Curse

Acan Vishnu · Jul 12, 2005, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Oww.. oww.. my head hurts...

1) Armor class is not cumulative, its a simple thing to find that out on this forum, use the search function. I don't have any idea why you would bother putting that in your post.

2) Those spells have drawbacks, which I notice you neglected to mention, Chain Lightning causes exhaustion and has a 20sec cooldown which ties with Whirlwind as the longest cooldown for attack spells in the air line. Lightning Orb costs 15en which is quite expensive for the damage it does, so using it can hurt you over the duration.

3) Spike builds are one of the easiest to counter, but can be very successful. Its one of those builds that your pretty much gambling on the odds when you use.

4) Just because Principa is right doesn't mean you have to get pouty and make conjecture as to her pesonal preference of team builds... actually, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything at all.

Kishin · Jul 12, 2005, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mulatto

heres your facts

It’s simple, and it works because they are taken advantage of the over powered skills.

with no runes, spells or armor to increase your damage

Chain Lightning - Spell
Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10-82 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration

Lightning Orb - Spell
Lightning Orb flies towards target foe and strikes for 10-82 lightning damage if it hits. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Lightning Strike - Spell
Strike target foe for 5-41 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

% based attacks that means the more armor u have the more it penetrates

if it was cumulative
like a warrior 85x5 = 425 armor.
425 x .25 or (25%) = 106.25 armor penetration.
soo 425 - 106.25 = 318.75

if by location

this whole game runs on armor
its like running out there with your Cuirass off + 1/2 your leggings off

Quick casting Quick recharge. and low enegry

I say u get to know the facts would be 85 x .25.
the numbers are still the same and the effect still the same

And also some one like u shouldnt be a "moderator" because your very one sided. probably get kicked off the post but if your only reply to people is stop whining... then we know u like the spike group because u like how over powered and cheap they really are. dude get a off it

Armor is not cumulative, and most spells auto hit the chest (or legs, if you're running). Anyway, 25% armor penetration gives an 80 AL warrior 60 AL, and a 60 AL caster 35 AL.

And you have probably heard this about 50,000+ times in this thread, but apparently either refuse to or lack the ability to acknowledge it: Protective Spirit is your friend. So is Life Bond, Protective Bond, Ward Against Elements, Ward Against Harm, Mantra of Lightning, Elemental Resistance, etc. etc. etc.
There are dozens of way to minimize air spike, so the only conclusions for you not seeing them/utilizing them are as follows, and right now I'm betting both are true:

1) You're too thick skulled to admit that you're wrong.
2) You're a bad PvP player.

Do your homework.

theclam · Jul 12, 2005, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Not to mention that Fertile Season or Mesmers. Fertile Season will run the Elementalists out of mana before they kill anything. Mesmers will either prevent the Elementalists from casting, or at the very least, disrupt their timing so that your Monks have time to respond.

Every good Tombs group should carry soft counters for all the FotM builds.

Mulatto · Jul 12, 2005, 09:53 PM // 21:53

in short u people make me sick that u want to keep play like this because u been cheesing people of thier wins and learning the game. its sad dude and you r all are sad for supporting it. eles are over powered plan and simple.

acidteardrop · Jul 12, 2005, 10:03 PM // 22:03

80 x .25? That's twenty. That's 75% armour penetration, not 25%. You mean to say "80 x .75", or more accurately (for full mathematical explanation of what's happening), "80 - (80 x .25)." Please learn arithmetic before telling others they can't do math.

If you're complaining about elementalists being overpowered, why aren't you playing one? If you make a PvP only character you're automatically level twenty, so you don't have to play through the whole game again. Or you could play the game differently and run past the mission areas rather than completing them.

It's well known that every build has a counter. So why don't you work on countering what you're complaining about? So there are elementalist spikers. Go R/E, put a ward against elements, grab a storm chaser, and disrupt their attacks (that's a very basic and simple tactic I'm pulling off the top of my head, so don't flame me for it saying I'm a bad PvPer).

Or if you want to be a warrior, there are plenty of warrior counters to elementalists. Play around, look at skills, study them and come up with what works. Or just take a preset build.

<edit> Here's another suggestion: Don't PvP. If you're that upset about it, don't do it, or go to a different game to do it. </edit>

Kishin · Jul 12, 2005, 10:05 PM // 22:05

You can't strip and shatter Wards, and Mantra of Lightning/Elemental Resistance are STANCES.

I'll say it again. There are plenty of counters. You just refuse to acknowledge them.

stumpy · Jul 12, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Mulatto not only do you discredit yourself with your countless spikes and lack of anger management in a 'discussion forum' you do not give proper numbers to back it up. Sure ... that number is the same ... ON ONE TARGET ... now you deal with me and my Studded Leather ... sure I dare ya to spike me ... with 115 armor before any spells your only 50 damage a shot ... it doesn't come down to any of that ... you can tell anybody to STFU... and everybody that they are all idiots ... but a counter can be countered and that chain never ends so its not skills ...
It's coordination.

So I use Mantra on myself and boost my armor up even more ... maybe storm chaser to hunt your littte chicken legs down ... your 50 now became 30 ...

if you strip enchantments guess what ... your not casting lightning, likely will be loaded with mes hexes and tossed in the useless bin for a bit while the next target is hunted ...

what I'm getting at is there is no top dog class ... and yelling like a baby only discredits your own posts and shows your true maturity. I cant believe this topic is still going on.

zorades · Jul 12, 2005, 10:20 PM // 22:20

I usually only read posts, and don't take the time to respond, but when I read a post by someone like Mulatto I feel the need to tell him: "You are a fu***** id**!"

You seen to be a very bad pvp player (otherwise you wouldn't have made those remarks in you posts) and I doubt you are better in pve.

Just go back to whatever game you used to play hours upon hours without any challenge and STFU. It is annoying to me (and probably to others) to read your incoherent and illogical posts.

Please stop posting your opinions if you are incapable of any cohesive thought.

Zorades Zax [PwE]

Kishin · Jul 12, 2005, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mulatto

everybody dont have Mantra of Lightning and even if they did it reduced my 45% 50 if your lucky and want to be an insperationist 140 x.5 = 70

70 x 6 = 420

mesmer will die in 6 hits or everybody targeting him. u can only backfire once. and your telling me the only way to beat an ele is be an ele ( wards). that right there shows they are over powered

I believe I also mentioned Protective Spirit. There's also Spell Breaker, which causes the spells cast at the target to fail (including attempts to remove it).

Or, if you want the Flavor of the Month solution, run a Spirit Spam build.

If Air spikers are so overpowered, why are less and less people using full builds of them? Why aren't the forums flooded with complaints like yours? Perhaps because spike is very much beatable, as evidenced by the fact that they aren't completely and utterly dominating Tombs and GvG.

MegaPsycho · Jul 12, 2005, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Huh? I noly read the first post, but uh, some of the things you said were purely insane. As someone who only uses N/Me for pvp, let me fill you in on a couple of things.

Quote:

Caster damage cannot be avoided. Line of sight? who cares a caster can cast spike damage through solid walls or stack so many DOTs you die in seconds, all by simply tabbing around and picking the next poor sucker. As a ranger a supposed anti catser class I have to play hide and seek with casters as they cast thorugh solid objects.

The reason we play hide and seak is beacuse if we dont hide, we get screwed over by your superior non-mana using direct damage.

I dont know about other N/Me builds, but in my case, any caster or monk that stands in my way is usually raped in a hurry, But the instant a war with speed buffs or cripple or a interupt ranger gets on me in a 1v1 fight, im pretty much screwed. Especially interupt rangers. And choking gas doesnt help my cause either :P

Quote:

And if the developers of the game cared about a enjoyable PVP experience they wouldnt force people to make certain builds.

Okay, this is the one thing you said that actually made sense. For the simple reason that there is way too much cookie-cutter builds plaguing Tomb. And if your not a cookie cutter build, no one in tomb wants you. Im a necro, and no one wants me unless im a death build or curse/death. Irritating. Good lord, when I do actually get into a decent pvp group, my blood/domination build destroys casters like crazy.

Mulatto · Jul 12, 2005, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Air spikers are yes

Air spike groups almost impossible

u act as if its a 1v1 in arenas or somethine.u spit out ways to shut down 1 and only one ele. the fact is u have to beat a group of them. and if u see a group of 1 perfession then that is a clue that something needs to be changed. Protective Spirit can be taken away and so can any other hex put on a ele. backfire only last 10 secs. can not be spammed. un like the spamming air back to back to back since it quick recharge time. and low mana cost. High powered nothing stops and ele from waiting out backfire since I cant put it back on u after it finished. spell braker is an elite only givin to monks and secondary monks. and if u are secondary monk it will only last 5 secs considering u have to option in putting points in Divine Favor. I would love to be a mesmer and interrupt and air spell bu considering u can hit me with a spell before I can backfire u at 12 fast casting I believe the spell time on air spells are a pretty fast. dont think for a second that I havent tried ways with out being an ele to shut them down. when come right down to it u have to be an ele to beat an ele thats BS.

Spirit Spam is a answer to your ele BS. Rangers have armor that protects them from all ele attacks. they can be a secondary ele to make a ward to protect them and on top of that make a lot of spirits to confuse an ele on what hes going to nuke. can't run in there and do earthquake and aftershock BS combo because u will get shot and Distracting Shot to death. u brought the ranger crap upon yourself and they need something done about it.

but dont dare preach that rangers are unfair and eles are balanced because if u do something to the rangers do something with the eles and the other way around. do something with the eles do something with the rangers.

there are 3 perfession u will never see a full team of. mesmer, warrior and necro. because they rely on other perfessions to help them. the others seem like they are one man teams and need to be looked at.

and they are how do u think this thread got started. but considering these forums are strickly one sided and if there is a disagreement some people like to stop the thread.

nobody else will complian since your the only ones that are allowed to say something. new people to the game wont stay for long because of why u do in the tombs and arenas. if u havent realized yet there are less and less people playing and more of the same people playing. if you 200 people want to play the game as is and tell others to go play a different game because it seems that your last resort. they will go play a differnt game and lots of them. but guild wars wants more people to play not less. I'm pretty sure I'll get kicked off the forums because I dont agree with u. like many others before me. but in the end it will be you and the games undoing.

and acidteardrop I was coming up with how much armor u have left not how much armor it takes down. read the whole thing and u will realize my math is right. its like having yaks bend armor on.

Glasswalker · Jul 13, 2005, 12:46 AM // 00:46

I don't know if I'm one of the ones who is allowed to say something, but I'm going to disagree with you. There are tons of teams that are just W/Mo's. They used to be everywhere (ask any of the old folk). And teams of 6 Necros + 2 Monks abound. I've never seen a team of all Mesmers, but now that you bring it up, I'm itching to try it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mulatto

but dont dare preach that rangers are unfair and eles are balanced because if u do something to the rangers do something with the eles and the other way around. do something with the eles do something with the rangers.

Don't do anything to anyone -- that's my take. A well balanced group can take out any of these specialist groups because they are a one trick pony.

If the game spawns, and I see that the enemy are all Elementalists, I know what to do. Same thing if they are all (or almost all) Rangers, or Necros (you forgot about the Bone Horde Build in your little rant).

As a N/R, if I see a balanced team, I start off by trying to kill the Warrior, and condition spam whoever else I can. Then I have to play it by ear to see what their response is. A balanced team can switch tactics, or pull something unexpected, but a specialist group can not. Therefore, in my mind, they are not nearly as dangerous.

BTW, when we run across a group of all elementalists, I pray to god that we have more than one Mesmer on the team. My N/R + 2 good Mesmers and at least 1 res signet (for the Monk they have doubtless targetted) = Dead Air Spikers.

You are of course allowed your opinion, but opinion < fact, and the fact is we've beat these guys. I don't know how to argue against that. Are they tough to beat? Yes, but only if you don't know how to definitively counter them. At that point it's easy.

catharsis · Jul 13, 2005, 12:47 AM // 00:47

For those of us who are just joining the thread, let me summarize Mulatto's arguments, this time with the benefit of grammar and syntax.

a) Air spikers are overpowered because they kill me.
b) I'm right because the forums are one-sided and you're all so totally in awe of my genius that you can't acknowledge my awesome power.
c) The only thing mesmers are capable of - indeed, the ONLY way to stop a spell in general - is Backfire.
d) Spells that rip spike builds to shreds, such as Protective Spirit, are of no use because they can be removed.

So my question to the rest of you is this:

Given arguments a) through d), why the hell are we wasting our time trying to convince this moron of anything?

Nexx · Jul 13, 2005, 12:48 AM // 00:48

The way I see it is this:

If "BALANCE" in guildwar is when a variety of classes come together to make each other better (as each class has a significant weakness)... then is having a large group composed of a single class considered "IMBALANCE"?

[gripe]

Mulatto brought up a great point often not seen by the majority of users here. It's kinda like if you're in charge and have all the power (or rather the influence), wouldn't you want to maintain that power by creating the illusion that everything else is okay? Hegemony anybody?

I see bandwagons on the forum all the time. People don't want to be disliked so they agree with the majority. Some get so caught up in what they have been told that they can't see beyond that perspective... let alone think for themselves. Now, I'm not saying that we're all mindless zombies fighting for social acceptance but I think as smart, video game loving people

we can at least stop and consider why people are making their choices and try to look at the situation from a different angle. We all are posting on this forum because we share something in common, right? If we can come together for the love of one thing, why can't we at least understand each other?

Perhaps I'm looking too deep into the situation. All I'm saying is that it's very hard to find a team with a warrior than it is with a "spiker"... heck, there are times when I don't find a team at all. In one situation, some laughed as two warriors were running around trying to find a team in a sea of r's and e's. But, hey.. I've been told that warriors are balanced in PvP and that everyone just suck at using them. (okay okay.. just me... right?

)

Also, another thing that is bothering me is the whole language issue. I think Mulatto is doing just fine. As long as I can understand what he's trying to say, so be it. To some people, English is not their first language so I say cut him so slack.

Anyways... carry on.

[/gripe]

Mulatto · Jul 13, 2005, 01:14 AM // 01:14

catharsis I didnt know I was writing a term a paper. I'm glad u threw yours in a word doc and spell checked it. I can tell because nobody on the internet puts a : in anything

but other than mocking me u dont have support to tell me air eles are

why can an air ele penetrate 25% every hit and they are ranged and warrior only 16% if u have a dragon helmet and a sup rune on max out str and they are melee

crazyyyyyyyy. Warriors have been nerfed so much its sad to be a warrior in the tomes. unless your an aftershock warrior but that brings me back to the eles again.

I would like to see what Nexx is talking about. variety of classes come together to make each other better. that would be Guild Wars to me anyways

maybe u all like to spam air and spirits and think that your good. Its sad in the least.

spell check that for me

arredondo · Jul 13, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

I dunno. I kinda lean with sympathy towards Warriors at this time. Perhaps they could get a bit of a "game impact" boost. I'm a MeNe and I have less respect for a Warrior than any other class. They aren't worthless. They can be dangerous. No one's saying that they can't kill and destroy when played properly.

However in my admittedly intermediate experience (only playing PvP for a month in Arenas), it seems to me that their abilities aren't as impressive on their own compared to things I've seen from other classes. To me it's their secondary class is what helps keep them semi-relavant in the big picture of things, moreso than any other primary class.

Honestly, I hope to find more expert Warriors out there so I can find out I'm wrong. I love them as teammates since they can stand still as meat sheilds while they attack, but as opponents? As of now, I eat them for breakfast as if they were a bowl of Fruit Loops and I sometimes feel it should be a bit tougher.

Maybe it's because Mesmers have like 50 anti-Warrior skills so my perspective is limited, lol. Again, they are good and plenty of them have bashed my brains in too, but they feel less potent than other primaries IMHO. Maybe I'm completely clueless though. I'll see in a month if I've changed my mind after I gain more experience.

Nexx · Jul 13, 2005, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

As of now, I eat them for breakfast as if they were a bowl of Fruit Loops and I sometimes feel it should be a bit tougher.

Lol. Don't hate with your mesmer skills!!!! You and your mad disrupting, crippening, life draining, and awesome costume skills! I hate you... that's why I play mesmer now too.

don't worry my spiker, still much love for you

Black Raine · Jul 13, 2005, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Alright, so you say air spike is overpowered. Let's take a look at a one counter and that counter's counter.

Protective Spirit- An enchantment spell that causes a target to only be able to lose at the maximum, 10% of their maximum health at one given time.

Okay so this one spell can completely destroy the one prevailing fact of air elementalists- their spike damage.

Since it is an enchantment spell, it can be removed. After it is removed, who's to say it can not be reapplied? You can cast one protective spirit every 6 seconds. It has a 5 second recharge time, a 1/4 second cast time, and the 3/4 second after effect of casting.

Who's to say that there aren't two people with protective spirit? That effectively reduces the recharge time to 3 seconds.

You see, it's not as simple as, "haha n00b j00 put on protective spirit so i remove enchant and then continue pwning j00 with my pwnz0rz spike damage"

There are ways to counter the air spike damage, and there are ways to counter those counters. It's a circular argument.

Let's take a look at the warrior.

Blinding Flash, Ward Against Melee, Aegis, etc. There are many skills to counter the Warrior. The way they do it is either through making the Warrior miss, evade his attack, block his attack, make him attack slower, make him hurt himself, etc.

All of these can be made by:
Stance: can be countered by wildblow
Enchantment: can be removed
Hex: can be removed
Ward: can be countered by Warrior's cunning or Rigor Mortis

If I'm missing anything, I really don't care at this point. The point is, there is a counter to every build and a way to counter that counter. It's all just circular.

Jul 13, 2005, 02:38 AM // 02:38

To even have any credibility on any sense of "balance" in this game, you first need to know what you're talking about and how things work. This thread is, unsurprisingly, full of bullshit and head in ass logic.

I think it needs to be deleted before someone that is completely oblivious to anything starts thinking Tombs PvP=what really goes on in balanced PvP. You've actually got to understand the nature of Tombs and the player base to make a correct assesment. Majority of the posters in this topic dont, and would rather wallow in their own tard logic than to accept the fact that they are wrong.

funbun · Jul 13, 2005, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

this post is a waste. Too much misinformation and no numbers to back up the claims.

I agree. I just had a ranger kick my but in arena. I kick ranger, but at other times. You gotta keep messing around with your build to see what works.