Curse

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 09, 2005, 10:32 AM // 10:32

How can you say a team build is "balanced" if it can't counter spirits builds. By definition, balanced would mean it is not specialized and so able to counter most builds. So why can't you counter spirits? Here are the two reasons, first of all, the builds that just are defensive and can't kill anything at all are stupid, I'll agree, but luckily, no good guilds run these types of builds just because of how boring it is. The spirit builds you're going to lose against are those run by organized teams/guilds who would beat you anyway even with a different build, but they chose to run a spirit one. If you just continue to run a build that has nothing to deal with spirits then it's your fault. Don't rely on long term enchantments, bring things to gain energy so quickening doesn't kill you, and most of all, do NOT run a spike or smite build. Seriously, come up with your own tactics and builds instead of copying builds that don't work and get crushed by spirits. I see teams forming that are running smite/spike heavy and think to myself "these guys are never going to win".

If more people start to use effective counters to spirit spammers like interrupts (rangers and warriors), knockdowns (warriors, elementalists, smite monks), and energy drains (mesmers), then groups will start to use spirit spamming less. If you think about it, at the beginning only certain groups used to run air spikers, then as more saw the power, almost all groups used them. People would come on forums just like this and whine about the power of chain lightning/surge/orb and ask for nerfs. Did Arenanet nerf? No. Did Arenanet need to nerf? No. With time, the good guilds and groups who invented the air spike, and were most successful with it, began to use different builds because they were tired of using the same thing. Not because protective spirit counters all spikes, but because they decided to stop using it. Protective spirit will not shut down a very well run spike team, the amount of enchantment removal (without nature's mind you) and speed of the spikes, along with overall coordination and player skill, makes a well played spike team extremely difficult to beat. There are some guilds who still run air spike builds in GvG (I distinctly remember People Who Pwn [PWN], but there are others, sorry about not remembering you), it's not a defensive build so it doesn't work well in tombs, but in GvG it's a perfectly good strategy.

Just to clarify, even though air spike was dominant for over a month, there were counters in use the whole time, the differences between those who lost, and those who defeated air spikers were purely the skill and effectiveness of the build and people running it. Protective spirit is a good way to shut down spikers, but again not the only way. Abilities that increase maximum health (fertile season along with various warrior/necro abilities), or decrease elemental damage (ward v. elements, ranger/elementalist armor, winter with mantra of frost) are also highly effective against spikers. My guild has only lost a single battle in the past month against a spike team ([PWN] was the guild). They played very well, and when we face them again I hope to win. The one thing that drove air spike out of common use was the mass amount of groups using protective spirit along with the other counters I stated against these spikers. When you come up against every team using a build that counters yours, it's a good idea to change it, so most groups no longer use air spike as a strategy.

If you let time take its course in the area of spirit builds, you will see the same thing happen. Spirit builds are NOT invincible, and are easily stopped with the correct counters along with a skilled team. I've seen many people agree that a random pick up group trying to run a spirit build isn't a threat, and here I agree completely, I've seen groups fall on their face while trying to use spirits. Groups have spammed spirits, and even dropped Edge of Extinction in this spam, letting my group remove their entire force of spirits within a few seconds. If the common pick up group running spirits is not the problem, let us think about who is? The answer is the experienced guild, or group of experienced players running a spirit build.

Experienced teams will not be stopped even if your team does bring EVERY single counter to spirits you can find. These teams will beat a common group REGARDLESS of the build they run. If you look at most complaints on any forum, most boil down to people whining about the skill of other players/guilds and merely picking the team's build, or specific spells, to whine about so they will sound less like a fool. If you're able to see through this guise, you can just laugh at these posts.

My advice to everyone who has a problem with spirits, bring the counters that I've stated to stop them, and plan your build around having to face a spirit team sometime, because not doing so is foolish. Just some overall advice about PvP in guildwars, if you want to win you need to do a few things: first and most important, find a good guild, or a good group of friends to play with regularly; second, develop a build that you enjoy playing, but one that also has counters to the builds you see in common use, there's no point in countering a team of fire elementalists because you never see them, so counter builds that you do see; third, practice often with the build, perfect it, and perfect your tactics, good players, playing in a good build, with good tactics is what wins games.

Feel free to add your comments and opinions, I'd love to hear what everyone has to say!

cookiehoarder · Aug 09, 2005, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Well written

Edge of Extinction will not always stop a spirit team though, an expirenced one that is. It's all in the placement of the spirits

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 09, 2005, 01:20 PM // 13:20

I agree, edge on its own won't stop spirits. If you're referring to my comment about killing a team when they dropped edge on themselves, the entire team was dead within a minute so shutting down the spirit spammer wasn't too important =P. Against a good guild EoE is a nice help, to clear all the current spirits if you have someone that's keeping the spammer from dropping more.

One other comment I had, some posts talk about multiple spirit spammers, or multiple people dropping renewal: although this is possible, very few groups are willing to sacrifice their secondary class to just take another one of a spirit that someone is already spamming, and in doing so losing more damage output/healing depending on who takes it.

Calnaion Blackhawk · Aug 09, 2005, 02:54 PM // 14:54

so the point in this was? to prove that spirits spammers CANT be beaten?

so now we are moving onto lets nerf experienced spirit spammers and not lets nerf NR?
dear o dear it gets better everyday

any Build/Team can be beaten if the opposite team is
1. good enough
2.organised enough
3.well prepared to fight it out

Thomasuwoo · Aug 09, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

My Post on how to beat spirt spammers.
It's a basic guide to get you started. Ah I miss the spike groups. When they were so popular and all around we just steamrolled our way right into the tombs.

Our most balanced build so far is our Pet build. We lvoe it to death but it is not an easy beast to run

.

Dan Mega · Aug 09, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Again, there are ways to beat us Spirit Spammers. And if you can't beat us, you're not good enough. Period. We found the one weakness for all of these 1337 players and now they want it nerfed.

Red Locust · Aug 09, 2005, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golradiar [NOOB]

If more people start to use effective counters to spirit spammers like interrupts (rangers and warriors), knockdowns (warriors, elementalists, smite monks), and energy drains (mesmers), then groups will start to use spirit spamming less.

You know, there are counters to knockdowns and interrupts, and if the spirit team decided to bring them, your counter goes out the window. Your whole counter relies on stopping that spirit spammer, and if he knows how to protect himself, you're in deep trouble.

Tigris Of Gaul · Aug 09, 2005, 05:31 PM // 17:31

My problem isn't with the majority of spirits. It's Fertile Season effecting other spirits, Nature's Renewal destroying most of the variety in builds, and spirits being able to block pathways, etc.

Spirits aren't the problem, spirit spam to grief people is.

Xellos · Aug 09, 2005, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigris Of Gaul

My problem isn't with the majority of spirits. It's Fertile Season effecting other spirits, Nature's Renewal destroying most of the variety in builds, and spirits being able to block pathways, etc.

Spirits aren't the problem, spirit spam to grief people is.

But at the same time, you realize how easy it is to take down spirits without fertile. I think it does buff a bit much, but it shouldn't completely ignore spirits in affecting it. I mean, 2 hits from a hammer warrior takes down any regular spirits, if Fertile was nerfed to that, no spirits would be used besides maybe frozen/natures and that's assuming natures isn't nerfed. Fertile would be a last minute move but even then no one would pick spirits ever.

I'm all for a "nerf" if it makes people happy, but I believe Fertile's ONLY rigged in HoH. In GvG, I've seen guys like hO even punch through Fertile defense, and Union has had no trouble what so ever dealing with it. Natures on the other hand while not a gamebreaker now, still limits variety which could lead to many builds that beat fertile in the first place.

I'm not going to be shallow and say "if you cant beat us you suck" like some people here, this isn't a E-Peen contest, but still, I can't see where fertile is considered overpowered in GvG. Does it make matches longer then usual? Somewhat. But most groups know how to take it down, making it pretty useless. From my experience, once a group targets fertiles first, your fertiles last 10 whole seconds if your lucky. You might be able to heal it, but the heal ratio is horrid, and that's what keeps it balanced.

Tombs on the other hand, needs some fixing. It's the KOTH stipulation that makes spirits so strong, not the spirits themselves. Instead of using spirits strategically, people can spam them like Tower Defense in Warcraft 3 and win like no tomorrow once they control the dias. Just like how sprint and KDs and such are very essential to CTF, Spirit Spam really wins it at HoH. You change the HoH to a rotating assortment of maps for the holder, and you'll see people shutting up how fertiles lame.

Quote:

Again, there are ways to beat us Spirit Spammers. And if you can't beat us, you're not good enough. Period. We found the one weakness for all of these 1337 players and now they want it nerfed.

Honestly, this just shows plain bias and discredibility. Any real guild can take out spirit spam in GvG, but tombs is a whole different issue. You can reverse roles where the 1337 players spirit spam and you go on the attack, you'll lose no matter what. That's the abuse of HoH. The only reason you can lose is if 2 coordinated teams fight you or you plain suck or you got tired of monopolizing it.

Kaylee Ann · Aug 09, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golradiar [NOOB]

Don't rely on long term enchantments,

Or any enchantment or hex for that matter.

Lets bring mesmers that have 6 drains and spam diversion, because they rule!!! A necro you say? They were only good for putrid anyways.... No need to use a prot monk either. A water ele had sub par damage anyways, for a snare that is going to get natures spammed away, so no use there.....

Awesome ideas guys! Lets not use half of the skills in the game just so we can tailor to natures renewal!!

Xellos · Aug 09, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee Ann

Or any enchantment or hex for that matter.

Lets bring mesmers that have 6 drains and spam diversion, because they rule!!! A necro you say? They were only good for putrid anyways.... No need to use a prot monk either. A water ele had sub par damage anyways, for a snare that is going to get natures spammed away, so no use there.....

Awesome ideas guys! Lets not use half of the skills in the game just so we can tailor to natures renewal!!

Bit old to express sarcasm as NR being lame has been beaten to death. People defend with ludicrous things like saying it's still beatable when that is not the point, it's that it cuts the game variety in half. It needs a serious tone now, not a sarcastic one.

-z|o- · Aug 09, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

The problem isnt in killing spirit teams. The problem is to kill them under 10 minutes.

Rey Lentless · Aug 09, 2005, 07:02 PM // 19:02

This is just the same ol' thread here. Someone who wants you to believe the game's perfectly balanced, and whoever thinks it isn't.. well you're a noob who would lose regardless of the skills used against you.

BS. The game isn't perfect. There are balance issues to address.

Xellos · Aug 09, 2005, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by -z|o-

The problem isnt in killing spirit teams. The problem is to kill them under 10 minutes.

If only signatures were reactivated.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 09, 2005, 10:52 PM // 22:52

So Rey Lentless, I'm the noob for thinking spirits aren't overpowered? All I can say to that is LOL, tell me what you have to back up the claim that I'm a noob? I hate to say this, but I sincerely doubt you've had as much experience in tombs, or GvG, as I have; or at least not enough to call me a noob.

True, there are many noobs who are naive and think the game is completely balanced, I'm not one of them. However, I don't think the problem lies in spirits, because in a 1v1 match, a spirit team is not too difficult to beat; the problem is in the HoH or other altar style matches. There are many different things that could be suggested as ways to beat these teams, including longer time limits, but that's for a different discussion.

Calnaion, I wasn't suggesting anything should be nerfed; I merely said that people should not whine about a build when the real reason they lost was their lack of skill. Experienced teams shouldn't be punished for being good, that's like saying, "The Colts are overpowered, I think Peyton Manning needs a nerf; running those passing plays isn't fair for the people who refuse to run enough defensive backs." If you can't beat something, think up a build that can beat it, perfect it, and practice it with your players to get them more experienced at their roles.

Having one person dedicated to stopping a spirit spammer, when facing a spirit team is not a bad idea, spirit teams are built around spirits and rely on them, so even if you lose a damage dealer, you just messed up their entire team strategy. Some teams may bring a counter to interrupts (certain mantras), but then they won't be able to counter knockdowns (balanced stance), or energy drains. Spirit spams don't need much energy, but they still do need energy, so draining works.

Hell Marauder · Aug 09, 2005, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Spirits are NOT overpowered. If those guys fear Natural Renewal so much, why not just avoid using enchantment or hex? Mesmers, necro and monks have much more in their spell arsenals than just enchantment and hex. Whoever thinks spirits are overpowered is not trying hard enough to create an alternative team build.

Kaylee Ann · Aug 09, 2005, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golradiar [NOOB]

So Rey Lentless, I'm the noob for thinking spirits aren't overpowered? All I can say to that is LOL, tell me what you have to back up the claim that I'm a noob?

The fact that your guild is unranked, and you are babbling some crap about GvG isn't enough?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golradiar [NOOB]

True, there are many noobs who are naive and think the game is completely balanced,

And you are one of them if you honestly think that natures negating the use of half of the skill sets in the game is considered balanced.

Kaylee Ann · Aug 09, 2005, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Spirits are NOT overpowered. If those guys fear Natural Renewal so much, why not just avoid using enchantment or hex?

Real good strategy there budy. Lets not use half the skills in the game ever again. Infact, just remove them from the game altogether.

Zeru · Aug 09, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Spirits are NOT overpowered. If those guys fear Natural Renewal so much, why not just avoid using enchantment or hex? Mesmers, necro and monks have much more in their spell arsenals than just enchantment and hex. Whoever thinks spirits are overpowered is not trying hard enough to create an alternative team build.

How about you get out of your shallow mindset and realize that one spirit destroying the usefulness of half the skills in the game is not good, period.

Xellos summed it up well enough: the problem is the retarded defensive nature of the hall of heroes and fertile season affecting spirits far too much.

Quote:

Calnaion, I wasn't suggesting anything should be nerfed; I merely said that people should not whine about a build when the real reason they lost was their lack of skill. Experienced teams shouldn't be punished for being good, that's like saying, "The Colts are overpowered, I think Peyton Manning needs a nerf; running those passing plays isn't fair for the people who refuse to run enough defensive backs." If you can't beat something, think up a build that can beat it, perfect it, and practice it with your players to get them more experienced at their roles.

Learn what you're talking about first. The good players are the ones saying NR is overpowered and that fertile affecting other spirits is stupid. Yeah you're right, scrubs complain about everything, who cares what they say about balance if their reasons suck. The reasons against fertile and renewal (qz to a point as well) are good though; the only way to ignore those arguments is to reach into the depths of stupidity.

Tuna · Aug 09, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Spirits are NOT overpowered. If those guys fear Natural Renewal so much, why not just avoid using enchantment or hex? Mesmers, necro and monks have much more in their spell arsenals than just enchantment and hex. Whoever thinks spirits are overpowered is not trying hard enough to create an alternative team build.

You're a god damn strategic genius! Can I join you guild?