Curse

Neo-LD · Jul 19, 2005, 11:52 AM // 11:52

When a monk runs low on energy, it dies. Therein loies the problem I seek to overcome, for I do not wish to run out of energy so quickly. This is actually fairly easy for some monks, using energy drain or offering of blood to keep their energy up, but for a monk using both healing and prot (like the arena-focused monk Im building) taking a 4th attribute for those is not feasable. So how do I get more energy? So far, all I can think of is Peace and Harmony,, which isnt that great and can be dispelled anyways. There is also Signet of Devotion, which allow me to heal without losing energy. I guess there is also Divine Spirit, but the loooong cooldown is a real turnoff. Blessed Signet only works if you use enchants, whcih I dont.

Ideas?

rii · Jul 19, 2005, 12:08 PM // 12:08

If you have df, healing and prot then peace and harmony is the best bet really.
Aside from that, you can run something like balthazars spirit, and then essence bond.... but they require certain cirsumstances... although arena they often occur. Running both pah and one of these two could also work.... if you cant play to the secondary then thats really all there is...

Drausius · Jul 19, 2005, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

When a monk runs low on energy, it dies. Therein loies the problem I seek to overcome, for I do not wish to run out of energy so quickly. This is actually fairly easy for some monks, using energy drain or offering of blood to keep their energy up, but for a monk using both healing and prot (like the arena-focused monk Im building) taking a 4th attribute for those is not feasable. So how do I get more energy? So far, all I can think of is Peace and Harmony,, which isnt that great and can be dispelled anyways. There is also Signet of Devotion, which allow me to heal without losing energy. I guess there is also Divine Spirit, but the loooong cooldown is a real turnoff. Blessed Signet only works if you use enchants, whcih I dont.

Ideas?

And therein lies the tradeoff of specc'ing solely in healing, prot and DF. Aside from the skills you've listed (blessed signet, p&h) there really isn't a way around this problem. My suggestion: pick prot. or healing, and spec another professions skills (offering of blood for instance) and find another monk for your team. 8 people is a bit much for one monk to protect AND heal for in any situation.

Badenstein · Jul 19, 2005, 12:35 PM // 12:35

There are a few Monk spells that allow you to gain energy. I can't remember them, you can look them up in the skills list. Essence Bond gives you back energy. Balthazar's Spirit gives you Adrenaline and Energy. You say you don't need adrenaline, but the energy part still works. Also, look up your secondary skills. Mesmers have Energy Tap. Necros have Offering of Blood. There are other skills with other professions, a little research will help you find them. Also, I am learning the timing of healing. Rather than keeping the person at 100% health, my goal is to keep them at 50% - 75%. They are still alive, just not at 100% and that way my energy lasts longer. Also, I am switching to lower cost healing spells. Most of the ones I use only cost 5 to cast.

mamluk · Jul 19, 2005, 12:52 PM // 12:52

In arena, as opposed to GvG or HoH, the team size is 4v4 and decent teams are more likely to go for the monk first.

With this in mind, ways to conserve your health by limited damage will then be things to conserve your energy, things such as armor of earth or shield of regeneration or mark of protection.

Your sources of damage most frequently will come from two sources- elementalists and warriors. Of course you will get necros with life transfer or memsers backfiring you, but in most random arena rounds, you will face many more warriors or elementalists.

With warriors, using balthazer's spirit and essence bond means that you will usually have more than enough energy to heal their damage and help your teammates.

With elementalists, they will trigger balthazer spirit, but since their damage is of greater damage and fewer 'shots', you wont be getting back as much energy as you need to heal their damage. Protection spells are really useful here- protective spirit and reversal of fortune. With these, you can usually limit their damage enough until they run out of steam.

So, in arena 4v4, especially random arena, monks usually work best focusing on healing and protection and divine favour with something like balthazer spirit and or essense bond and a few points put into an attribute that has spells that are efficient at low ranks, such as armor of earth or one of the mesmer stances from the inspiration line.

If you get a mesmer or ranger who decide to take your energy (energy tap or debilitating shot echoed are both really nasty) then you are going to have energy problems and you can't avoid that, either the rest of your team can take them down or you might just have to restart with a new team. Since there is no way to cover all the bases with 4v4, you just have to cross your fingers and hope you don't meet a team that is designed to take your team apart

Schorny · Jul 19, 2005, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamluk

Since there is no way to cover all the bases with 4v4, you just have to cross your fingers and hope you don't meet a team that is designed to take your team apart

It is possible and not that hard. It is just more real-time strategy that is needed. A memser can shut you down, so take the mesmer first down. If there are 2 shutdowners, you can easily outdamage them etc. Sometimes you have to sacrify one player to win.

I personally don't think that one should go Protection AND Healing, one is enough, but max it out. So you can take some usefull skills from your second profession.

Indeed most teams go for the monk first, and that is their weak spot

SoTzuMe · Jul 19, 2005, 01:20 PM // 13:20

It's foolish to go prot and heal and expect the wider range of skills to make up for a lack of energy management, period. Your best and only bet is to load up on 5 energy skills -- if you alternate between two 5 energy skills at a moderate pace, you should be able to sustain heals indefinately with your base energy regen. For instance, Orison and Reversal could be sustained, though not without some moderation in your casting times. The problem is, with a scheme like this you won't be able to outheal any sort of focus fire damage.

Energy management IS healing, embrace it and prosper. Neglect it and die.

mamluk · Jul 19, 2005, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoTzuMe

It's foolish to go prot and heal and expect the wider range of skills to make up for a lack of energy management, period. Your best and only bet is to load up on 5 energy skills -- if you alternate between two 5 energy skills at a moderate pace, you should be able to sustain heals indefinately with your base energy regen. For instance, Orison and Reversal could be sustained, though not without some moderation in your casting times. The problem is, with a scheme like this you won't be able to outheal any sort of focus fire damage.

Energy management IS healing, embrace it and prosper. Neglect it and die.

Your post doesn't make much sense. First you say it is foolish to go both prot and healing and then you suggest alternating between reversal and orison. Maybe you don't play monk that much?

You might want to revise that to say orison and dwayna's kiss or word of healing. However, you won't be able to handle any decent sort of focus fire at all- most likely, your ally will be dead and you will be at half energy. Not good.

Not being able to handle any sort of focus fire makes you a poor monk.

Healing is great and very useful, but for energy management, protection is more efficient, for example, reversal of fortune prevents and heals. Against a 100 point lightning spell, a reversal could easily negate that, whereas a 66 point orison wouldn't. Divine favour bonuses being equal in both cases.

mamluk · Jul 19, 2005, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

It is possible and not that hard. It is just more real-time strategy that is needed. A memser can shut you down, so take the mesmer first down. If there are 2 shutdowners, you can easily outdamage them etc. Sometimes you have to sacrify one player to win.

I personally don't think that one should go Protection AND Healing, one is enough, but max it out. So you can take some usefull skills from your second profession.

Indeed most teams go for the monk first, and that is their weak spot

First off- when I say cover all your bases, I was referring to a build for arena 4v4 and specifically random arenas. You ARE going to have weak spots in both your specific build and in your overall. There simply isnt enough space on the skill bar or attribute points to be able to effectively meet all opposition. If there was, then not only would most people run these builds, but others would design build to specifically take them out. Ever build has a weak spot, there are no uber godly builds, etc.

As for who to take out first, well that is a seperate issue from builds, but as a general rule you will want to hit the oppenents who are most dangerous to your team first. Sometimes that can be chewing up a mesmer, other times it can be as simple as just absorbing all the big hits from the elementalists and then worrying about killing them.

As for running protection and healing that doesnt mean you cant have some points for a secondary attribute. You don't have to max out both healing and protection. Like I said earlier, you can use skills that are still effective from another class that don't require a lot of points. Mesmer stances are good examples of this. Hex breaker or mantra of flame or whatever.

A lot more can be said about attribute distribution, but if you are going to max out a monk attribute, you would be best off if that is divine favour, which is actually more efficient for healing than the rate that healing increases, plus it is more versatile. Ultimately at the margins, a difference of 3 points of health in a heal is not usually worth the huge amount of attribute points to spend when they could be put into another attribute for a splash of a useful skill.

Getting back to energy management- you will get outdamaged if you are trying to use solely healing to keep someone alive when faced with 3 or 4 oppenents focusing. This is where protection spells provide huge mana efficiencies- reversal of fortune or protective spirit can negate far more damage than a single orison compared to reversal or two orisons compared to a protective spirit. Note that they can, that doesn't mean that they will always. Hence using both makes you more well rounded for ARENA.

Also, the protection style monks you see in 8v8 battles with their life bonds and blessed signets, these don't do to well in arena. Try it and see. Who cares if you have life bonded your teammates when all your opponents are doing is hitting you? And blessed signets takes ages to use, you can die by the time that it finishes.

Ultimately, arena is a great place to muck around and try out different builds. But to ignore the huge differences between it and GvG or HoH if you are looking for success in it is dangerous.

Levi Garett · Jul 19, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

After loading up on 5mp healing spells first starting PvP I quickly realized in a 4vs4 you mainly need to keep yourself alive at all costs and rarely need to heal other party members...

My Mo/Me:
Healing Breeze
Orison of Healing
*Classified* <-Be creative here! Another debuff is always handy.
Smite Hex
Hex Breaker
Divine Boon
Peace and Harmony
Res Sig

12 Healing, 9 Smiting, 12 Divine (+1 Divine Scalp). Only Minor runes here. Leftovers points go into whatever the prim attrib is for Hex Breaker (can't remember off the top of my head-Domination?). I use Orison instead of Healing Touch since it has a faster recharge. Mana isn't too bad unless you are required to heal other party members which is normally not the case. Just keep running around and only stop to cast heals on yourself. Never stay still no matter what, and try to run in circles around your group just incase they need a heal. Oh, and stay as far away as possible from them Air Eles! Lastly keep Hex Breaker up always, and remove hexes whenever possible. Don't forget to re-cast P&H so you don't have a +3 regen on your mana.

Again, this isn't polished, but I've had some success with it. I can't say I never die, but I stay alive long enough to give my team and edge at the very least.

ManaCraft · Jul 19, 2005, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

When a monk runs low on energy, it dies. Therein loies the problem I seek to overcome, for I do not wish to run out of energy so quickly. This is actually fairly easy for some monks, using energy drain or offering of blood to keep their energy up, but for a monk using both healing and prot (like the arena-focused monk Im building) taking a 4th attribute for those is not feasable. So how do I get more energy? So far, all I can think of is Peace and Harmony,, which isnt that great and can be dispelled anyways. There is also Signet of Devotion, which allow me to heal without losing energy. I guess there is also Divine Spirit, but the loooong cooldown is a real turnoff. Blessed Signet only works if you use enchants, whcih I dont.

Ideas?

There's always the option of running divine boon on a protection monk (this is what I do myself, although I play in tombs, not arenas). That'll get you a good healing capacity, as well as the protection spells you need to stay alive. You won't be spending points on more than two attributes that way, which leaves room for a third attribute for your energy management skill (offering, drain, etc). Obviously divine boon requires a good bit of energy, but the tradeoff is usually worth it.

Other than that your only option is peace and harmony, which quite frankly isn't all that impressive.

ManaCraft

Excer · Jul 19, 2005, 04:22 PM // 16:22

energy management in 4v4 isnt that hard. heres the prot/healer build i use

prot: 12+1+1
divine favor: 10+1
healing: 8+2

Balthazar's Spirit
Life Bond
Blessed Signet
Shield of Regeneration
Protective Spirit
Healing Touch
Orison of Healing
Restore Life

its really not that original, but it works well. i have never found my self short of energy or unable to get it. life bonds are better than essence bonds since they actually help the person the bond is on. this build can easily last all four people pounding on you (assuming ur teammates are alive and ur not being backfired)

theclam · Jul 19, 2005, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Divine Boon, Peace and Harmony, and Signet of Devotion are all good energy management skills. Offering of Blood and Energy Drain are even better.

SoTzuMe · Jul 19, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamluk

Your post doesn't make much sense. First you say it is foolish to go both prot and healing and then you suggest alternating between reversal and orison. Maybe you don't play monk that much?

You might want to revise that to say orison and dwayna's kiss or word of healing. However, you won't be able to handle any decent sort of focus fire at all- most likely, your ally will be dead and you will be at half energy. Not good.

Not being able to handle any sort of focus fire makes you a poor monk.

Healing is great and very useful, but for energy management, protection is more efficient, for example, reversal of fortune prevents and heals. Against a 100 point lightning spell, a reversal could easily negate that, whereas a 66 point orison wouldn't. Divine favour bonuses being equal in both cases.

Not being able to manage your energy and splitting your att points too far makes you a poor monk.

My example of orison and reversal was directed toward the monk you propose as an example: a healing prot monk. Of course, the same principle applies to any two 5 energy spells you use. This was simply an example of the best way to manage energy without any other specific energy management scheme in place -- something I still would not recommend. If you are bent on proving prot monks are superior in energy management, then specialize and be truly good at it.

In truth both heal and prot monks are better situationally, and in how they are set up to complement each other on a team, just as direct heals should be complemented by heals over time and deflect/defense skills. Big energy heal and prot skills have a place too, and can be a good opportunity to forego Divine Favor for some other attribute, or even primary class.

Given a four man arena setup, I would always go healing over prot -- try each and tell me which keeps your team alive longer. Prot is hugely valuable... in an 8 player team.

Your question was how to overcome your problem of running out of energy: the answer is to have an energy management scheme via necro, mesmer, DF monk skills, ele, signet build, ranger (melandru's resilience), or whatever. If not, use an extremely low energy build and pump DF. Also, don't split your points up, specialize as much as possible, including points for your energy management scheme as necessary.

mamluk · Jul 19, 2005, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoTzuMe

Not being able to manage your energy and splitting your att points too far makes you a poor monk.

My example of orison and reversal was directed toward the monk you propose as an example: a healing prot monk. Of course, the same principle applies to any two 5 energy spells you use. This was simply an example of the best way to manage energy without any other specific energy management scheme in place -- something I still would not recommend. If you are bent on proving prot monks are superior in energy management, then specialize and be truly good at it.

In truth both heal and prot monks are better situationally, and in how they are set up to complement each other on a team, just as direct heals should be complemented by heals over time and deflect/defense skills. Big energy heal and prot skills have a place too, and can be a good opportunity to forego Divine Favor for some other attribute, or even primary class.

Given a four man arena setup, I would always go healing over prot -- try each and tell me which keeps your team alive longer. Prot is hugely valuable... in an 8 player team.

Protection monks in a 8 player team are very different than a good arena prot monk. In arena, you have to expect and prepare for the chance that you are going to be the main target, I maintain that the best set-up for this is to run a healing and prot monk, here are some of the skills I recommend:

orison
healing touch
reversal
mend ailment
protective spirit
a resurrect skill
spellbreaker/mark of protection/shield of regeneration/echo
balthazer's spirit

I include echo there as echoing healing touch is a great little combo. By the way, how much fun is echo?

Others that are fun to play around with are aura of faith and life attunement and heal area. Just tell your teammates to not worry about the warriors hitting you- if the warriors arent hurt, then you wont be healing them when you use heal area. and with something like attunement on you, you can heal yourself for about 250 + DF with heal area. (heal area targets you only so you do get a DF bonus)

As you can see, I don't run the typical 8 man arena prot skills like blessed signet and life bond.

I maintain that a monk with points spread roughly through healing/prot/DF would be a better, more energy efficient arena 4v4 monk than a straight healing monk. I say this from all my tweaking and testing as I really enjoy the challenge of playing a monk in arena. Your experiences may differ, but I do think that at least the OP agrees with me, seeing as how he is asking questions about how to manage his energy with his healing+prot monk.

I am interested in doing more work with divine boon to see if maybe I can elimate the need for healing, my experiences have shown me that running that makes it really hard for energy management.

I think we have a difference in approach regarding attribute point distribution. For arena at least, I am much happier with 12 ranks in healing and prot and DF rather than maxing out healing at 16. By the way, I hear that maxing out healing isnt as efficient as maxing out DF after you get to around 9 healing or so. This might be something to look into more. Certainly DF is more versatile in that it applies to prot spells. Looking at the effects of additional ranks in healing, I don't think they benefit me as much as using those points to pump up protection as well. It seems that every additional point in healing makes my orison's for instance heal for 3 more health. Not that useful compared to being able to put many more points into prot.

You maintain that specialization is the way to go, I say versatility is best for arena. At least this is something that everyone can try out and test to see which suits them better, as play style certainly has an impact on this.

Too bad there isnt an easy way to get together in game and test things out, I am always keen on ways to improve my arena builds (since I am not in a guild, I play a lot arena. HoH hasn't interested me as much for some reason)

Age · Jul 19, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

What if they don't have any Elite skills yet as some don't not me yet can't wait though.Especialy those great smiting elites.I have played in the arenas in PVP and a little in HOH i just kept my eye on those who needed to be healed and used which skill suited the jop if I had full energy I would use heal party or if I had healing seed I would use that or and something like Mending or Life Viscosity.That PVP build is now deleted and we did good in in PVP.

Red Locust · Jul 19, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

The best energy management options are in the mesmer lineup. Inspired hex, inspired enchantment, channeling, energy drain, drain enchantment, spirit of failure + blinding someone.

ICURADik · Jul 19, 2005, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManaCraft

There's always the option of running divine boon on a protection monk (this is what I do myself, although I play in tombs, not arenas). That'll get you a good healing capacity, as well as the protection spells you need to stay alive. You won't be spending points on more than two attributes that way, which leaves room for a third attribute for your energy management skill (offering, drain, etc). Obviously divine boon requires a good bit of energy, but the tradeoff is usually worth it.

Other than that your only option is peace and harmony, which quite frankly isn't all that impressive.

ManaCraft

Bingo. We have a winner. The hands down best Arena Monk is Protection, with Boon. Just spam reversal with channeling on. The simple cast alone will heal for 100+ and reversal has the ability to prevent around 140 damage. Mend Ailment, annother very important Arena spell also synergizes well. The only reason to ever spec healing is for Word and Seed. Both very nice in Tombs/GvG, but hardly necesary in 4v4 since neither can be cast on yourself.

ElderAtronach · Jul 19, 2005, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoTzuMe

Given a four man arena setup, I would always go healing over prot -- try each and tell me which keeps your team alive longer. Prot is hugely valuable... in an 8 player team.

You've gotta be kidding me. Obviously you haven't met the 3 Ele spike groups in the arenas yet. Try saying that healing is better than prot when you're getting hit with 160 point lighting orbs, chain lightnings, and 90 point surges, while trying to heal yourself with orison/touch/reversal. Without protective spirit you are a goner in less than 5-10 seconds.

Go rack up some wins in team arenas before you make statements like this...

pagansaint · Jul 20, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Mo/W don't even need many points into tactics and use Bonneti's Defense. during its super quick duration just don't cast while the warrior's are beating on you. Against casters Storm CHaser from the ranger line is nice.