I switched to prove them wrong. I made him a condition spammer/Blood Magic health-transfer guy, and the Warriors, they started falling.

Then when people started saying that each class had a role, and you had better fill that role or you are a noob and you will die, I made an E/Mo Tank to show that I could stand toe to toe with any W/Ne (yep, they were popular for 10 minutes -- still really effective in my mind) or whatever. I was going to make an Illusionary Weaponry build too, but I was beaten to that.

Now you guys have me all p!$$d off again, and I'm going to make a Mage Killer Warrior ala Conan or Odessius. I will specifically go after Necros and Elementalists (the classic enemies in a Conan book/movie) and I will use no spells, and I will kill you.

Now let's just see if I can get him up to 20th and into Tombs before this nonsense all dies down and my threat is forgotten.

Disoblige · Jul 13, 2005, 08:07 PM // 20:07

omg.Mhydrian Town Dweller. use interruptions you fooling guy. Use nature renewal against me/n .. God.. use spell breaker or oblian flesh

Scaphism · Jul 13, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Zing, I don't think you have a strong understanding of the game.
There aren't just 6 primary professions in the game, and the game does not boil down to 8 1v1 matchups. There are 30 different profession combinations, so comparing "all warriors" to "all elementalists" is an inherently flawed comparison.

You're also unclear stating what your gripes are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zing

Because the Warrior is the ONLY class that can't do something about every other class WITH HIS PRIMARY SKILLS

What are you talking about? What do you want warriors to do to others with their primary profession skills? I thought you wanted a way to remove hexes and conditions from warriors?

The notion that every other primary profession in the game can handle every single other profession is laughable on its face. Every character in your team should fill a role- they're not 8 dueling machines. At least not in a robust team build.

While we're on the subject, elementalists can't get rid of hexes or conditions on themsleves either. That doesn't make them underpowered. Yet why aren't you crying because you have no way to remove the arcane condundrum that was just cast on you?

The hex/condition/enchantment removal is divided among three professions: Monks can remove both hexes and conditions, but not enchantments.
Necromancers can transfer conditions but not hexes, and can remove enchantments.
Mesmers can remove hexes and enchatments, but not conditions.

The one exception to that is Antidote Signet, on the ranger, but it's a pretty horrid skill. Sure, they can remove a few conditons once every eight seconds, but the only one that stops them from doing their job is blindness. Granted they have the option of bringing a slow-casting, slow recharge signet to remove the condition on themselves, but a monk is far and away superior at getting rid of blindness on any character, and healing in the process. Why would you even worry about bringing subpar condition removal into the game? If I saw a ranger I was fighting using Antidote Signet, I'd pump my fist because he's down to 7 useful skill slots and I'm that much closer to winning.
Illusion of Haste is a form of condition removal as well- it temporarily removes cripple, but adds it back on at the end, so it's not really removal- it just delays the cripple period.

If you're not looking at your secondary profession to fill out your build, you're not playing to every advantage available. Some builds may not call for any skills from their secondary, but they should still be considered in the design process. Builds rely on their secondaries because they improve its overall effectiveness. Just because you can create a few builds without a secondary doesn't A) make them builds worth using, and B) mean than any build that does use its secondary is "using a crutch."

Your logic is flawed.

zorades · Jul 13, 2005, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

Still it persists with the 'fairness'
If you have to use a sentence that contains ANY talk of a secondary class to SAVE the Warrior's azz from someone else's primary you're admitting there's an imbalance. Because the Warrior is the ONLY class that can't do something about every other class WITH HIS PRIMARY SKILLS.

If someone can show me a SINGLE Warrior build that doesn't force the Warrior to depend on his Secondary class to save him I'll finally shut up. Because I can go to every single other class and say "use this primary skill and warrior x is useless."

The secondary skills are crutches to warriors, not compliments. Every other class invests in secondary attributes as a means to make them better weapons. The warrior does it so his casters don't have to spend every second keeping him out of a daze.

You seem to miss the entire point of this game. No warrior or any other class should have to depend on only himself to beat the other team, it is a TEAM game and if you have happened to miss this, I’m sorry for you and for the teams that will have to play with you. The classes in the game are meant to be played together and if you and other ppl can't seem to figure this out, its just fine with me... just more teams in tombs that will play all air, or all monk, or all necro, or ranger, that will just be a piece of cake to beat using a balanced team (and by balanced i mean exactly that, 8 ppl that work together and bring skills to complement each other to make the team win). And Warriors have their role (a pure axe warrior with balthazar's aura cast on him by another team member is just an example). Nothing makes me more happy then to realize that i am going to play a team that is one sided (all ele, all rangers) because the counters to the build are already available to any team that is build for balance, and i am not going to repeat them here because if you don't know them already than too bad for you (on more noob ... and one more easy win for my team).

PS: if the W are so useless why would ppl bother to 'waste' skill slots just to counter them ... and trust me ... when you fight a good team one single skill that you brought or didn't can make (and probably will) all the difference.

Third Quarter · Jul 13, 2005, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

This pretty much makes the point that Warriors aren't balanced. A Warrior HAS to put skill points in his secondary attributes to make himself useful, while everyone else gets to stick to maxed out primary attributes with their skills.

This is the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

For the most part, you should be relying on your teammates to help you out. A necro primary can do Rigor Mortis better than you can. Monks can cure conditions and heal you at the same time.

Sarus · Jul 13, 2005, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

Zing, I don't think you have a strong understanding of the game.

Understatement of the year

This thread is ridiculous, I feel like I'm reading something on Guild Hall.

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

While we're on the subject, elementalists can't get rid of hexes or conditions on themsleves either. That doesn't make them underpowered. Yet why aren't you crying because you have no way to remove the arcane condundrum that was just cast on you?

*snicker* Eles can counter degens quite well thank you

may be not other condition, but about the only condition ele is really susceptible too is daze.

What you want to blind an ele? Cripple them? It's not like they need to go melee on you.

balinor limad · Jul 13, 2005, 11:18 PM // 23:18

some of what this guy saying is true but necros are somtimes hard 2 beat but i suggest 4 things
1, YOUR A MESMER power leak/spike are great for ending spells arcane acho will also hlp
2, a competant monk does wonders for a team try droknars forge arena
3, if the problem is really that bad try changing your build 2 b a R/MO or mesmer/monk or whatever haveing a monk as a secondary prof is a dream try bringing healing breeze and mendng or go 4 protection and use the spell Sheild of Regeneration{E}
4, if your really THAT desprate 2 win buy a guide personall i dont like em, but u might

no flame here just suggestions

acidteardrop · Jul 14, 2005, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

What you want to blind an ele? Cripple them? It's not like they need to go melee on you.

Unless they're a geomancer. Stoning and Obsidian Flame would be their best ranged spells, which doesn't compare to an air spiker.

Thom · Jul 14, 2005, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Warriors would be more balanced if the Strength penetration adjustment was increased just a bit. Strength isn't worth dumping points into, but a slight adjustment the class should be more playable. In the current game environment, a well organized group of warrior could play at a high level. That said, most warriors don't know what they are doing. It is much easier to run a count down build than to explain to a noob warrior how to run good warrior tactics (mutiple targets and adreniline spiking).

Nexx · Jul 14, 2005, 04:54 PM // 16:54

A friend of mine said that his team fought a mostly warrior based korean team a few nights ago and they got creamed. Not exactly sure what kind of team he was on but he did say a good mix of rangers and elementalists... hmmm.

I think we need Anet to provide us with some statistics. With GW growing rapidly I can understand the variety of personal experience with different results but this flux in the metagame toward mostly spirit spamming and spike team is beginning to get on my nerve.

Hopefully in the next few weeks, we can see some new tactics that would change the metagame. =] (The invisible hand of competitive online gaming, haha.)

Glasswalker · Jul 14, 2005, 05:34 PM // 17:34

I don't know if you need to mess with the Strength armor pen. Sure, it's not great, but your attribute point investment is offset by the skill increases. This is of course assuming you use those skills...

Nexx -- What would you do with those statistics? Would you use them to decide what class to play based upon what is statistically best? I ask because I actually am curious...

I for one love seeing Spike teams. The 'new' tactic is easy:
1. Get your monk to survive the initial spike.
2. Energy Drain like crazy.
3. Wipe the floor with them.

Elemental Spikes are dead, and the people using them as a gimmick, just don't seem to know it yet.

Spirit Spam I don't like so much because it makes the match last longer. Yes, you can kill them, but you can't do it in under 2 minutes. Well, I can't anyway.

But I have seen some creative uses of Spirits that make me applaud their use. I can't exactly fault them for using something that works and requires some brains and coordination.

A completely seperate question on the Warrior Gimp Theory (WGT): Does no one else appreciate adrenaline? Having a bar full of skills that you can use even when you have 0 energy? Would anyone complain that Warriors are the only class that can do this? Just checking.