Curse

Granamyr · Jul 20, 2005, 09:17 PM // 21:17

A wiser person than I declared Guild Wars to be all about counters. If that's the case, it would seem logical that a team made up entirely of the class that specializes in counters would be unstoppable.

Name the template out there that a mesmer group couldn't stop. Spirit groups are probably the front-runners however every team has problems with those. The only group with a fighting chance seems to be the mesmers that are able to disrupt all of those spirits from being created.

I think one of the best strategies out there is just to disrupt the enemy strategy. There is nothing more detrimental to a team than a plan gone wrong. ANet may have hit on something when they termed the phrase 'chaos damage' as it truly is the most damaging force out there. Throw the opposing team into chaos and you'll be surprised how quickly their plan degenerates into arena-style, c-space combat.

Strong Points:
-One Me/Ne can debuff their whole team
-One Me/? can shut down 2 monks
-Physical Resistance and Elemental Resistance stances are completely effective without any attribute points -- almost impossible to get rid of
-Best caster armor
-Offensive mesmer lines are equally suited to shut down physical and magical damage
-Hex stacking is devastating and unstoppable without monks
-Mesmers easily shut down monks
-Each mesmer can achieve their role almost independently of the rest requiring little in-game organization (where most builds break down)

Weaknesses:
-You tell me

The versatility to adapt to any situation is the most valuable commodity in this game and mesmers have it in spades. If only I had a guild to test this with......

QuixotesGhost · Jul 20, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Nature's Renewal. And pretty much any build that packed a signifigant number of rangers.

stumpy · Jul 20, 2005, 09:41 PM // 21:41

currently with the skills anet has provided ... there is a lopsided flaw against hex / hex debuff

hex stacking is difficult to counter with out natures renewal ... what i mean is ... hear you have say 5 conditions loaded on one target ... answer draw conditions ... say those 5 were spread to all by epidemic ... matyr ...

hexing on the other hand ... monks have single hex removal. mesmers have single hex removal and single hex protection. Ranger have the ONLY skill to date that can wipe all hexes across the board. And now it is being thrown into the "omg nerf" pile ...

so effectively your build can do serious damage ... unless you hit nature renewal ... thats where your line will end.

Phades · Jul 20, 2005, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Convert hexes?

Granamyr · Jul 20, 2005, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Exactly, nature's renewal is a bane to most builds. What is the only group equipped to counter it.....mesmers. Stop that nature's renewal and the match is yours especially on builds that center around that spirit. It's those types of plans that fail horribly if they don't meet their starting condition.

Quote:

Convert hexes?

15 energy, 2 second cast time, 20 second recharge.......I'd laugh at a build that thought this was their saving grace.

stumpy · Jul 20, 2005, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Convert hexes?

pardon me forgot convert ...

let me rephrase this ... there are no good hex removal with a cool down worth taking ...

like draw conditions comparatively

************
SECOND EDIT
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so currently you have the option of nature renewal ... and oath shot which both can be interrupted and if you happen to interrupt them both ... guess what ... no natures renewal for what 80 seconds ... the battle will be far over by then.

Elythor · Jul 20, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

While the build looks nice on paper...I dont' see how you can deal enough damage to kill off the opposing team. At best you can annoy them to death and quit the game.

I doubt DoTing people to death would work unless you have some Me/W or Me/R with IW build.

Dred Skullord · Jul 20, 2005, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Mesmers are anti-casters. They became popular as a counter to the Spike teams (mostly air Elementalist that took down healer quickly). They are still effective against minion teams. But, a spirit build (all-ranger) will tear a new one into this all-mesmer build. About 8 spirits will be down before the Mesmer will be able to attack the spirit team. Good luck stopping 8 arrows a second Mesmer-boy. LOL

Glasswalker · Jul 20, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

IW build is exactly it. Maybe a smiting mesmer (lol) or a couple Me/E (air).

Man, I have been WAITING to see something like this in Tombs. Please, please, please, somebody do this!

The drawback as stated is damage. If the opposing team had a monk who avoided your shutdown, you would never win. You need damage dealers.

Granamyr · Jul 20, 2005, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

While the build looks nice on paper...I dont' see how you can deal enough damage to kill off the opposing team.

True, I don't have the specifics down but let's not be so naive as to think the only way to kill is with melee or nukes. In the absence of monks, DoT's are king.

Obviously I'm assuming monks won't be an issue but prove to me why I shouldn't make that assumption with a team full of mesmers. Furthermore, I'm not saying one of those mesmers can't be carrying IW.....again, versatility is this build's strongpoint.

I'm reluctant to define all the specifics since I don't have a team to give it to but I'll try to give it some more definition.

Dred Skullord · Jul 20, 2005, 10:17 PM // 22:17

5 mesmers 1 monk & 2 warriors should be the best mix for this type of build. Still, the spirit team will win.

Elythor · Jul 20, 2005, 10:18 PM // 22:18

You do realize that using the goodie-old Spell Breaker or Obsidian Flesh will render mez ineffiective, right?

Sure, SB/OF wont' last very long...but as long as they keep on enough to allow their damage dealers to hit you...then you'd be in trouble.

Cymmina · Jul 20, 2005, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elythor

You do realize that using the goodie-old Spell Breaker or Obsidian Flesh will render mez ineffiective, right?

Nature's Renewal doesn't play nice with those enchantments. Plus, there's Chilblains and Well of the Profane from a necro secondary.

Elythor · Jul 20, 2005, 10:37 PM // 22:37

In that case...you are talking about bringing rangers with you. I thought we are talking about all Mez build here. As stated by posters above...spirits are interruptable unless you have multiple rangers to keep up the spam...but then, you are a spirit spam team and not a mesmer team.

stumpy · Jul 20, 2005, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Granamyr = OP ....

and yes ... he is talking about mesmer build ... dont let this topic go to far astray ... it is intersting ... we are not talking about building a spirit spamming team ... read above ... it is flaw in his build which we are discussin how to counter. Someone else brought up SB/OF as well ... lets get back to mesmer

EDIT *****

forgot to answer the SB/OF poster ...

SB = attack another target ... people tend to stop casting when that annoying sounds hits your ear. And mesmers imo tend to be more intelligent players because it is a hard profession to play VERY well. So SB will hold 1 target at bay for a bit ... unless of course it is stolen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymmina

... well of profane ...

yes ... a very useful necro skill indeed against enchants ... take out a target and throw up the well ... = window of opportunity

Darc.Syde · Jul 21, 2005, 07:06 AM // 07:06

NR every 10 secs should kill hex heavy builds.

Mitsu Bishi · Jul 21, 2005, 07:51 AM // 07:51

The problem I see with this kind of build is not the damage output (there are ways to do that) nor the hex stacking / nature's renewal issue. It is solely coordination. You're supposed to do a lot of things in this team on lots of targets. It would be very communication intense - who interrupts which target (those Korean names are a pain to call for non-Koreans), generally who does what. It's not like in other groups where monks are healing and the rest is pressing T and unloads (save one Mesmer or Ranger maybe). It requires coordination and communication to the extreme and I doubt it will work for most groups. Maybe some well trained guild could pull it off but it is certainly no way for a PUG or inexperienced guilds who just hop on the FotW bandwagon.

As for stopping Spirit Spam, I guess Mesmers can really shine here. Signet of Humility stops that Oath Shot for 15 Seconds, Arcane Thievery can steal a spirit for half a minute which really brings down the laying pattern. Cry of Frustration is very handy on KotH-maps, Diversion may have some effect, too. It won't be easy, but that's the same for anybody going up against such teams.

Phades · Jul 21, 2005, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumpy

pardon me forgot convert ...

let me rephrase this ... there are no good hex removal with a cool down worth taking ...

like draw conditions comparatively

************
SECOND EDIT
************
so currently you have the option of nature renewal ... and oath shot which both can be interrupted and if you happen to interrupt them both ... guess what ... no natures renewal for what 80 seconds ... the battle will be far over by then.

Considering hexes cant be applied on every hit like conditions can and the fact that remove hex is only getting rid of 2 hexes in around 11 seconds with the option of a third occuring at 18s, +2s for the cast time, convert hexes is not such a bad choice. If you assume only one hex per target then yeah its not so wonderful, but a team consisting of mesmers would be throwing around alot more than that, assumming they arent just spam casting in order to shatter delusions, which would cause the actual timing for removal rather moot.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 21, 2005, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Wait, if you look at Shatter Delusions, on an all mesmer hex team, it could be catastrophic to one shmuck.

What's bad is that these mesmers would have to focus fire the spirits in order to bring them down and that could be disastrous.

And yes, Nature's Renewal is a crazy skill to be competing with.

Vusak · Jul 21, 2005, 11:42 AM // 11:42

if each mesmer had signet of humility and used this on each corresponding opponent.

then have each mesmer arm themselves with signet of midnight + spirit of failure. again on each opponent.

then have each mesmer use empathy and backfire on each enemy.

then have each mesmer use cry of frustration and wastrels worry.

then have each mesmer maintain all these hexes on each enemy.

i think youd have a good chance.

if each mesmer was Me/Mo, and carried resurrect/restore life for their 8th skill (obviously theyd need to have max fast cast and max domination with some inspiration).