Curse

Mulatto · Jul 13, 2005, 02:52 AM // 02:52

once the target is set the enchatment can be taken away and spiked all at the same time as fasters then u can re apply the enchatment

again people act like its a 2v2 or a 1v1

we are talking 8v8

"the tomes". even if u have protective spirit on its still takes of 10% of your power. granted your not dead in 3 or 4 hits

you are now dead in 10 if the enchatment is still on u at the time

and considering u can spam air and each ele can get 2 hits on u at least

2x8 = 16 hits

tell me where are the defence for warriors against any magic put on him?

there are none u have to use a secondary class for that. every body else can buffer a warrior but a warrior can not take anything off of him if a spell is put on him if he is just a Warrior and only a warrior. every other class can stop melee attacks but a warrior can not reverse a spell put on him or bounce one back with the skills he is given to him. he is a wall and nothing more. he is good for PvE but not PvP because he has to use a secondary class to remove or heal himself, unless u want -40 armor which is just asking to die.

a pure mesmer,nec,monk and espcially rangers and eles can all buffer a warrior

but a pure warrior can only interurt with ceritan skills and one of them u need 10 adrenaline and its an elite

arredondo · Jul 13, 2005, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Yeah, numbers would help... how many Warrior primary teams (i.e. half or more are Warriors) are at the top of the ladder board? Any known teams consistently winning HoH? I really don't know, I'm just asking. The results on the scoreboard of any competitive activity are what people use to determine the viability of certain characters and team builds. If we don't see them winning anywhere in a noticable fashion, people will kinda grumble for improvements, whether that's right or wrong.

Are there any experienced Warrior-strong teams on the rampage out there? Maybe it has yet to be uncovered as it is still early in the GW life cycle? Maye their strength to teams isn't to overwhelmingly dominate but to support with durability and resiliance found nowhere else? I'm more of a learner here, so any specific info or examples of high-level successful results for this class on the battlefields would be helpful, even if they are rare. Anybody know?

Jul 13, 2005, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Mulatto do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Agreeably... warriors is weak. Warriors cunning has like 60 seconds recharge. Wards are renewable continuously.

Warrior has no defense vs. condition (or should I say no viable defense, unless you think I will survive is sufficient)
No defense vs. hexes
No counter vs. protection spells

Honestly I feel that warriors are underpowered...

Rangers/necros/eles/monks/mezmers each of them can be powerful done correcctly. It's just Warriors that doesn't have any counter vs. the all to common condition and hexes.

ZING · Jul 13, 2005, 04:02 AM // 04:02

I do agree that PvP is kind of a joke from a Warrior's perspective. If you play a Warrior in the Tombs like he's MEANT to be played, you'll be even more useless as an offensive weapon then a flag stand.

I understand making sure the Warrior class isn't easy to play as in the Tombs, (thus making them overpowered) but ArenaNET really should do something about turning Warriors into ACTUAL Warriors in PvP.

It's sad that an advanced player who knows every skill and how to counter every skill, still cannot take a Warrior build and play it the way it was MEANT to be played. I understand making sure the n00bs don't rule the PvP scene, but at least give a smart W/X build a chance to do what they're supposed to do.

It's not like you even have to nerf every other character. Here's but one example -- An Elite Shout that forces every enemy to ONLY target you (with any offensive skills) for like 10 seconds, with a medium recharge time, would go a long way to allowing you to play a Warrior as a Warrior.

Just my humble and honest opinion.

lanilifar · Jul 13, 2005, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

I do agree that PvP is kind of a joke from a Warrior's perspective. If you play a Warrior in the Tombs like he's MEANT to be played, you'll be even more useless as an offensive weapon then a flag stand.

MEANT to be played? What the hell does that mean? It seems YOU expect a warrior to be a tank, and you can't see beyond that tiny role.
A warrior in guild wars can accomplish a variety of tasks, there is no way they are MEANT to be played.
Instead of bitching that no one attacks you and complaining that the warrior does fill the role YOU expected, learn what they can do and then do those things well. The tombs is full of frightening and skilled warriors, be one.

ZING · Jul 13, 2005, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by lanilifar

MEANT to be played? What the hell does that mean? It seems YOU expect a warrior to be a tank, and you can't see beyond that tiny role.
A warrior in guild wars can accomplish a variety of tasks, there is no way they are MEANT to be played.
Instead of bitching that no one attacks you and complaining that the warrior does fill the role YOU expected, learn what they can do and then do those things well. The tombs is full of frightening and skilled warriors, be one.

How ignorant can you be? Look at my character class for just a second (something you should have done before making that speech). Since when does a W.R make a good tank?!?!

You could have started by simply looking at my character class to realize I don't play as a tank, and that maybe I have a valid point -- but why do that when you can reply with all that obvious informed opinion about me.

If what you say is true, why do threads exist about Warriors getting no respect in the Tombs? There are plenty of n00b ele’s but I don’t see threads about no one wanting to get into a PUG with them.

If a game is truly balanced then every class should have an equal chance of getting into a group. Do you really think that’s happening right now in Guild Wars?

lanilifar · Jul 13, 2005, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Here's but one example -- An Elite Shout that forces every enemy to ONLY target you (with any offensive skills) for like 10 seconds, with a medium recharge time, would go a long way to allowing you to play a Warrior as a Warrior.

emphasis mine

YOU want warriors to tank. You want the enemies to target warriors.
You said it, not me.

Quote:

If what you say is true, why do threads exist about Warriors getting no respect in the Tombs? There are plenty of n00b ele’s but I don’t see threads about no one wanting to get into a PUG with them.

Because warriors tend to think they can handle more than they really can beacuse of the way the PvE game plays. Because warriors tend to think they are supposed to be tanks because of the way the PvE game plays. This means a lot of warriors do not play well, until they learn the differences. Elementalist from PvE to PvP has a smaller learning curve. I have seen plenty of respect and calls for warriors recently. As others have stated, these things cycle, the only constant will be the monk.

Jul 13, 2005, 05:18 AM // 05:18

You do know that taking threads on public forums about Class Balance as serious indication of player skill or whatever isn't really wise right?

There are people out there that know how to make Warrior Builds work. Just because you dont see them in Tombs doesn't mean they arent there.

And an Elite Shout that makes people target you?

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...
...
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Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

MEANT to be played? What the hell does that mean? It seems YOU expect a warrior to be a tank, and you can't see beyond that tiny role.

Okay if you don't want warriors to be a tank, exactly what role are they supposed to fill?

They can't out dmg the ele, the necro, the mezmers, the rangers (some ranger builds are pretty crazy... I don't wanna spread them, because they're like really really tough to counter) In fact they can out damage the eles in some ways.

So let's see what else are the warriors supposed to do? Huh?

The latest trend seems to lean towards hammer + aftershock. Okay it looks like it could do some massive dmg. But really, aftershock has high recharge, about 20 seconds. And it still won't do an air ele in terms of damage. Worse of all it can be countered in exactly the same manner air magic can be countered.

You want them to be distruptive, with knocks down, a few interrupts here and there. Well... mezmers can completely and totally shut down a monk. So instead of a warrior, a mezmer is better in this role.

As a tank... well if you want a real tank why not just get an earth/water ele? They don't only tank forthemselves but actually protect the team too with wards.

Heck for that matter a monk can out tank the warriors, and heal/protect the team too.

So what role should a warrior play?

As a tank, warrior is a complete joke. They can be rendered pretty useless, with slow, blindness, especially DOTs. My necro can waste a warrior in just seconds. A mezmer has stances, and signet that makes warriors attack miss. An ele has wards, armors, etc. Both necro, mez, monks and eles, have skills that bypass armor, making it virtually useless.

The thing is, almost every class in GW has not just one or two counters vs. warriors... but they have many many EFFECTIVE counters. Whereas warriors has no counters against these counters. Spamming seeking blade? Like you can do it with that puny energy regen. Warriors cunning goes for like 10 seconds, recharge for 50 seconds. Still that doesn't solve the problem with like 20 health degen stacked on you.

Yes I play a necro, play a warrior, play an ele. I like my warrior a lot, but I noticed that in terms of survivability, my ele and my necro ranks a lot higher than my warrior. In terms of damage output they also won out against the warrior. In terms of counter, they're also less easily countered, since they don't rely on melee.

A war/mez would fall victim to the ranger. Both classes has no counter vs. condition. And uh... lately we've been having an explosion of rangers.
A war/mo will be laid low by necros, mezmers, and likely eles too
A war/ranger... by just about anything... =_=
A war/nec... by just about anything too...
A war/ele... by just about anything also...

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

You do know that taking threads on public forums about Class Balance as serious indication of player skill or whatever isn't really wise right?

There are people out there that know how to make Warrior Builds work. Just because you dont see them in Tombs doesn't mean they arent there.

And an Elite Shout that makes people target you?

...
...
...
...
...

Nawh... at best a warrior is only semi-good.

There're ppl that can make warrior build effective in the tomb?? Show me one. Have yet to see it.

Like I said the spot for the warrior can be used by other classes. An earth ele as a tank for example.

A mezmers instead of a distrupt warrior.

A real air ele instead of a hammer warrior, which btw both have a similar weakness vs... a particular monk spell =_=, Air ele being the harder to counter. (they can be cast right away, has longer distance hence can hit anyone, removing the predictability)

What is a warrior supposed to do, really? Cripple? Condition? I'd rather take a good trapper than a war.

Bottomline is that warrior is near useless. If you think differently, tell me one build that actually makes a warrior shines compared to the other classes.

Mulatto · Jul 13, 2005, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

If a game is truly balanced then every class should have an equal chance of getting into a group. Do you really think that’s happening right now in Guild Wars?

yeah thats because eles are not balanced at all. any one of these 14 year olds that like to say some one is whining when they are just point out the facts can play an ele and think they are good when all they do is Nuke.

Spideyknight · Jul 13, 2005, 05:59 AM // 05:59

There's a problem here and it's pretty much that you're not working together with the rest of your team. A warrior's best friend in dealing damage to an ele is a necro. Have him fire off rigor mortis and weaken armor and hopefully your monk is good enough to remove your blindness and you're now causing some serious pain. Also who says war's can't remove hexes? Hex removal takes 5 energy even with 20 energy 5 is not going to break me.

Also remember that war's are targeted last, do you really need that shield? Sometimes a decent foci is better than the shield even if you don't meet the req. Having 26(just using the foci I use as an example, I don't meet the req and it still gives me 6 energy) energy and the benefits from the foci, gives you a little bit more energy to work with.

It's already been stated but never use Mending in pvp, ever. You're the last targeted so Mending isn't going to help you until it's too late. Run Strength of Honor instead, best of all since you get targeted last you won't have to worry about reappling it since very few people think to shatter the War.

Or break out of the mold and run a W/N, which is a sustained damage machine. Rigor mortis invalidates Ward against melee in one fell swoop, you use Plague touch to bestow the blindness the ele just put on you, on the enemy war who just ran by you, heading toward your monks. He is now not as happy as he once was since he's swinging at nothing but air, and the ele's confidence that you won't be touching him for 9 seconds is shattered as soon as your axe connects with his face. Weaken Armor then softens him up quite a bit more, ensuring he's ripe for some punishment from Eviscerate and Executioner's Strike. The same works on monks, though once again you're going to need a little love from your necro friend and a little spell called rend. Cast your weaken armor(the 3 second casting time hurts, I admit) as your necro friend blasts the monks enchantments to pieces and swing away. Add a little Frenzy to sweeten the deal.

There's a lot of ways to stop a war, this is very true, but two things separate good players using wars, from bad players who have no clue: the proper application of his/her secondary class and teamwork. If you have those then you can see a war at his peak, posting the highest sustained damage numbers you've ever seen. It's all about knowing how to play, and working together with your team to improve your strengths and limit your weaknesses, noone wins alone.

On a side note a little math adjustment:

25% armor penetration takes 60AL down to 45 not 35. And, not a correction, but here's a hint, any war who knows what the heck he's doing should be running Platemail which is 85 AL, and one piece(gloves) of Ascalon or Knights at his or her discretion(though I gotta say when you combine that with Sup Absorption the -5 dmg is pretty nice).

One more addition, Ranger's and War's aren't even close when it comes to energy. Ranger's get one pip more of regen and start at a base of 25 and what really seals the deal is Expertise, which tosses all Ranger related issues with Energy Management straight to the wayside. Luckily for War's they don't use much energy anyway, since they have no viable way in pvp to get that energy back at a decent rate. Ranger's just stack the necessary points into Expertise and spam away. With the extra pip of regen, along with the higher base pool and skills costing a lot less I doubt a Ranger ever has problems with energy. Warrior's are screwed when it comes to energy, no question, no class has it as bad, which is why you should refrain from using it where possible.

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 06:01 AM // 06:01

eles are easily countered. I'm always amazed at the number of people who can't counter them =_=

I have had a lot of experience playing as an ele, having had 2 eles, one was air, one was earth, the best 2 lines of spells. Both of them can be countered quite easily.

ZING · Jul 13, 2005, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Oh for the love of god, some of you are just rediculous. I’m saying IN GENERAL, things aren’t balanced.

*I* have no problems getting into a group, but I do sympathize with others who do, simply because it’s obvious a Warrior has a lot less skills to deal with other classes. Look at the skills for every other class. How many of them have skills intended to negate a Warrior AND other classes as well? Now go through a Warrior’s skills and list off all the ways he can negate ALL other class BEFORE he himself becomes useless.

And yes I know there are secondary classes, but it’s a little unbalanced when a Warrior has to take points away from his primary stats in order to pump them into secondary stats to keep them useful on the battlefield. Especially when all other classes just use skills that are already part of their primary attributes.

Does no one see that as a little unbalanced? If every other class can stick to their primary attributes and be able to negate all other classes in some way, why shouldn’t a Warrior be able to do the same?

Keep in mind I DON’T think PvP sucks. I have lots of fun with it, but I’m just saying that all things are not equal.

Jul 13, 2005, 06:08 AM // 06:08

You know, I'm not even going to respond to guys that dont know how to multiply and add correctly(then make excuses about "its the same number" when they're caught", dont know that AL is calculated by hit locations, still think that every class in the game does more damage than Warriors, still think Hammer+aftershock is a trend, thinks Warriors are meant for tanking in PvP(god help us),think Eles arent balanced because they can do a ranged spell with 25%AP and Warriors are melee and dont have that property which equals auto-imbalance(while ignoring Energy management) and a host of stupid junk that adds up to the combined intellect of a wet tampon. I think we should archive this topic and label it "What happens when you dont know what you're talking about"

also to add, if you want an Effective Warrior build that fits into a Tombs team: Run a Hammer Warrior with Fear Me while being pumped by Dark Fury. Thats a start to something low level but decent.

Nightwish · Jul 13, 2005, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Several of these posts seem to indicate that warriors can contribute just as much in pvp as others if played at a higher skill level. So does that mean it takes more to play a warr to bring the same effect as other classes? That might still indicate imbalance.

However, this makes me wonder if this imbalance is really Anet's intention. If warriors are designed to be just as good as other classes (as easy to bring out the same effect), GW will be overwhelmed with the number of warriors relative to other classes since warriors are appealing to a lot of newcomers as well as melee fans.

Kashrlyyk · Jul 13, 2005, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spideyknight

There's a problem here and it's pretty much that you're not working together with the rest of your team. A warrior's best friend in dealing damage to an ele is a necro. Have him fire off rigor mortis and weaken armor and hopefully your monk is good enough to remove your blindness and you're now causing some serious pain. Also who says war's can't remove hexes? Hex removal takes 5 energy even with 20 energy 5 is not going to break me.

Also remember that war's are targeted last, do you really need that shield? Sometimes a decent foci is better than the shield even if you don't meet the req. Having 26(just using the foci I use as an example, I don't meet the req and it still gives me 6 energy) energy and the benefits from the foci, gives you a little bit more energy to work with.

It's already been stated but never use Mending in pvp, ever. You're the last targeted so Mending isn't going to help you until it's too late. Run Strength of Honor instead, best of all since you get targeted last you won't have to worry about reappling it since very few people think to shatter the War.

Or break out of the mold and run a W/N, which is a sustained damage machine. Rigor mortis invalidates Ward against melee in one fell swoop, you use Plague touch to bestow the blindness the ele just put on you, on the enemy war who just ran by you, heading toward your monks. He is now not as happy as he once was since he's swinging at nothing but air, and the ele's confidence that you won't be touching him for 9 seconds is shattered as soon as your axe connects with his face. Weaken Armor then softens him up quite a bit more, ensuring he's ripe for some punishment from Eviscerate and Executioner's Strike. The same works on monks, though once again you're going to need a little love from your necro friend and a little spell called rend. Cast your weaken armor(the 3 second casting time hurts, I admit) as your necro friend blasts the monks enchantments to pieces and swing away. Add a little Frenzy to sweeten the deal.

There's a lot of ways to stop a war, this is very true, but two things separate good players using wars, from bad players who have no clue: the proper application of his/her secondary class and teamwork. If you have those then you can see a war at his peak, posting the highest sustained damage numbers you've ever seen. It's all about knowing how to play, and working together with your team to improve your strengths and limit your weaknesses, noone wins alone.

On a side note a little math adjustment:

25% armor penetration takes 60AL down to 45 not 35. And, not a correction, but here's a hint, any war who knows what the heck he's doing should be running Platemail which is 85 AL, and one piece(gloves) of Ascalon or Knights at his or her discretion(though I gotta say when you combine that with Sup Absorption the -5 dmg is pretty nice).

One more addition, Ranger's and War's aren't even close when it comes to energy. Ranger's get one pip more of regen and start at a base of 25 and what really seals the deal is Expertise, which tosses all Ranger related issues with Energy Management straight to the wayside. Luckily for War's they don't use much energy anyway, since they have no viable way in pvp to get that energy back at a decent rate. Ranger's just stack the necessary points into Expertise and spam away. With the extra pip of regen, along with the higher base pool and skills costing a lot less I doubt a Ranger ever has problems with energy. Warrior's are screwed when it comes to energy, no question, no class has it as bad, which is why you should refrain from using it where possible.

Rigor Mortis isn´t on the elemental for long, if the other team knows waht they are doing. And executioner´s strike and eviscerate is useless with soothing image, which of course can be removed, too!

As far as I know Knights damage reduction only works on the piece of armor not globally for all armor! So no -5 reduction generally, just for the gloves!

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

You know, I'm not even going to respond to guys that dont know how to multiply and add correctly(then make excuses about "its the same number" when they're caught", dont know that AL is calculated by hit locations, still think that every class in the game does more damage than Warriors, still think Hammer+aftershock is a trend, thinks Warriors are meant for tanking in PvP(god help us),think Eles arent balanced because they can do a ranged spell with 25%AP and Warriors are melee and dont have that property which equals auto-imbalance(while ignoring Energy management) and a host of stupid junk that adds up to the combined intellect of a wet tampon. I think we should archive this topic and label it "What happens when you dont know what you're talking about"

also to add, if you want an Effective Warrior build that fits into a Tombs team: Run a Hammer Warrior with Fear Me while being pumped by Dark Fury. Thats a start to something low level but decent.

And this is supposed to be good? Dark Fury with Fear Me? Okay let's see, You gain 1 adrenaline with each hit for 5 seconds... In 5 seconds a hammer warrior swings twice. Well may be more with frenzy. So let's put it at 3. You have about 6 adrenaline give or take... which btw I'm doubtful since your target aren't necesarrily stationary. And if you hadn't noticed as long as your target keeps running away, you'd barely score any hit.

Okay back to the calculation. In every 5 seconds, your ADJACENT enemy lose 3 energy 0_0 is supposed to be a good thing? Adjacent means right next to you, if that monk skitters a bit or anything, they won't lose that energy.

To top it off, every 5 seconds you lose 17% of your health.... do it for 3 seconds... and you'd be costing your monk MORE energy to heal you, than you'd be costing the enemy... =_= Brilliant!!!

And what're you supposed to do if the other team has blind? Or ward against melee? Geo is kinda popular too lately. Since wards don't get removed by spirits... You gonna build up adrenaline through that? To power fear me... lolz

Why not just take in an energy denial mezmer. Ether lord -2 energy degen for 10 seconds. Energy drain, energy tap. And you'd almost completely drain a monk's energy bar.

For that matter a mez/war with channeling probably do more good than fear me =_=...

So your point is muted. In all honesty I can't see one thing that a warrior can do, that the other classes can't do better. Sure a good warrior is better vs. other classes played poorly... but when comparing good warrior vs. say good mezmers, air eles, rangers or etc... warriors just fall short.

Kashrlyyk · Jul 13, 2005, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhydrian

PVP in guildwars is so heavily salnted in favor of casters that its almost pointles to PVP with anything else. As a ranger, a anti-caster build even, I can barely get on even ground with most casters. Ill make a small list of reasons why casters simply need major changes.

1) Caster damage cannot be avoided. Line of sight? who cares a caster can cast spike damage through solid walls or stack so many DOTs you die in seconds, all by simply tabbing around and picking the next poor sucker. As a ranger a supposed anti catser class I have to play hide and seek with casters as they cast thorugh solid objects.

I have to agree here! Casters can cast spells on players, that they do not see! There should be no way to do that! In fact the moment you start casting, you should have a line of sight, even if the target leaves the line the spell should hit! I could live with that, but right now, the game is in favor of casters in that aspect!