Curse

Kaleban · Aug 17, 2005, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Ok, I'm gonna end my comments in this thread, and try to be succinct.

First an example. I run a PvE N/W with PE. In normal play, I usually raise minions to help my allies, occasionally PEing in a big group. Not overpowered. However, I distinctly remember the Stone Summit Howlers, who also use PE. In those areas, I could not use minions for the most part, because I needed to PE a corpse before the Howlers did, thereby doing my job properly. So even in PvE, this tactic is used, funnily enough.

Lastly, I'll end it with a general question to those who think PE should be changed:

Can you justify a global skill change, affecting all players in both PvE and PvP, because the skill is grossly overpowered given an explicit set of circumstances?

I assume it would have to be global, since both PvE and PvP use the same code and ruleset, but I could be wrong. Think about it this way, what would happen if ANet changed the game so that only one instance of a ranger spirit could only ever be active at a time? So only one QZ, one NR, etc., regardless of who casts it? How drastic an effect would that have on those stupid 8 Ranger teams, IMHO a specialized team taking advantage of some rather glaring loopholes.

Anyways, I'm done in here. I don't care if you agree with my logic or not, I just hope that people look more closely at a situation before they cry or complain, and I have faith that ANet is composed of people with a slight bit more common sense.

Skyro · Aug 17, 2005, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

About the issue of whether or not its Tombs or Putrid that needs fixing. I will explain it very clearly with an example: Grenth's Balance (ironically, another Necro skill). Grenth's Balance was grossly overpowerd in GvG, though it definitely was not in Tombs. Does this mean it shouldn't have been nerfed and GvG just changed? Of course not. That was an option, but so was just nerfing Grenth's Balance, and that's what happened. The situation with tombs and putrid is the same.

Actually, it was very overpowered in quite a few PvE situations as well. Glint comes to mind. And even then that arguement is treading on thin ice because I don't believe they the developers intended the skill to interact in such a bizaare way (where'd it do as much damage up to your max hp, even if you're at full health). Plus it wasn't a complete nerf either, they lowered the cost of it from 15 to 10. Putrid I believe is working exactly as intended, which is why the actual effect of the skill I won't believe will be changed. They might do something about how corpse exploitation works but I doubt that as well.

Kaylee Ann · Aug 17, 2005, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

Kaylee Ann, I find it rather offensive that you criticize that I didn't offer a solution.

I find your attitude towards necros quite offensive. Come GvG us, and then lets hear how much necros suck. Otherwise just don't even bother. Christ, you don't even have a guild. You have no experience outside of puging in tombs, woo-pi-do. No wonder you get ran over by putrid.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Can you justify a global skill change, affecting all players in both PvE and PvP, because the skill is grossly overpowered given an explicit set of circumstances?

I don't see how it is an explicit set of circumstances. Yeah, it hurts in HoH. But in the slim circumstances someone runs it in GvG, it can do the same thing everyone is complaining about. Several of the maps have areas near the GL that are tightly enclosed also.

Aug 17, 2005, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Necros suck

seriously I think they are limited compared to other classes, but if you've got a build that rocks with necros I'd be glad to see it

Zelc · Aug 17, 2005, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Hmm, you have to be Necro Primary for the boots.

I really think you should step away from this thread until you understand the game a little better.

There's no need for an ad hominem attack, especially when you're wrong on this issue.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...27&postcount=3 :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Bloodstained Boots work in a similar fashion to Stoneskin Gauntlets - the latter raise all knockdown times under two seconds by one second, and Bloodstained Boots decrease all Necromancer corpse-targeting skills over three seconds by one second.

Observant readers will note that there are no corpse-targeting Necromancer spells with a casting time over three seconds.

Bloodstained Boots have no effect upon Putrid Explosion whatsoever.

ICURADik · Aug 17, 2005, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zelc

There's no need for an ad hominem attack, especially when you're wrong on this issue.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...27&postcount=3 :

Intresting... I guess Mes/Nec will start to rule to roost.

Scaphism · Aug 17, 2005, 07:06 AM // 07:06

I'm sorry I've been unable to make my point any more clearly.
Mesmers are not the counter to Putrid Explosion spam. Another necro with Putrid Explosion is. The fight between them is not a game of skill nor is it fun.
Diversion is a universal counter, and it is quite good. And while it will counter Putrid Spam, ask yourself what aspect is being countered? The ability to spam it, which is one of the suggestions that has been floating around for a while.

Two last points: Putrid Spam is not FOTM. It's not a new complaint.
Guilt does not work how you think. Try it- it will steal energy from the next offensive spell you cast and then you are free to cast again immediately. It will be only the slightest hiccup to someone spamming Putrid.

If anyone would like to continue discussing the topic in private, feel free to PM me.

Kaylee Ann · Aug 17, 2005, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Necros suck

seriously I think they are limited compared to other classes, but if you've got a build that rocks with necros I'd be glad to see it

OMGZ I HATE YOU! hahaha

See the difference between you saying it and some guildless person whose only experience is PuGing in tombs is, well I don't even need to bother. Although:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

E3-Necro/Ele
WPE-Necro/Ranger

For someone who thinks they suck, you sure do roll them in PvE a lot.

I don't even see why you people are arguing how over powered putrid is anyways. You really need to see the wand, conjure frost, tiger's fury e/r in action. Everyone will be crying nerf after seeing it in action.

arredondo · Aug 17, 2005, 07:32 AM // 07:32

The Guilt 'hiccup' allows the Necro on your team to beat a Putrid spammer if you want to use Putrid first. That's a fact. The only reason it was brought up was to show it isn't a mindless guessing game if you use what's available. it is merely one way of putting the use of corpses in your favor.

The other skills listed, like Power Block, accomplish even more if you want. A team is only held back by how badly (or not) they want to stop enemy Putrid use. They are not prevented from using Wells or any other corpse spells if they plan properly. Whether you choose to take control of the situation is up to you.

As far as needing a Necro to make the most of corpse manipulation, that's their specialty. You want in close melee, the Warrior is best. You want good team healing/protection, Monks are best at that. AoE magic nerfing is one of the current effective abilities of the Rangers. If you want to mess with corpses (other than rezzes), then you have to bring a Necro (or secondary). Otherwise, it's a weakness you and your team has accepted to deal with.

Kaylee Ann · Aug 17, 2005, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Sigh guilt.... I have never seen guilt used, EVER. I have NEVER had it casted on me either, through 100s of GvG matches and god only knows how many runs in tombs. It is bad enough that shame seems to ALWAYS be overlooked, rather a mesmer that actually brought guilt, and shame is a good hex at that.

Everyone talks about all this skill and positioning a necro needs to use putrid. If you throw a hex like guilt on my necro while he is in the middle of your group, I am going to use something even more devestating then putrid, shatter hex. Then he is going to putrid your faces anyways.

I mean it is great that everyone can read the the skill listings for every class and find one magical skill that has a chance at being effective, but in all practicality it just isn't going to happen in real application. It is hard enough finding a mesmer that actually knows how to use the 6 other skills on his/her bar besides diversion, rather one that can throw a very situationally dependant hex around with any effectiveness.

Nightwish · Aug 17, 2005, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Why not make putrid explosion does half damage to your own allies? That will make this skill less spammable, requiring more attention/care from the necro to use it rather than just mashing the button.

Aug 17, 2005, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee Ann

For someone who thinks they suck, you sure do roll them in PvE a lot.

E3 I was a complete noob.

WPE I played my N/R for one day just to grief Warriors, especially War/Mo combos. Ah, the 6 second recharge Strip Enchantment days. Back then necros were pretty badass.

arredondo · Aug 17, 2005, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Shatter Hex would be an awesome answer to Mesmer's use fo Guilt here if that were indeed the scenario. For the altar, any use of SH is great since it delivers AoE damage that's even stronger than PE.

But see what happend? The problem for my team then no longer is specifically Putrid Explosion from your team. A new problem is defined, and we have to determine how much energy and skill resources we need to devote to your strategy of gimping your SH removal. This happens through planning, and if that were eventually seen as a likely situation to deal with, we'd have to come ready with a Plan B.

Plan A is screw over any potential Putrid spammers so we can spam it ourselves... any number of ways can do it, but perhaps we choose Guilt (and use it in other scenarios too). You stopped it with SH. Maybe next time, we think its important to interrupt SH with, say Power Leak. A useful skill that's not uncommon for a Mesmer to have. Perhaps we're on our toes to use it in case our Guilt is screwed over again.

This isn't about what should happen, or what's likely to happen. It doesn't matter if no one else does it, because if it works for you then congrats on the win using any tactics you've come up with to get there. It's about whether you can or can't depending on how important it is to you to control a skill. The more counters used for tactics frequently seen, the more counter-strategies will be developed. If the problem isn't as big as people think it is, then makeshift strats on the fly should do just fine. The bottom line is, no one can say that there aren't options in trying to deal with Putrid spamming. Regardless if no one has bothered to do it, the fact remains that Guilt is but one of many possible ideas that have been shared here to deal with the topic of discussion. Find one that fits your team build best, or take your chances with what you have.

Grindwarrior · Aug 17, 2005, 10:17 AM // 10:17

So if there was a skill that did 1k dmg and killed pretty much everyone on the other team within a huge aoe with a 5s cast time, you would argue its balanced since a mesmer could interrupt it? So you can do it yourself first? What's funny is putrid actually comes close.

White Designs · Aug 17, 2005, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee Ann

I find your attitude towards necros quite offensive. Come GvG us, and then lets hear how much necros suck. Otherwise just don't even bother. Christ, you don't even have a guild. You have no experience outside of puging in tombs, woo-pi-do. No wonder you get ran over by putrid.....

Oh swell, what great criteria you have. The person doesn't have a guild, so they must be wrong, and then someone else says the exact same thing, and you happily agree. Since you insulted me, I'll insult you back. You have very poor reading skills, since you keep challenging people to GvG with you even though everyone in the topic has been discussing its effects on tombs, real bright. Not only that, you seem to have no set beliefs whatsoever. One moment you are so fervently established in your opinion and then you waver instantly. Just because I don't have a guild doesn't mean I didn't have one before, or that I don't know quite a few guilds and play with them regularly. You're decision to flame me based on this means 1.) you're stupid, 2.) you're a jackass.

Stuntastic · Aug 17, 2005, 04:00 PM // 16:00

PE and its connection with tombs is one similar to NR, in that it monstrously overshadows some useful wells and other corpse exploitation skills, making it compulsory to bring excess skills simply to use other ones. PE needs a moderate increase in recast time or another tweak, giving other exploitation skills a chance.

On the topic of Necromancers and their relative effectiveness, will have just as much going for them as the other classes, as soon as NR gets a moderate nerfing to significantly increase the the Curse line's effectiveness, as well as enchantments and hexes for other classes. However, if NR does in fact get nerfed, other hex/enchant removal spells might need a small reduction in recast times.

P.S. hO's Necromancers FTW

wongba · Aug 17, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

it's been mentioned repeatedly by those disagreeing w/ the effectiveness of putrid is that it's only effective on altar maps. while i disagree w/ that, the fact that altar maps constitute both the courtyard and hoh maps means that, whatever putrid's effectiveness, it is increased significantly at the highest level of play. if u want to hold the hoh, u must have an answer for putrid and the most effective answer is to putrid urself.

if u don't see putrid often, u aren't playing against effective teams.

Kaylee Ann · Aug 17, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Shatter Hex would be an awesome answer to Mesmer's use fo Guilt here if that were indeed the scenario. For the altar, any use of SH is great since it delivers AoE damage that's even stronger than PE.

But see what happend? The problem for my team then no longer is specifically Putrid Explosion from your team. A new problem is defined, and we have to determine how much energy and skill resources we need to devote to your strategy of gimping your SH removal.

Actually you have 2 problems. One, I am still going to spam your face with putrid because you are relying on one hex to try and gimp my necro. Your one hex vrs atleast 3-4 copies of hex removal on top of the occasion that we run a mesmer who is almost always going to bring shatter hex by default. Two, yeah, you get to deal with shatter hex on top of putrid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

Oh swell, what great criteria you have. The person doesn't have a guild, so they must be wrong, and then someone else says the exact same thing, and you happily agree. Since you insulted me, I'll insult you back. You have very poor reading skills, since you keep challenging people to GvG with you even though everyone in the topic has been discussing its effects on tombs, real bright. Not only that, you seem to have no set beliefs whatsoever. One moment you are so fervently established in your opinion and then you waver instantly. Just because I don't have a guild doesn't mean I didn't have one before, or that I don't know quite a few guilds and play with them regularly. You're decision to flame me based on this means 1.) you're stupid, 2.) you're a jackass.

I don't keep challenging people to GvG, I keep challenging YOU. If you haven't noticed already, I keep challenging your opinion on how necros suck. I bring up your lack of experience because you can't make a valid argument what-so-ever on a skill just because it works in one scenario. You came on these forums red faced with white knuckles after your team got completely wiped by putrid, making rash assumptions on a skill that has been in the spotlight forever. Using your line of thought, we should completely wipe every AoE in the game because they can clear an alter just as well in 'certain situations,' because you don't have 2 cents of common sense and can't use the timely tactic of spreading out and not have your entire damn team stand on the alter in the first place. The only time I have ever been wiped by putrid is because we were all on the alter trying to body block heros. And guess what, we deserved it.

I also really don't see how my opinions have wavered in any way too. I don't think necros suck, and I have never said otherwise. I think under NR the curse line is indeed worthless, but that is besides the point. And one thing I do think, which is the same thing that anyone with 2 shreds of common sense will agree with, IS THAT PUTRID SERIOUSLY INHIBITS THE USE OF THE REST OF THE CORPSE USING SPELLS. That is, and always has been the issue at hand. The fact that it can be devestating in an alter environment is really besides the point. EoE is 100000000000x more devestating and I don't see 100 threads based on the use of it. Assuming NR gets whacked by the nerfbat, when everyone goes back to making use of enchantments and hexes, I am sure with your line of thinking there will be an influx of people crying about getting owned by shatter hex because they were too stupid to figure out it might not be the best idea to hex the ghost while their team had the brilliant idea of clogging up the alter.

White Designs · Aug 17, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Kaylee Ann, making you should stop lying, or get off drugs so reality doesn't distort itself for you anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee Ann

I don't keep challenging people to GvG, I keep challenging YOU.

You challenged me once. You challenged another poster once. And then you decide to miss out on the real point, which is that what a Necro does in GvG is besides the point when this is about Putrid and Tombs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee Ann

You came on these forums red faced with white knuckles after your team got completely wiped by putrid, making rash assumptions on a skill that has been in the spotlight forever.

Sure, start making up stuff. That's really believable, especially since I mentioned how I have a Necro on my team every time with Putrid, and I've said repeatedly how the only counter to it is another Putrid. Its really likely I didn't take the skill and tried to counter it another way and those had my team 'completely wiped by putrid', that's really likely. (In case you can't tell, since you seem to miss out on so much, I'm being sarcastic.) If you had bothered to think before assuming you would understand that I am winning with Putrid. The point is that every team has to have it, and I don't like running the same builds over and over again because every one requires a Necro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee Ann

And one thing I do think, which is the same thing that anyone with 2 shreds of common sense will agree with, IS THAT PUTRID SERIOUSLY INHIBITS THE USE OF THE REST OF THE CORPSE USING SPELLS. That is, and always has been the issue at hand.

You say that yet you miss the underlying issue, since you combine that statement with one dismissing its devestating effects on altars. Like I said before, if the altar-effect didn't matter, no one would use it, since Necrotic Transversal is better in every way at pure corpse denial. Its usefulness is because of the altar effect, a danger which, if a team ignores, they are likely to lose because of it. This leads every team to take a Necro of their own to get Putrids off. That's why the rest of the corpse spells are so unusuable. If Putrid didn't exist, they would instantly become much more viable since Necrotic's main effect sucks, so a team using it would be purely using it for corpse denial. But since its so bad at everything besides that, it would be an issue of each team balancing whether the effect was worth taking an otherwise useless skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee Ann

Using your line of thought, we should completely wipe every AoE in the game because they can clear an alter just as well in 'certain situations,' because you don't have 2 cents of common sense and can't use the timely tactic of spreading out and not have your entire damn team stand on the alter in the first place.

Find me another AoE skill in the game where its best counter is to take the skill yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee Ann

I also really don't see how my opinions have wavered in any way too. I don't think necros suck, and I have never said otherwise.

You flame me for saying one thing, then act accepting when another poster says essentially the same thing. In fact, it is the same thing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Necros suck

Kaylee Ann · Aug 17, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

You challenged me once. You challenged another poster once. And then you decide to miss out on the real point, which is that what a Necro does in GvG is besides the point when this is about Putrid and Tombs.

Wow, and look at that, the other guy I said that too had the same view of necros and how they suck/or are weak and less usefull. Go figure....

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

Sure, start making up stuff. That's really believable, especially since I mentioned how I have a Necro on my team every time with Putrid, and I've said repeatedly how the only counter to it is another Putrid. Its really likely I didn't take the skill and tried to counter it another way and those had my team 'completely wiped by putrid', that's really likely. (In case you can't tell, since you seem to miss out on so much, I'm being sarcastic.) If you had bothered to think before assuming you would understand that I am winning with Putrid. The point is that every team has to have it, and I don't like running the same builds over and over again because every one requires a Necro.

Amazing how the ranger teams can hold the halls for hours without using a necro. Wow, fertile season negates putrid spikes.... No..... Looks like 'every team' doesn't need a necro to me. Amazing how I also countered a putrid chain reaction with one spirit, and the common sense not to bunch up...

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

You say that yet you miss the underlying issue, since you combine that statement with one dismissing its devestating effects on altars. Like I said before, if the altar-effect didn't matter, no one would use it, since Necrotic Transversal is better in every way at pure corpse denial. Its usefulness is because of the altar effect, a danger which, if a team ignores, they are likely to lose because of it. This leads every team to take a Necro of their own to get Putrids off. That's why the rest of the corpse spells are so unusuable. If Putrid didn't exist, they would instantly become much more viable since Necrotic's main effect sucks, so a team using it would be purely using it for corpse denial. But since its so bad at everything besides that, it would be an issue of each team balancing whether the effect was worth taking an otherwise useless skill.

I know atleast one of the guilds currently on the first page of the ladder use putrid. So, your argument of the 'alter-effect' and no one using the skill outside of that is a worthless one. I have also already proved your theory on every team in the game requiring a necro to win wrong, because ranger teams do it all the time with little or no problems, so out the window goes that argument. And look at that, "That's why the rest of the corpse spells are so unusuable. If Putrid didn't exist, they would instantly become much more viable." Good job, you just came to the conclusion that everyone has been saying for months now. Hence why people have been saying for ages that that putrid needs a timer/longer cast time so that other skills can actually be used....

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

Find me another AoE skill in the game where its best counter is to take the skill yourself.

Every single corpse exploitation skill in the game? Lemmie guess, if putrid gets nerfed we will have to get rid of all of those too...

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

You flame me for saying one thing, then act accepting when another poster says essentially the same thing. In fact, it is the same thing:

Yes, I did flame you and not him. The difference is Black has over a year worth of playing this game and testing everything about it. You don't even come close. So if he wants to make the opinion that necros suck, that is fine, it is a valid one because he has tested and battered the class into oblivion. You on the other hand have done nothing but cry about putrid and come to the conclusion that necros suck with very little experience in using them.