Curse

Zeru · Jul 20, 2005, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

The key to making Battle Rage {E} downright obscene is that it can be kept up constantly...

The moment it starts flickering in your upper left hand display, you can just execute it and you lose all your adrenaline, HOWEVER, you're STILL in double adrenaline mode and sprint buff speed. Meaning, you can literally keep Battle Rage up for as long as there's someone you can hit 2x nearby.

Definitely the best adrenaline vaccuum skill in the game.

Yeah but you can't run frenzy nor sprint with it with it

Very limiting.

PiRaTeKiNg{AnBu} · Jul 20, 2005, 07:29 AM // 07:29

wats a good axe combo?? but IMO i like the sword combo sever artery,gash,galrath,and final thrust it owns alot ^_^ so yea...

Malchiel · Jul 20, 2005, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Yeah but you can't run frenzy nor sprint with it with it

Very limiting.

There's almost no reason to run frenzy or sprint with battle rage.

Zeru · Jul 20, 2005, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Well obviously, that's why I said it (stances cancel and you want BR up a ton).

Frenzy/Sprint are such good things that you must forgoe if you go the route of battle rage though.

Nightwish · Jul 20, 2005, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Well obviously, that's why I said it (stances cancel and you want BR up a ton).

Frenzy/Sprint are such good things that you must forgoe if you go the route of battle rage though.

Battle Rage is able to make up for both of these skills right, isnt it? It takes up the elite slot but saves u an extra slot :P

Kelly · Jul 20, 2005, 09:16 AM // 09:16

persoanly when im deciding, i get Swordsmanchip and strength, so i can still have a sword, shield, and those nifty run spells

Ednemak · Jul 20, 2005, 02:42 PM // 14:42

If you want an honest opinion, and not this constant dmg shit ill give u one

Axes for me, are great in pve. Because in the underworld and fissure and almost 80% of the later enemies in the game cant bleed, if they cant bleed no gash. Thats a problem for swords.

But axes go straight to -20% health and throw in weakness

But if you want straight pvp dmg go sword.

Sever artery cancels mending and will hurt over time if they dont have mending hurts over time, it is usefull. Then a gash, galrath slash, final thrust combo is a great way to put ur enemy down

and like everyone is saying, weakness isnt good against casters anyway

and even if you were fighting a warrior, its going to take more then weakness to beat them

free4all · Jul 20, 2005, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Throwing weakness on a warrior that is chasing your monk helps also.

ICURADik · Jul 20, 2005, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer

How so? At an attack speed of 1.33 and an intake of 2 adrenaline per attack, you would have 10 adrenaline in just about 5 seconds (10.44 adrenaline in 5.22 seconds).

You would have to use cyclone axe twice to do that, and would also have to have at least 5 people around you. The only people that stand around you long enough for you to use cyclone axe twice would be warriors, and I have never faced 5 warriors at once. I dont think anyone has.

Berserker Stance will bring your attack speed from 1.33 to .94. You also gain 1.2 adrenaline per hit for 10 seconds. That means you reach the adrenal max at 6 seconds (10.8 adrenaline in 6.46 seconds.)

So we see that its slower, and once you reach the maximum adrenal amount, you will use a skill, disabling the stance and wasting the other 4 seconds. With FGJ, it will continue to gain adrenaline after you use the skills for another 10 seconds. Its like having two Berserker Stances in a row in terms of adrenal gain.

Battle Rage is a step above these, but I dont quite like the adrenal loss at the end. FGJ does this adrenally, and lets you keep whatever excess is gained afterwards.

I think that should officially bring it to the top of your list now Icuradik.

I was gonna disagree, but a quick look over the skills and they really dont have much in the line of Spike damage like a hammer warrior would have, so in these cases DPS is the only option really.

Being so, I would think sword is a safer route for DPS, but Axe would have more opportunites to inflict conditions while maintaining a fairly close constant damage.

Heh. Guess even after playing all through Beta there is always something new to learn.

So in conclusion (in order of my preference, and what I believe is most efficient):

Hammer = Massive spike damage
Axe = Massive condition DPS with fluctuating attack dmg
Sword = Medium DPS with stable attack damage

FGJ = Max Adrenaline with excess held
Battle Rage = Possible max adrenaline with excess discarded
Berserker Stance = Max adrenaline with no excess
Cyclone Axe = Half adrenaline and very situational

Your still not recognizing the recharge time on FGJ, or the energy cost. And don't forget, Berserker's Stance also gives you more attack speed, not just adrenaline. Run in, Cyclone, hit berserkers stance, and you will have all the adrenaline you need in under 5 seconds to unload your adrenaline skills.

IMO, For Great Justice has it's place on R/W, but Warrior Primaries would do better without it.

noblepaladin · Jul 20, 2005, 04:25 PM // 16:25

In PvE, I find swords better because it tends to be associated with tactics, and tactics usually make good tanks which will get you through missions. Axes tend to be associated with strength, since strength gives you 1%/level whenever you use an attack skill and axes have a ton of attack skills. So use swords to tank and axes for damage. However, note that there are not that many monks in PvE and 90% of the warriors focus on damage rather than tanking, therefore you will probably find that you are extremely essential to your groups survival. Hammers just suck in PvE in the late game because monster's armors/levels become so high that most of the damage comes from bleeding in swords or the +damage from skills and base damage can get as low as single digits. Hammers don't have enough +damage skills. They do own in PvP though since your opponent won't be over level 20 and interrupting/locking them down with knockdown is more important.

Aphy · Jul 20, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Cleave {E} (3A), Dismember (6A deep wound), Axe Rake (6A +dmg if DW and cripple), Axe Twist (8A +dmg DW)

once you get this combo moving its a quick killer, add in swift chop to begin with (5E) and you can do a lot of dmg quickly.

Then you either have a couple more axe skills or some complimentory skills ( interuppt, prot spells, healing ) and you become a bit more of a problem to enemies

Godslayer · Jul 20, 2005, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

The key to making Battle Rage {E} downright obscene is that it can be kept up constantly...

I agree that this is a good skill, and as long as you are only using attack skills its downright deadly. The only problem I have with it is that its Elite, so for Axe Warriors they dont get Cleave or Eviscerate, Hammers dont get Backbreaker, Devastating Hammer or Earthsaker.

So, to me, this is great for a sword warrior, but for everyone else a non-elite adrenal gaining skill would be better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Man

So it takes 6.65 seconds to get 10 adreneline--not 5.

My bad. Its hard to post all this info at work without getting caught =P.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Your still not recognizing the recharge time on FGJ

Lets compare the skills we listed earlier purely form an adrenal gain and cost point of view:

FGJ
Adrenaline: 20 strikes of adrenaline - 10a skill can be used twice in 12 seconds.
Recharge: 45 seconds (30 seconds actual wait time)
Energy: 10

Cyclone Axe
Adrenaline: Dependent on number of enemies standing together.
Recharge: 4 seconds
Energy: 5

Berserker Stance
Adrenaline: 10 strikes of adrenaline - 10a skill can only be used once.
Recharge: 30 seconds (24 seconds actual wait time)
Energy: 5

Battle Rage
Adrenaline: 25 strikes of adrenaline (and potentially more) - 10a skill can be used twice (or more if continued)
Recharge: 4a
Energy: n/a

So I can agree that battle rage is very very efficient if you are damaging via attack skills. Its the lowest cost, with the highest turnout. Perfect for a sword warrior as they dont have very impressive elites under swordmanship.

Your combo of Cyclone Axe/Berserker Stance is horrible honestly. It relies on the enemies being close together, costs 10 energy, and takes up two skill slots. The most you can hope for using those two skills together is 10 adrenaline before you would have to wait another 24 seconds, just to get 10 more adrenaline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

For Great Justice has it's place on R/W, but Warrior Primaries would do better without it.

Are you sure? Lets use my build for example:

Generally, FGJ will get me 10 adrenaline in 8 seconds. Thats 5 swings doing 30 or so dmg a swing to war or ran, 50+ to all others.

Use backbreaker for 21dmg.

Cast aftershock for 85dmg +56 for knocked down foes.

FGJ still running, I will get about 6-8 adrenaline (3-4 swings) towards backbreaker before it ends, and in two more swings can do another backbreaker/aftershock.

Grand Total Damage to Warriors or Rangers (roughly): 624dmg
Grand Total Damage to Casting Classes (roughly): 824dmg

Now of course thats potentially. Factoring in healing and defensive skills that may lower my damage it doesnt quite turn out this way. The average warrior or ranger from my PvP experiences will be down to 1/4th health, but the caster classes are usually killed instantly.

War/Ele. I wouldnt be able to pull that off with any of the other adrenal skills, especially Berserker Stance.

Racthoh · Jul 20, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

The key to making Battle Rage {E} downright obscene is that it can be kept up constantly...

The moment it starts flickering in your upper left hand display, you can just execute it and you lose all your adrenaline, HOWEVER, you're STILL in double adrenaline mode and sprint buff speed. Meaning, you can literally keep Battle Rage up for as long as there's someone you can hit 2x nearby.

Definitely the best adrenaline vaccuum skill in the game.

I do have one problem with Battle Rage, and if it didn't have this slight drawback it would be on my skillbar.

"Battle Rage ends when you use a non-attack skill. When Battle Rage ends, you lose all adrenaline"

You can't constantly keep it up and spam adrenaline skills constantly. Once you put a fresh Battle Rage up, you lose all Adrenaline and have to start over. It is a major pain when you're so close to charging a Final Thurst and it wears off.

Phades · Jul 20, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Last time i ran my warrior, i had a little fun using "For great justice" with battle rage at the same time. The buildup was always nice even though i didnt have any attack speed boosts going on. The real downside was i wasnt able to use eliete attack skills, refresh "for great justice" or any utility skill without risking the loss of the run speed boost. It always made me have a single tear whenever i saw someone drop a block/evade skill down forcing me over into a cunning stance so i could continue hitting reliably.

ICURADik · Jul 20, 2005, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer

I agree that this is a good skill, and as long as you are only using attack skills its downright deadly. The only problem I have with it is that its Elite, so for Axe Warriors they dont get Cleave or Eviscerate, Hammers dont get Backbreaker, Devastating Hammer or Earthsaker.

So, to me, this is great for a sword warrior, but for everyone else a non-elite adrenal gaining skill would be better.

My bad. Its hard to post all this info at work without getting caught =P.

Lets compare the skills we listed earlier purely form an adrenal gain and cost point of view:

FGJ
Adrenaline: 20 strikes of adrenaline - 10a skill can be used twice in 12 seconds.
Recharge: 45 seconds (30 seconds actual wait time)
Energy: 10

Cyclone Axe
Adrenaline: Dependent on number of enemies standing together.
Recharge: 4 seconds
Energy: 5

Berserker Stance
Adrenaline: 10 strikes of adrenaline - 10a skill can only be used once.
Recharge: 30 seconds (24 seconds actual wait time)
Energy: 5

Battle Rage
Adrenaline: 25 strikes of adrenaline (and potentially more) - 10a skill can be used twice (or more if continued)
Recharge: 4a
Energy: n/a

So I can agree that battle rage is very very efficient if you are damaging via attack skills. Its the lowest cost, with the highest turnout. Perfect for a sword warrior as they dont have very impressive elites under swordmanship.

Your combo of Cyclone Axe/Berserker Stance is horrible honestly. It relies on the enemies being close together, costs 10 energy, and takes up two skill slots. The most you can hope for using those two skills together is 10 adrenaline before you would have to wait another 24 seconds, just to get 10 more adrenaline.

Are you sure? Lets use my build for example:

Generally, FGJ will get me 10 adrenaline in 8 seconds. Thats 5 swings doing 30 or so dmg a swing to war or ran, 50+ to all others.

Use backbreaker for 21dmg.

Cast aftershock for 85dmg +56 for knocked down foes.

FGJ still running, I will get about 6-8 adrenaline (3-4 swings) towards backbreaker before it ends, and in two more swings can do another backbreaker/aftershock.

Grand Total Damage to Warriors or Rangers (roughly): 624dmg
Grand Total Damage to Casting Classes (roughly): 824dmg

Now of course thats potentially. Factoring in healing and defensive skills that may lower my damage it doesnt quite turn out this way. The average warrior or ranger from my PvP experiences will be down to 1/4th health, but the caster classes are usually killed instantly.

War/Ele. I wouldnt be able to pull that off with any of the other adrenal skills, especially Berserker Stance.

The difference is that Cyclone and berserker's actually add damage. So you are conserving skills slots, not wasting them.

Godslayer · Jul 21, 2005, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

The difference is that Cyclone and berserker's actually add damage. So you are conserving skills slots, not wasting them.

At an adrenal standpoint, no.

At a damage standpoint, its still no.

All you're getting form cyclone axe is an additional +10 dmg. Its below par for adrenaline, and below par for damage when any other axe skill can get 20-32dmg.

Berserker Stance will give you a slightly better DoT with your attacks, but only for as long as it is up, which will be 6 seconds. Not really a big DoT increase if you ask me.

ICURADik · Jul 21, 2005, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer

At an adrenal standpoint, no.

At a damage standpoint, its still no.

All you're getting form cyclone axe is an additional +10 dmg. Its below par for adrenaline, and below par for damage when any other axe skill can get 20-32dmg.

Berserker Stance will give you a slightly better DoT with your attacks, but only for as long as it is up, which will be 6 seconds. Not really a big DoT increase if you ask me.

Lol. Not quite. Use them first and get back to me.

Godslayer · Jul 21, 2005, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Lol. Not quite. Use them first and get back to me.

Care to elaborate how its "not quite"?

Cyclone Axe (availability) - (5,0,4) Perform a spinning axe attack striking for +10 damage to all adjacent opponents.

Berserker Stance (availability) - (5,0,30) For 10 seconds, you attack 33% faster than normal and gain 20% more adrenaline each time you hit in melee. Berserker Stance ends if you use a skill.

First lets analyze Cyclone Axe. The adrenal gain is so random. It could be one, it could be 5, it could be 10. Lets be realistic. It will most likely be 2, maybe 3 if your lucky to have that many people around you. So you hit them all right? Lets assume you are hitting for 26 damage. Add 10 so now you hit for 36 damage to all three characters.

Your team is most likely focusing attack on one or two characters, so you just did 36 damage to one, which is an ok attack. The rest of them however are not attacked further, so whats the point of doing the 36 damage to them if they will just regen the hp loss on their own if they are not being attacked by anything but your cyclone axe. Not a skill you should bring into PvP IMO.

Now lets look at Berserker Stance. Its been shown that alone you will only be using 6 of those 10 seconds on its own. Combine that with Cyclone Axe (and lets assume you actually did manage to get 5 people together) you will only need 5 more adrenaline to max out, which will be done in 4 seconds. So not only did you waste 6 seconds of potential adrenaline gain, you also spent the same amount of energy as FGJ, at almost the same recharge, and you got less than half the adrenaline of what FGJ could have gotten you.

I dont see how thats "not quite". Thanks for that informative reply though.

sandman1 · Jul 22, 2005, 07:16 AM // 07:16

im no pvp expert but i fail to see how useful cyclone axe is useful in pvp unles your a w/r poison+cyclone axe combo

i prefer the axe over swd imho, use a furious upgrade on your axe

battle rage is great for a measly 4 adrealine
it adds double adrealine+25% speed with a higher str attri battle rage lasts quite abit saving a slot for sprint
even if im unable to kill the monk outright , im still doing my *job of occupying his attention or that of another monk(who is healing the monk i targeted) and 80% of monks normally run away thus slowing him down from healing his teammates
just my 2cents worth

Doomlord_Slayermann · Jul 22, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Its a draw. My pref is the sword for
1) Final Thrust (cause in PvP this is a very difficult dmg spike to counter)
2) Energy/Adr balance. Axe is almost all adr, while sword is more balanced, allowing for
more skill usage

But whatever. Just make sure to focus on one and not go somewhere in the middle. And yeah, this includes ur 2ndary class.