Curse

Linkie · Jul 25, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Luci

If all 8 mesmers use Arcane echo then Energy surge

THink about that since all rangers r stuck together !!!!

You still won't be able to damage more than the energy you can remove. Which on a ranger is about 200 damage.

Zeru · Jul 25, 2005, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

But then again Surge isn't very good except for misdirection; I guess it's just an example though.

*grumbles*

Quote:

Yes, we realize that every build sucks since they all have counters. By playing the game we're wasting everyone's time. Unless someone has some unstoppable build I haven't seen yet?

/me sighs

Every build has counters but the big difference is that some builds can be countered by lots of things (i,e a burn/surge heavy build) whereas other builds can only be countered by a very specific set of skills designed mainly to beat that build. You can have lots of general counters, for example ward against melee on one person with decent earth for warrior hate in a general build, but if you run into a team with 3-4 warriors with 2-4 buffs stacked on them your one non-full duration ward against melee is not going to be enough to stop them. You would need additional hexes/enchants such as sympathetic visage and soothing images. There is a very big difference between getting countered by almost anything because efficiency is low and being countered by a very select setup.

ICURADik · Jul 25, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

That's the bad version of air spike. It's what you run in arena when you have to try and solo kill something, but you don't want to touch that ever in 8v8.

Good Air Gank is a Rend Enchantments or Nature's Renewal, followed immediately by four copies of Chain Lightning on the same Monk. That'll kill one caster with a bunch of splash damage. Fill in with coordinated Orbs/Strikes while Chain recharges, then repeat on another target.

Lightning Surge doesn't belong at all.

Back on the subject of Mesmers, Energy Surge is actually mildly interesting because the AoE is great - the same as a Ward. People don't even need to bunch up for that skill to deal a bunch of damage. It's not a great nuke, but it is a nuke and if you're a PvE Mesmer you have to take what you can get. Energy Burn on the other hand is filler, a poor single target nuke, that should only get run under extreme circumstances (PANK), and Mind Wrack is junk that I'd only even think about in arena where you have to find a way to kill somehow.

Peace,
-CxE

Bwahaha, silence the doubters. Like I've been saying all along. 80 damage may not be a lot, but 8*80=640 from a single char is a hell of a lot better than many other spells.

Saria Nightblade · Jul 25, 2005, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Since we're all arguing about available pools of energy, it seems that if the all mesmer team was trying to energy surge one target, they are being retarded. If we were to take the example of the 8 mesmer team, it would make sense for mesmer number 1 to take on enemy number 1 on the opposing team, mesmer 2 on enemy 2, and so on. That way each mesmer can run arcane echo and energy surge and only burn 20 energy on each target--even with warriors, you're not going to run into much problems with reduced damage (I've seen about 16 or 17 energy on a warrior at least), and if say enemy number 1 was a warrior, mesmer #1 could switch to an ele for their second surge. The benefit to this is that everyone would have more than enough energy to burn and the aoe damage will work its way around evenly for the best effect on the whole opposing team. The main benefit to the mesmer spike as opposed to the air ele spike is that it cripples the whole team very quickly with several casualties as opposed to 1 kill with the air ele spike.

arredondo · Jul 26, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Bwahaha, silence the doubters. Like I've been saying all along. 80 damage may not be a lot, but 8*80=640 from a single char is a hell of a lot better than many other spells.

You don't even have to go that extreme (80E on the opponent is required for that to work). The problem is that Energy Surge/Burn combos are being seen as the ONLY focal point of damage in a given build. You can get away with two Mesmers doing this to an energy abundant character (building off my earlier post):

Mesmer 1:
------------
Phantom Pain
Energy Surge {E}
Energy Burn
Shatter Delusions

Mesmer 2:
------------
Conjure Phantasm
Echo {E}
Energy Burn

M2 calls target and casts CP (under a second with FC points) then hits Echo. M1 casts Phantom Pain in about 1.5 seconds. They both cast Energy Burn, then M1 hits Energy Surge while M2 casts the Echo'd Energy Burn.

Shatter Delusions is then spiked on PP. The damage from this 7 second sequence might be:

Energy zapped = -40E, not unrealistic for most casters at the start of a match.
Health zapped = -80 DoT (five seconds at -8 degen), -80x4= -320 from E.Burns/Surge, -174 from Shatter Delusions+Deep Wound with Domination at 16 on a 500 health opponent. Total = -574 damage

No worries about armor penatration, Winter or anti-lightning stances and armor PLUS you are zapping energy. The damage is high as long as they have energy, and no energy means no retaliation from those characters.

Two Mesmers. Seven seconds. Primary damage are the Energy Surge/Burn skills. Opponent neutered with -40E taken from him. Death guaranteed if not defended or healed (plus the -5 degen continues). Just an example of building around ridiculed skills with some decent stats to get results.

YES it can be stopped/defended/Spirit-nerfed.... etc. But so can the Air Spike builds as well. Against some non-Spirit teams that are set-up to stop Air Spikers, this could be the basis of a Mesmer dominated team that can win where the Air Spikers couldn't. I'm not saying it's better, and it's maybe not as good overall, but definitely not a stupid idea with no potential. It definitely does some things that the other can't.

jesh · Aug 10, 2005, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saria Nightblade

Since we're all arguing about available pools of energy, it seems that if the all mesmer team was trying to energy surge one target, they are being retarded. If we were to take the example of the 8 mesmer team, it would make sense for mesmer number 1 to take on enemy number 1 on the opposing team, mesmer 2 on enemy 2, and so on. That way each mesmer can run arcane echo and energy surge and only burn 20 energy on each target--even with warriors, you're not going to run into much problems with reduced damage (I've seen about 16 or 17 energy on a warrior at least), and if say enemy number 1 was a warrior, mesmer #1 could switch to an ele for their second surge. The benefit to this is that everyone would have more than enough energy to burn and the aoe damage will work its way around evenly for the best effect on the whole opposing team. The main benefit to the mesmer spike as opposed to the air ele spike is that it cripples the whole team very quickly with several casualties as opposed to 1 kill with the air ele spike.

Thank you for saying what I was going to. Why would the mesmers waste the same skill on the same target when it's AOE?? There would be a much higher chance for a successful spike if each energy surge was targetting a different person. The AOE would overlap and be just as effective as if someone had 80 energy.
Anyway.. it's nice to see that some people are finally seeing that no, air elementalists are not the only way you can spike. Geez. Keep trying new things, it's refreshing. If people hadn't started thinking differently, we wouldn't even have the FoTM like we do now, being the spirit teams.