Curse

Autumn_Leaf · Aug 15, 2005, 09:14 PM // 21:14

i was wondering is a +5 armor on your more useful than a +30 hp.

Tuna · Aug 15, 2005, 09:18 PM // 21:18

In most cases, yes.

Ollj · Aug 15, 2005, 09:51 PM // 21:51

5 more armor equals 5-8 less damage for every 100 damage you take!
(~8 if you have 60+5 armor , ~5 if you have 85+8 armor)
(it doesnt matter if you take one big attack or serveral small attacks).

so its really simple, as long as you take less than ~600 damage (not all at once) the +30 health upgrade is better (for quick fights).
for longer battles the armor upgrade is better.

another thing is, the higher your AL is the more immune you are against armor penetration.
If you use skills that increase your AL use the health upgrade instead.

go here to the damage claculation image:

Autumn_Leaf · Aug 15, 2005, 09:56 PM // 21:56

just tried to put 10/10 on sword but to my surprise it would replace my +5 armor mod.
i thought that +30 hp replace +5 armor.

so is health the only option for the last upgrade slot and if its not what are the others.

10/10 sundering, +5 armor, or 3:1 vamp

Racthoh · Aug 15, 2005, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn_Leaf

just tried to put 10/10 on sword but to my surprise it would replace my +5 armor mod.
i thought that +30 hp replace +5 armor.

so is health the only option for the last upgrade slot and if its not what are the others.

10/10 sundering, +5 armor, or 3:1 vamp

I believe you are mistaken. My current sword is Zealous Long Sword of Defense. Defense being the +5 armour upgrade which is the suffix.

Even if that were the case, I'd throw on a +5 defense and +7 shelter for one nifty little defensive sword.

Zeru · Aug 15, 2005, 10:53 PM // 22:53

If you never drop between 1-30 hp then fortitude is essentially worthless. If it's pve your monks will be much happier you had the armor because it applies for every hit. Armor ignoring damage is generally not a huge issue either.

Elythor · Aug 15, 2005, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Search the forum a bit and you'll find this discussion beaten to death many times.

Conclution:

+5 armour > hp +30

Ensign · Aug 16, 2005, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

(~8 if you have 60+5 armor , ~5 if you have 85+8 armor)

Well that's a bit desceptive. It's going to be -8.3 damage per hundred damage you'd normally take, *after armor*. 100 damage before armor translates to 92 damage instead of 100 at 60 AL, or 60 damage instead of 65 at 85 AL, or 8 our of 100 if you extrapolate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

so its really simple, as long as you take less than ~600 damage (not all at once) the +30 health upgrade is better (for quick fights).
for longer battles the armor upgrade is better.

That's the entirely wrong conclusion.

First off, the break point against damage that cares about armor is 361 health. That's regardless of your total amount of armor. If you have more than 361 hit points, +armor is going to give you better spike resistance (from skills that use armor) than +health. At less than 361 HP +health is better.

For quick fights where you talk very little damage, +health modifiers do *nothing*. If you only suffer, say, 200 damage, that's 200 damage that needs to get healed whether you have 400 hit points or 1000 hit points. +armor would have at least reduced the amount of healing you'd need.

+health is useful for avoiding armor-ignoring damage spikes or mitigating death penalty. It's otherwise pretty marginal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

another thing is, the higher your AL is the more immune you are against armor penetration.
If you use skills that increase your AL use the health upgrade instead.

True to an extent, but again for different reasons. Higher AL is more vulnerable to armor penetration, as should be obvious.

If you have heavy armor, +health begins to be a preferable modifier because you're already pretty resilient to attacks that are reduced by armor - the real danger is getting hit by armor *ignoring* effects that chew right through your hit points. Thus using a +health modifier can be preferable as it shores up a weakness instead of a strength.

To answer the original question: +5 armor is a much better modifier for casters and otherwise low armor, high priority targets who will take heavy fire. It's also better for PvE tanks who want as much damage mitigation as possible. +health is a better modifier on PvP Warriors and Rangers who often have lower health totals from multiple superior runes, and are more worried about being taken out by a quick damage spike than mitigating damage over time.

Peace,
-CxE

Sharpsight · Aug 16, 2005, 04:44 AM // 04:44

I heard that +armor upgrades only protect you from the front, though. If that's true, then I expect the health upgrade may be better for casters (monks especially) who are not necessarily (and very often not) facing their attackers.

Entropius · Aug 16, 2005, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpsight

I heard that +armor upgrades only protect you from the front, though. If that's true, then I expect the health upgrade may be better for casters (monks especially) who are not necessarily (and very often not) facing their attackers.

This is a very, very important point.

As an Elementalist, I always take +health when I'm running Armor of Earth, since that spell makes me very resistant to any attack affected by armor anyway; it's the other stuff, mostly degen, that's murder.

When I'm playing a squishy Monk or Mesmer, though, I usually take +armor, since that'll give me more resilience to the sorts of attacks that crush them: the high-damage, armor-counting attacks.

derrtyboy69 · Aug 16, 2005, 05:13 AM // 05:13

For almost any class :+5 armor is best

For warriors: +30 hp is best. ask almost any warrior, and they'll tell you that health degen is what gets them. unless u have plague touch to give the condition back to your opponent bring the +hp (only as a warrior). i personally prefer +weapon mastery mods

Ollj · Aug 16, 2005, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

True to an extent, but again for different reasons. Higher AL is more vulnerable to armor penetration, as should be obvious.

no, no no, thats plain wrong. Armor penetration hurts weak armor more than strong armor.

on 60 AL 25 % penetradion does 30% more damage (compared to 0% penetration), on 140 AL 25% penetration does 20% more damage.

The difference is so small it doesnt really matter.

cookiehoarder · Aug 16, 2005, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

no, no no, thats plain wrong. Armor penetration hurts weak armor more than strong armor.

on 60 AL 25 % penetradion does 30% more damage (compared to 0% penetration), on 140 AL 25% penetration does 20% more damage.

The difference is so small it doesnt really matter.

Wrong. I can't go into the math like you guys do, but armor penetration works better on heavily armored targets.

Sharpsight · Aug 17, 2005, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Armor penetration works best on high armor targets. It's an exponential system where 40 armor is double/half damage.

Consider:
160 armor -> 25% penetration -> 120 armor = double damage
60 armor -> 25% penetration -> 45 armor = 29.7% more damage (taken from the chart at http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php)

Enough said.

Gerbill · Aug 17, 2005, 03:59 AM // 03:59

percentage.. the higher the number the more per percent...

so higher armor.. is more affected by armor penetration, if you compare them it'll still be stronger as a low armor which gets penetrated though, since it's all linear.

Sharpsight gives good examples for that.

just look at it, when the armor is 160, 40 armor is ignored cuz of the penetration. While with the 60 armor only 15 armor is ignored because of it.
This can never cross over as long as the circumstances are the same as in both armors get penetrated.

Take base damage 100 for example
with AL 60 that's 100 dmg, and with the penetration its 129.68
so that's 29.68% damage more.

With AL 80 that's 70.71 dmg, and with the penetration its 100
and that is 41.42% damage more.

The turning point between +5 armor more or +30 HP depends on the base damage aswel. so it's hard to say.

plus.. some skills just completely ignore armor.. so most people would go for the +30HP I'd say..

aB- · Aug 17, 2005, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpsight

I heard that +armor upgrades only protect you from the front, though. If that's true, then I expect the health upgrade may be better for casters (monks especially) who are not necessarily (and very often not) facing their attackers.

False. Armor that only protects you from the front is armor from a shield.

The +5 armor is superior to the +30 health upgrade. The armor is ALWAYS working to negate damage, whereas the +30 health only helps you when you fall below your previous maximum health. That is, unless you get under 30 health with the upgrade equipped, it does nothing.

People argue that damage over time is the only thing killing them, but lets face it. The only really significant health degeneration is at least 5, and the +30 health mod will save you for 3 more seconds, one and a half more seconds if you're facing a negative 10 degeneration.

powdahound · Aug 17, 2005, 04:22 AM // 04:22

With the number of casters and degen builds right now it definitely seems like the +hp is better, although I always use +5 in PvE.

Gerbill · Aug 17, 2005, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by aB-

False. Armor that only protects you from the front is armor from a shield.

The +5 armor is superior to the +30 health upgrade. The armor is ALWAYS working to negate damage, whereas the +30 health only helps you when you fall below your previous maximum health. That is, unless you get under 30 health with the upgrade equipped, it does nothing.

People argue that damage over time is the only thing killing them, but lets face it. The only really significant health degeneration is at least 5, and the +30 health mod will save you for 3 more seconds, one and a half more seconds if you're facing a negative 10 degeneration.

not only degens.
what about spells and skills the Blood Magic line uses ? Vampiric gaze and such ? ignores armor.
what about symbol of wrath, Balthazar's aura ?
what about Mesmer interrupt damage, or backfire, empathy hexes ?

they all ignore armor.

KuTeBaka · Aug 17, 2005, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerbill

not only degens.
what about spells and skills the Blood Magic line uses ? Vampiric gaze and such ? ignores armor.
what about symbol of wrath, Balthazar's aura ?
what about Mesmer interrupt damage, or backfire, empathy hexes ?

they all ignore armor.

the +30 hp wont come into effect until you get down to 29 health. by that time your pretty much gone. BTW, how many times have you seen necros running blood in pvp? mesmer damages is not as common as the normal damage.

Ollj · Aug 17, 2005, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuTeBaka

the +30 hp wont come into effect until you get down to 29 health....

this is so wrong.

btw I fixed my statement of armor penetration VS armor strength, wasnt clear enough.

"The higher a players AL is the lower is the foes boost by armor penetration in Percent-points, but high armor lowers the % of damage that goes trough more than armor penetration raises them. so its 10%+10% damage on 160 AL and 35%+100% on 60 AL (first number is penetration damage bonus)".

Im just saying that 35% damage bonus on 60 armor is IN TOTAL PERCENT POINTS more than 10% on 160 armor, while this bonus relative to the damage without penetration is less!

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuTeBaka

The turning point between +5 armor more or +30 HP depends on the base damage aswel. so it's hard to say.

base damage is just a simple factor in the damage calculation (including armor, levels, attribute, and penetration) so: 1*100 damage =2*50 damage=4*25 damage = ...