Curse

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Oh you're talking about GvG again, ok =P. For some reason I was thinking of HoH. But in GvG, if the ranger continues to fall back, that just makes it so your team can control the morale, so if you are able to lead out, or kill even 1 of the defense, while losing 1 of your own, with morale boosts it's viable. Spirits are just another defensive strategy, it works fine if you can work around having to fight from one location, and the area around it. But the build lacks mobility, so you let the other team establish the pace of the fight.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightwish

It seems that the counters suggested in this thread are provided by the spirit spammers themselves, is it not?

Not sure bout you guys but most of the time I would find it hard to believe suggestions given by opponents themselves :P

This is just a basic reaction from me but there are sporty people/players out there and there might be sincere counter strategies in this thread :P

Please note:
The debate here is not about whether spirit spamming can be countered or not BUT how difficult it is to be countered!

Thats why the term OVERPOWERED and not INVINCIBLE is used for spirit spamming.

Regardless, their 'counters' don't work, but you guys are more than welcome to give them a try. gl.

I'm thinking I am going to let them spout about how good and counterable their spirit spam build is

Stuntastic · Aug 10, 2005, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Blackace strikes again with his incredibly reinforced comments......

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Well, us unknowns over here (so says the mighty blackace, master of all things guildwars) got to rank 22 on the guild ladder with a build you'd call normal (non-spirit spam). We also face many types of spirit spams in HoH and GvG, including MS (whom we beat). Yes, we sometimes run spirit builds, and we sometimes run other builds, but what does that have to do with the fact that the counters we suggested do work, and there are more, I'm sure among the skills in this game.

I really don't care if you don't think having a high rank on the guild ladder now means anything blackace, because many more people value guild ladder position then those who value the sacred, godly, beta guild's opinions (not directing this at you in any way tuna, at least you aren't arrogant enough to believe that only the beta ladder actually showed good guilds.

By the way, I'd like your opinion about PALO, blackace, I hear they were a respected guild back in beta, is this true?

-z|o- · Aug 10, 2005, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Tuna they are noobs. Just leave them alone.

If nobody is going to show that NoS's tactics are not valid, the majority of community will start to believe that there is nothing wrong with spirits.

Btw there is no point agueing about GvG since the only spirit that defines meta game in GvG is NR. Thankfully there is no time limit and one has all the time in the world to DP out spirit spammers.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 09:06 AM // 09:06

....How many times do I have to say that I'm not suggesting counters for my own build, because I've had to come up with them myself when fighting spirit builds when not running one myself.

The entire reason I'm suggesting counters is to get some people out of the mindset that the only reason they lose is due to spirits, and blaming this, over their own skill in a loss.

It just bothers me, when after a 1v1 match in which spirits were used, instead of the normal GG comments, we're greeted with a bunch of "spirits are overpowered and the only reason you won". They can think what they want, because the teams saying this we would've beat with any build. The teams who don't say this, are the ones who are good enough to realize they lost, and also good enough to devise effective counters. These are the guilds holding top positions, and these are the guilds in which matches are very exciting and hectic.

The pathing with spirits in which people use mass spams to bodyblock altars is retarded I agree. They need to fix that.

Aug 10, 2005, 09:08 AM // 09:08

PALo was I guess. They seemed like cool people, not sure about how good they were when they were at their best in PvP.

NDa(iQ) got to rank 11 on the GvG ladder in Beta when more guilds were playing. Not like it took much work.

IQ got to rank 145 or so in one night of playing after being 5-0 and rank 300+ when testing a new build. The ladder isn't respected anymore because most teams even within the top 50 arent really that good.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 09:17 AM // 09:17

You know Blackace, I have to agree with you. A lot of the guilds in the top 50 actually are pretty bad =P. I mean, same thing in tombs, a lot of people who are rank 6+ are actually bad. However, with both situations, the majority still are pretty good. I just don't understand why you need to discredit the entire guild ladder just because some guilds aren't so good. The guilds that actually are good know who doesn't deserve to be holding a given position.

Guild ladder aside, since it hasn't really come to the point that newbie guilds can get to the top; HoH is very messed up. Now, you can just take a random pug, or rank 1000 guild and win HoH very easily. It's starting to become a joke of which newbie team or guy with a dumb name's pug will win HoH next.

If you think about GW too hard I'm sure anyone would become bitter, but I just like to have fun, and if I feel like a challenge, play one of the top 20 guilds, out of them all, they at least will give an entertaining match rather than a mass of newbs who do lame strategies like rushing the guild lord.

Between spirits and guild lord rushing, I don't see a problem with a valid tactic that is using spirits, but rushing a guild lord is just lame (not that we actually lose against it, but every 5th game or so results in the team trying to rush, so it gets a bit old).

Aug 10, 2005, 09:22 AM // 09:22

The reason I, and many other discredit the ladder is just that the big picture of GW PvP is very ugly: everyone didnt start on an equal field, some people still dont have all their skills, there is still item and skill imbalance, and you can race the ladder with a one-trick pony easily due to NR and guild lord ganking.

Hoh always has been "bad", it just went to extreme shit when WaW came into the picture and everyone wanted to backstab Koreans.

I dont have a problem with either tactic, and I know ways to beat both. The thing is, it costs a lot of investment to beat a good spirit spamming setup, and it's usually the kind of investment that wastes too much time and resources for minimal gain that makes it leave a bad taste in my mouth. You dont even have to interrupt the Rangers, you just beat them in a war of attrition while fighting under a build that isn't going to crumble to NR/QZ spam since fighting against the spirits directly is a waste of time.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 09:35 AM // 09:35

You're right, I'll give some more thought into a possible change for NR. The fact I was trying to prove was simply that spirits are counterable. Maybe a stance/spell/new ritual could be implemented that protected enchantments/hexes from removal. Like a mantra of enchantments, "for 5-15 seconds, mantra of enchantments protects 1-3 from removal", don't go and critique it though, I just wanted to put forth the idea. NR does make many builds obsolete, and maybe with enchantment protectors, it would give you time to function with the enchantments to stop the enemy from spamming it. Making NR so it needs 9 in wilderness to use would also alleviate the problem.

What I have a problem with, are the people who sit and whine about something (in this case spirits) after a loss, instead of changing. Until Arenanet does do something about it, creating builds to function under a NR spam and other spirits is a wise thing to do, as is bringing effective counters to it. If you don't want to run spirits, you still need to function effectively under their effects, so keep that in mind when creating a build.

Calnaion Blackhawk · Aug 10, 2005, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobber

Make the Ghostly Hero take 2 or 3 times the damage from Edge of Extinction.

yea what tht hell, its supposed to deal damage not increase the dmg output from NPC's

Phades · Aug 10, 2005, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Golradiar [NOOB

Guild ladder aside, since it hasn't really come to the point that newbie guilds can get to the top; HoH is very messed up. Now, you can just take a random pug, or rank 1000 guild and win HoH very easily. It's starting to become a joke of which newbie team or guy with a dumb name's pug will win HoH next.

That would be an observation of a direct result of the older players not playing as much or at all anymore. Many of them have moved on for various reasons, but one of them is a result of percieved imbalances and the lack of changes. There are other issues that cause people to leave, especially the more casual. To try and state that everything is fine because if you bring several skills to defeat one method of play, which is across a few characters, then something is wrong due to the vast number of methods that one style defeats nearly by default. It is compounded, due to the fact that the core of the style can revolve around only 1 character, while previous styles were more focused around several characters.