Curse

RayneEternal · Aug 09, 2005, 11:51 PM // 23:51

I'm not so much disgusted with the fact that NR removes all enchantments and hexes, but more so with the extra ability of making enchantments and hexes take twice as long to cast. No one really uses it for this effect, don't you think it's powerful enough to removal all of these permanent effects.. additionally making them extremely time consuming to reapply is a severe balance issue. Most good or interesting concepts to build on as far as hexes go are already 2 or 3 second casting times; yet these can not be considered seriously under the current format because of NR's constant presence.

If they were to nerf the initial effect of removing enchantments and hexes from everyone within range; they would also have to introduce a number of cheaper enchantment and hex removal spells. Much of the reason NR is so powerful is because of the competing skills that have the same effects. Single target removal is more expensive in almost all cases and lacks any real benefit to make up for this added cost.

Tuna · Aug 09, 2005, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayneEternal

If they were to nerf the initial effect of removing enchantments and hexes from everyone within range; they would also have to introduce a number of cheaper enchantment and hex removal spells. Much of the reason NR is so powerful is because of the competing skills that have the same effects. Single target removal is more expensive in almost all cases and lacks any real benefit to make up for this added cost.

Correct, but I think that is the answer. NR imo should only lengthen cast time (scaling) and remove few, if any, enchants and hexes.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 12:14 AM // 00:14

So now the good players are the ones asking for spirit spam nerfs? Show me those players and I'll agree with you.

dobber · Aug 10, 2005, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Make the Ghostly Hero take 2 or 3 times the damage from Edge of Extinction.

Kaylee Ann · Aug 10, 2005, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobber

Make the Ghostly Hero take 2 or 3 times the damage from Edge of Extinction.

What? .....

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobber

Make the Ghostly Hero take 2 or 3 times the damage from Edge of Extinction.

Umm.... What is that supposed to mean?

dobber · Aug 10, 2005, 12:30 AM // 00:30

If the Ghostly Hero takes damage from Edge of Extinction you are useing the same tool to shut down the spirits and win the KoTH map. So if you are a spirit spamer you would know that (let say) if 10 of the spirits die your Ghostly Hero dies too. This would minimize the spaming proces to 2-3-4 more usefull spirits.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golradiar [NOOB]

So now the good players are the ones asking for spirit spam nerfs? Show me those players and I'll agree with you.

'sup

characterlimit

Kaylee Ann · Aug 10, 2005, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobber

If the Ghostly Hero takes damage from Edge of Extinction you are useing the same tool to shut down the spirits and win the KoTH map. So if you are a spirit spamer you would know that (let say) if 10 of the spirits die your Ghostly Hero dies too. This would minimize the spaming proces to 2-3-4 more usefull spirits.

What in god's name are you talking about? Have you even read the skill description for EoE, or ever used it?

dobber · Aug 10, 2005, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Ghostly Hero and normal spirits should be creatures of the same type.
Well, English is not my mother language so I can't explain very well. And this is not the best idea after all.

And yes, I know what EoE does and I've played alot with it.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Tuna, who's characterlimit, and who's Dark Horizons? I checked the guild ladder and didn't see it show up.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golradiar [NOOB]

Tuna, who's characterlimit, and who's Dark Horizons? I checked the guild ladder and didn't see it show up.

There is a character limit on posts. You would probably know who DrkH is if you were around during the betas. We were strong in retail untill a bunch of people quit etc.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Was trying to edit my post but had some weird error, ya I do remember Drkh from a few months ago, but just because a guild was strong a while ago doesn't make them strong now. Look at most alpha/beta guilds, due to inactivity or just time, they've been replaced by new guilds in the top of the ladder. PALO used to be good too, but every time I've GvGed them, and from looking at their rank, you can either say something happened to them, or the good guilds now just weren't around back in beta to show their skill.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golradiar [NOOB]

Was trying to edit my post but had some weird error, ya I do remember Drkh from a few months ago, but just because a guild was strong a while ago doesn't make them strong now. Look at most alpha/beta guilds, due to inactivity or just time, they've been replaced by new guilds in the top of the ladder. PALO used to be good too, but every time I've GvGed them, and from looking at their rank, you can either say something happened to them, or the good guilds now just weren't around back in beta to show their skill.

Read closely, did I say drkh was still good? No, I claimed I was good. (something I don't usually do but you made an equally dumb statement.)

Kaylee Ann · Aug 10, 2005, 01:43 AM // 01:43

I don't see random noobs ranked at all.....

DarkAynjil · Aug 10, 2005, 01:43 AM // 01:43

I'm currently looking for ppl to help test a team counter-build to spirit spam. The general idea is to have 2 casters drop timed maelstroms and a r/* or */r drop choking gas.. with some axe/hammer warriors and healing monks, a mesmer and necro with short hexes. If you're interested, pm me. I'm also looking for a new guild, as my old one is rather inactive.

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 02:26 AM // 02:26

I'm with you 100% Golradiar, and sums up a lot of what I was going to post.

Okay, I ignored a lot of the idiot babble after the original poster after I saw where it was going.

Good Teams, will always win. Why do you want to nerf spirits so bad? Is it because you don't want to take the time to make an effective counter? I say to you that is a BAD reason to nerf anything in a game. So, lets see, for a brief time smite groups were dominating everything, why didn't we ever want to see balth's aura draw conditions and ether renewal nerfed?

Let me explain to you several reasons why I see major problems with everything that anyone says that elates to the overpowering of spirits.

1. They're difficult to coordinate. Because a good spirit build is more difficult to coordinate than a good smite group, you all want to nerf spirits, because the good guilds have the reasources to run a well coordinated spirit group. Of course none of you are going to admit to lacking the skill and experience to run a spirit group, so it's really my word against yours, and my word so far has won about oh, 100% of the time(GvG). My guild since switching to a spirit build is 16-0. Why? Because we've always been organized, skilled, and experienced, but we never had a build that was well put together. I'm obviously not going to go into detail about our build, but it's better than most spirit builds from what I've seen so far, and those that are close, don't run it as well as we do, there are a few guilds that give us a run for our money, but never a pug.

2. Groups that go against spirit groups almost never interupt the main spirit casters or kill the spirits that are up. This is simple laziness. If your build does not run in spirits well, you can't cry about it and give up, you have to get rid of them. Even before we ran a spirit build, we would win 70% of the time because we payed attention and killed spirits and drained the spirit spammer etc. I distincly remember killing beating NOOB once when they tried to come at us at the beginning of a HoH 4 Teams Match. So, laziness is the other problem I see with most of your alls claims about spirits being overpowered.

3. There will always be a build that is superior. All builds have a counter, and all counters have a counter, and at least in this game skill is what's usually placed on the line in the end.

TO THOSE OF YOU WHO CANNOT BEAT SPIRIT GROUPS I SAY! Learn how. Spend time, look at skills, figure out what exactly they do, join a GOOD one and see how they're put together and find out the weaknesses. The problem is for most of you who complain, the people who run the spirit groups KNOW how to beat themselves, but we're certainly not going to tell you.

I slammed a lot of you with this post, but consider it a learning experience instead of insulting, dont get defensive, go learn. I promise you, it's fun if you put in the time and effort.

Edit: Changed Gladiator to Golradiar hehe.(sorry)

Bleidd · Aug 10, 2005, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Spirits are NOT overpowered. If those guys fear Natural Renewal so much, why not just avoid using enchantment or hex? Mesmers, necro and monks have much more in their spell arsenals than just enchantment and hex. Whoever thinks spirits are overpowered is not trying hard enough to create an alternative team build.

How much more?

Elementalist - Water line is almost entirely hexes and enchantments; Earth has several enchantments as well (that leaves them with Fire and Air)
Monk - Protection line is almost entirely enchantments
Necromancer - Blood has several enchantments; Curses is almost entirely hexes (that leaves them with Death)
Mesmer - Illusion and Domination are almost entirely hexes; Inspiration is almost entirely enchantments (that leaves them with what? Fast Cast + Secondary?)

And this from a PvE player. If I can see such gaping holes in your mentality, why can't you?

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maltare

Good Teams, will always win. Why do you want to nerf spirits so bad? Is it because you don't want to take the time to make an effective counter? I say to you that is a BAD reason to nerf anything in a game. So, lets see, for a brief time smite groups were dominating everything, why didn't we ever want to see balth's aura draw conditions and ether renewal nerfed?

Let me explain to you the difference between an overpowered combo (which is still counterable) and a skill that renders 30% of the game useless.

Quote:

1. They're difficult to coordinate

2 warriors
2 rangers
1 mesmer
3 monks

Holy crap that was hard to coordinate. 90% of every spirit team runs something similar to that for one reason: everything else is enchantment/hex dependant. I'm also curious to hear how spamming fertile seaons is hard to coordinate.

Quote:

My guild since switching to a spirit build is 16-0. Why? Because we've always been organized, skilled, and experienced, but we never had a build that was well put together.

1. Don't those 2 statements contridict each other?
2. I did some quick figureing and going 16-0 would give you 200 or more points. Subtract that from 1463 and you have ~1250, which is roughly rank 450. I'm sure you met some real stiff competition coming up those ranks.

Quote:

2. Groups that go against spirit groups almost never interupt the main spirit casters or kill the spirits that are up.

Ever stop to think about why? Spirits are skills, spell interuptions don't work. You need to KD or use some warrior attacks or something. Kill the spirits? Oh, you mean the ones with near 1000 life?

Quote:

If your build does not run in spirits well, you can't cry about it and give up, you have to get rid of them.

What if we don't want to run a spirit build? Should we suck it up and never use an enchant or hex again and just hope for the best? I think we have another strategic genius on our hands.

Quote:

3. There will always be a build that is superior. All builds have a counter, and all counters have a counter, and at least in this game skill is what's usually placed on the line in the end.

If all builds have a counter, tell me the counter to spirit spam. A real counter, killing 1000 hp spirits or draining a character than only needs 5 energy/skill is not a counter.

Quote:

The problem is for most of you who complain, the people who run the spirit groups KNOW how to beat themselves, but we're certainly not going to tell you.

Yeah they do, its called more of the same played better.

I think some of you miss the reason we complain so much about spirit spam. There are 2 main problem skills:
1. Fertile Seasons: something about making everything on the map near invincible for period of time sounds pretty cheesy, especially on koth maps.
2. Nature Renewal: this skill takes a giant crap on 30% of the skills and people still defend it. I guess they don't like hexes.

Nightwish · Aug 10, 2005, 03:12 AM // 03:12

I agreed with Tuna above. Spirit spammers should try using another build to counter spirit spamming themselves instead of saying others suck for not trying harder. That alone seems to indicate that the spirit spammers themselves are taking the easier way out and critizising others (Who actually trying hard to find novel builds).