Curse

DismalClown · May 17, 2005, 01:37 AM // 01:37

I have my new Mo/Me up to level 10 now and I think I'm officially dropping my Me/N. The only drawback so far is the my solo PvE builds are drastlcaly different from my group PvE builds (because I have to make up for the lack of damage from the mercs), so I have to watch my refund points.

And I am having less luck in the level 10 arena then I did with my Me/N. I think it's because when there is a pure healer on the team therefore one less person doing damage, people have to really focus on one target more and it's very hard to get those level 10 teams to work together.

Kershent · May 17, 2005, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

The thing with that is, backfire doesn't do wonders in PvP like it does against PvE casters. The mesmer is pretty much known for his backfire, so anyone who's hit by it will run away and avoid it. Same with empathy. It's good if you want to disable people, but you need a finisher, something with hefty damage. A Me/N is perfectly suited to crippling, weakening, draining and disabling an enemy, but this all depends on them standing there and taking it. If they play it smart and avoid combat/casting/ break the hexes, its back to square one. Especially in the arena, you really need some sort of instant damage, and that's where the Me/N combo is somewhat lacking.

The thing you're assuming is that all Mesmers use Backfire. I dropped it ages ago for PvP, and have never looked back. Reason? Dealing damage is NOT what a Mesmer does. The rest of the team can deal damage all they want, but I'm going to prevent the enemy from doing damage. THAT'S what Mesmers do. If they "play it smart" and avoid combat and casting, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

Red Locust · May 17, 2005, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kershent

The thing you're assuming is that all Mesmers use Backfire. I dropped it ages ago for PvP, and have never looked back. Reason? Dealing damage is NOT what a Mesmer does. The rest of the team can deal damage all they want, but I'm going to prevent the enemy from doing damage. THAT'S what Mesmers do. If they "play it smart" and avoid combat and casting, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

Well, I was referring to the person who was using backfire with his mesmer, but ok. Funny you should say you're mainly focused on preventing the enemy from doing damage: 100+ dmg from backfire for every spell cast is a hell of an incentive to stop casting spells, and most people do. It effectively stops casters from casting for its 10s duration, making it a very good shutdown spell. I would always bring it with me if I was focusing on shutting casters down.

stdwnbtch · Jul 16, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Mesmers are great team players for putting enemy characters on lockdown and keeping them out of the fight. With skills like Power Drain, Power spike, and Backfire, monks can be taken care of in a matter of 10 seconds, which most people will agree... we all hate enemy monks. The necro skills are a great compliment to the mesmer skills.... specifially Illusion magic. Im not entirely sure of the skill name but Necros have the skill that is basically Conjure Phantasm but with an area effect instead and giving all enemies in the area health degen of 6.... I have yet to fight a lvl 20 mesmer in the high PVP arenas that doesnt know how to CONTROL the other team and basically force them to play how they would like them to. Mesmers are great at this with their domination magic... and honestly they are a great primary pro for any character combo, especially with their fastcasting, and i u doint belive go build a pvp mesmer and throw at least 10 points into fastcasting and go see what you can do with interupt spells.

catharsis · Jul 17, 2005, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

It effectively stops casters from casting for its 10s duration, making it a very good shutdown spell.

Except that the very first thing that happens when a caster gets backfired is they ctrl-click it and let their entire team know. Then, unless your team is absolutely hopeless, the hex gets dispelled or a protective spirit robs backfire of all of its effectiveness. It's a good skill, and there are ways of making the best of it - hex stacking or good timing - but pretty much everybody sees it coming.

I'm looking for a replacement for backfire, and I think Blackout would be more useful - although a little dicier since it locks YOUR skills.. Good team communication is a must for that one.

Also, I've been playing with Guilt and Shame as part of a more energy denial-focused build .. they can come in handy sometimes.. Steal some energy back and cause a spell to fail. Can't hurt. I wish there was a somewhat more spammable version, though, because recycle times are nasty - and a good opponent would probably be smart enough to waste a spammable and cheap spell like Flare or Orison, so the interruption isn't as useful as it could be.

QuixotesGhost · Jul 17, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Yeah that's true enough, I had a hell of a time finishing off people, I'd get 'em down to 10% health or something and have to chase 'em down while they kept healing. The only good ways to do damage are using another second profession like elementist, using moves like power-spike and actually catch them in the act of casting, or casting a hex (like say, conjure phantasm), and then follow through with shatter delusions right at the end by removing the hex yourself near it's end while adding more damage.

Other than those (and none are amazing strong) you're stuck as a support character and just hope your team can finish what you started.

Personally I like Shatter Enchantment for this purpose becuase enchanments will start going up on the called target when he starts getting focused fired and being able to throw an instant ~100 spike that guys way PLUS removing whatever the monk was trying to save him with is a great way to hasten that guys demise. And it's always fun to use it to kill those W/Mos who sprint in circles at the end of games with healing breeze or mending.

arredondo · Jul 17, 2005, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kershent

The thing you're assuming is that all Mesmers use Backfire. I dropped it ages ago for PvP, and have never looked back. Reason? Dealing damage is NOT what a Mesmer does. The rest of the team can deal damage all they want, but I'm going to prevent the enemy from doing damage. THAT'S what Mesmers do. If they "play it smart" and avoid combat and casting, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

What do Mesmers do? Whatever the creative and skilled player can get of of his character, skills, and equipment, THAT'S what Mesmers do. Regardless of what class you PvP'ers reading this like to play, please don't let arbritrary ceilings keep you from maximizing the possibilities in your build.

There's only one goal shared by all... defeating the other side. For the Mesmer, whether that comes about through energy denial, skill interruption, damage dealing, teammate buffing, opponent debuffing, some of the above, all of the above, or something else altogether different - as long as it works to consistently help you win, that's all that counts.

That doesn't mean that you can slap any skills together and call it an effective build, because in the end, as I said, only results count. Prove what is and not possible to yourself before you decide what you are and aren't capable of doing. The best route towards acheiving those results should be limited by your creativeness in designing your ideal character/team build for your next match - not arbitrary "you can't do that" PvP urban legends.

Icarium · Jul 17, 2005, 10:20 PM // 22:20

to the OP i was finding the same thing . . from lvl 15-18 my mes/nec was really lacking . . missions were frustrating, and it didnt seem like i could really do a whole lot. However, once you get past ascention, and get to thunderhead keep and beyond, the skills that make those 2 classes "powerful" really come out, Now im facing the problem of refining my build , as it seems there are way to many options . i really think that given the GW population to evolve a bit, Mes/X will be the new air ele's :P

arredondo · Jul 17, 2005, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

The thing with that is, backfire doesn't do wonders in PvP like it does against PvE casters. The mesmer is pretty much known for his backfire, so anyone who's hit by it will run away and avoid it. Same with empathy. It's good if you want to disable people, but you need a finisher, something with hefty damage. A Me/N is perfectly suited to crippling, weakening, draining and disabling an enemy, but this all depends on them standing there and taking it. If they play it smart and avoid combat/casting/ break the hexes, its back to square one. Especially in the arena, you really need some sort of instant damage, and that's where the Me/N combo is somewhat lacking.

The Me/Ne is PERFECTLY suited for exactly what you are asking for. Backfire is indeed a great skill when properly used. You can do tons of damage with the MeNe class combo, sometimes killing healthy opponents in under 10 seconds. ALLLLLLL those myths people like to spout about what you can and cannot do or use just limits your potential if you accept what they say.

You want people to cast during Back Fire to get its damage to work? You have ten seconds before it ends to use Wastrel's Worry three times. Some characters can avoid using spells if they have stances on them (another mesmer) but most casters will eat damage either way.

You have problems with people removing your Back Fire hex? Do what i do and your problem will be managble in most situations. As long as you have decent Fast Cast points, you should be able to get BF off in 2 seconds or so. With that in mind, I cast Backfire while a caster is busy casting their spell, so they can't instantly dispell mine.

Now, with Back Fire applied, you can either A) cast Diversion to protect it (Domination hex) so they can't use that hex remover again for up to a minute (L16) AND they take Backfire damage for trying, or B) you can cover it with Phantom Pain, which will degen for -3 if left on, but if theuy remove it they will take huge Backfire damage (147 points at L16) and they trigger PP's Deep Wound Condition which causes another 100 point hit if they have 500 max health. That's 50% damage altogether!

So they don't have/use a hex remover? Cast a bunch of Wastrel Worry's for good damage until you remove PP yourself with Shatter Delusions. Big, life threatning damage. Cast Fragility early, then after you Shatter PP for the Deep Wound, sprinkle some Virulence on them... I've caused more quick deaths than I can count.

While they are waiting out the damaging spell hexes on them, rush in with your Illusionary Weapon+Flurry and slice them down at 47 DPS... yet another, consistent 10 seconds or less killer setup.

I'll sometimes open up all these hexes with Soul Barbs for ridiculous steady damage with Wastrel Worry casting on a Back Fired enemy. Then polish them off with Feast of Corruption (or two FoCs with Archane Echo if needed). Every match I look around and I see dead people. These are all devastaingly killer setups if they came from any class, let alone the soft, squishy Mesmer. 10-15 seconds of work and almost any class is dead without healing help... and even faster if they cast through the Back Fire or if you have teammate assistance.

Any build has defenses, so don't be lame in pointing out weaknesses until you name a build that HAS no weaknesses. We are just exploring options here with my fellow Mesmers. There are many more rtechniques and setups waiting to be discovered.

And that's just if you want to be a straight up killer. Other team roles are out there for you to excel at as well if you take the time to study, plan and read up on the latest discoveries. Don't let anyone tell you what you can and can not do. Create a build for the team's needs, but if they need you to cut someone down you are definately capable of doing so.

[email protected] · Jul 18, 2005, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Me/N

Idea behind the following build is to Fast-Cast curses on single or multiple opponents. If you could stack on a single opponent, the degen would be very high (-9 for 12 seconds and -4 for over 20 seconds). Your energy should be very high in the 70's.

Fast Casting: 11+1
Curses: 8
Illusion: 11+1

Mantra of Recovery {E},
For 5-17 seconds, spells you cast recharge 50% faster;

Parasitic Bond (Curses-Hex),
For 20 seconds, target foe suffers Health degeneration of 1. The caster is healed for 30-102 Health when Parasitic Bond ends; (Cast time <= 1, Recharge <=2)

Faintheartedness (Curses-Hex),
For the next 5-29 seconds, target foe attacks 50% slower, and that foe suffers health degeneration of 1-3; (Cast time <= 1, Recharge <=2)

Conjure Phantasm (Illusion-Hex),
For 2-12 seconds, target foe experiences health degeneration of 5; (Cast time <= 1, Recharge <= 2.5 with mantra)

Shadow of Fear (Curses-Hex),
Target foe and all adjacent foes attack 50% slower for the next 20-39 seconds.

Sympathetic Visage (Illusion-Enchantment),
For 8-18 seconds, whenever target ally is hit by a melee attack, all nearby foes lose all adrenaline and 3 energy;

Another Enchantment or Hex
A Signet

Your healing depends on parasitic bond. There are two empty skill slots above and 9 left over attributes. You may throw in a touch blinding or slowing spell. Once you have parasitic bonds on a few players, Hit mantra of recovery and cast conjure phantasm which is fairly strong with a -5 degen over 12 seconds. Shadow of fear and Sympathetic visage is to to keep the warriors at bay and can be cast on the front lines.

Theres plenty of room to adjust this build since there 2 spots left over for skills already. Stick with the primary class's attribute, here it's fast casting.

Also consider:

Mantra of Persistence-
For 30..78 seconds, any Illusion Magic Hex you cast lasts 20..84% longer;
instead of the Elite Mantra of Recovery.

That will free up an elite spot at the expense of Conjure Phantasms recharge.

If this was used you'd be looking at -9 degen for 24 seconds. Fast cast means this is quick casting too, you could have -9 degen for 24 sec on a single target in <10 seconds. Also theres play for multiple target casting too.

David Lionmaster · Jul 18, 2005, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Me/N are awesome in pvp, they can shutdown basically anything. ive seen a team of 3 Mesmers and 1 monk own.

ShadowWrath · Jul 18, 2005, 08:57 PM // 20:57

In my opinion, Mesmers are better as a secondary. I don't see Fast Casting as very useful, I would make an E/Me and get energy storage and mesmer stuff.

BurningPants · Jul 18, 2005, 09:23 PM // 21:23

I have a Me/N myself at 20 and it works very nicely in PvP but also in PvE. I mostly use blood and illusion and using Illusion its so easy to ruin any warrior using crippling anguish. Pile on top of that conjure phantasm and thats 8 arrows of degen while hes limping. If he has a remove hex, just take along some more degen like phantom pain or life transfer, or you can go with a life transfer/imagined burden combo.

As for casters, a few points in domination doesnt hurt what with backfire. You could also use some enfeebling blood and conjure phantasm/phantom pain to keep them down and follow it up with some inspiration for nrg theft. Vampiric Gaze/Touch is a nice finisher when it comes down to the wire. If you are having trouble getting the damage snowballing try Greneths balance and let them hit you and waste their energy, and when your low enough use it and just use life siphon to finish the caster off.

As for PvE Me/N is great support with Blood is Power or even Blood Ritual, monks love both of these. Taking out melee monsters is easy with sig of midnight, price of failure, mark of failure and empathy which will cause most melee to fall pretty quickly. As for the casters just mind wrack and steal mana and throw in a few wrist cutter spells for the added dmg and you should be fine.

Never ever declare any class better than any other class, cause chances are, each one has some really unique combo.

Scaphism · Jul 18, 2005, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Who is practicing thread necromancy?
::stares at stdwnbtch::

Seriously though, this wasn't a strategy discussion to begin with. Turn it into one in a hurry or let it die again.

silvertemplar · Jul 18, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Well I am really liking my N/Me build thus far, never really run out of energy and if nothing else, it looks funny in PvP when the other team is dead and you've got 6 bone fiends standing around you. And I can't tell you how many times I've been saved when the bone horrors took the hits instead of me.

huh? What's so cool about N/Me that you can't do FASTER as a Me/N ? I have my Me/N at lvl 20, but mainly PvE'd with it. I basically pumped everything into Fast Casting and focused all the rest on Necro stuff [didn't even bother with mesmer stuff only inspiration when i ran into energy problems]. I cast Deathly Swarm so fast i actually hear that whining sound NONSTOP, nevermind that i actually feel comfortable just raising minions in the middle of combat instead of afterwards :P

Cunning · Jul 20, 2005, 03:57 AM // 03:57

A nice healing technique I use for my Me/N is to cast Parasitic bond on every enemy in range (takes 1/4 second to cast and 2 secs to recharge, with 5nrg), after 20 seconds or when an enemy dies I'm healed for 84 health from each one.

Because of the fast casting time I can also use it just before an enemy dies and recieve almost immediate health.

Also, why hasn't anyone mentioned Arcane Theivery? This is one of the best ways to piss off your enemy, because not only can they not use the spell you stole, but you can use it against them.

Fanta · Jul 20, 2005, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Me/N is a great combo in PvP, shuttingdown and removing enchants work extremely well together. I say you stick with this character

Phades · Jul 20, 2005, 11:23 AM // 11:23

I think with skills like guilt, shame, diversion, and even backfire, end up being spells that cause the greatest impact when slipped in durring a time when the casting is needed the most. Easier to achieve against slower cast spells from a necro or elementalist source, but possible. I think alot of those skills, while not neccacarially totally shutting someone down, are things that can be the nudge that forces a change in tactics or creates a period of inactivity breaking up a possible stalemate in just a different way than blackout does. They can be viewed in a similar way to the "power" line of spells, but requiring less precice timing.

Vorlin · Jul 20, 2005, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by catharsis

Except that the very first thing that happens when a caster gets backfired is they ctrl-click it and let their entire team know. Then, unless your team is absolutely hopeless, the hex gets dispelled or a protective spirit robs backfire of all of its effectiveness. It's a good skill, and there are ways of making the best of it - hex stacking or good timing - but pretty much everybody sees it coming.

If the Backfire target has to ctrl-click then wait for a dispel, and a teammate has to stop what they are doing to cast the dispel, then you've effectively tied up -2- opponents with one spell cast. Maybe not for as long as you'd like, but definitely for several seconds.

Like many have said here, the primary purpose of a Mesmer is to disrupt the other team. If you get them healing your spells or running from them instead of casting/meleeing your team then you've accomplished your goal.

Malis Darkstar · Jul 21, 2005, 10:34 PM // 22:34

An N/Me has the Soul Reaping, which means (for me anyway) mana is almost never a concern so long as I am doing my job right. Faster casting is nice, but once I drop the first opponent, things only get worse and worse for the opposing team.

I prefer to not waste my time with things like backfire and just go straight in for the kill. Not many people can survive with the kind of health degen a well-played N/Me can drop on them, especially if you combine it with things like Soul Barbs, Fragility, and FoC.